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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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I've carried a draw with a locker on each end as a std piece of my rack for a good while. Learned that from my subman apprenticeship with an ex YOSAR guy. Because sometimes (high first bolt, last piece before a runnout, etc) you absolutely cannot afford to have that piece unclip. 90% of the time I reach the anchor with it still racked and it goes into the anchor, but it has given me confidence/peace of mind many, many times.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 31, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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I've carried a draw with a locker on each end as a std piece of my rack for a good while. He he - I have a couple, a friend calls them my "granny draws." Although I have to admit I pretty much only bring them on new routes, they are a very nice confidence boost when you don't know where the next drilling stance will be.
As far as this accident, one thing I've done for years is to double up rope-end biners on key pieces particularly early in the pitch. Typically I place a cam (with it's biner), then clip a tripled sling to it, extend the sling, and double up the rope end biner. Originally it was just because it seemed dumb having a free biner hanging on the cam and I didn't want to bother taking the extra biner, but by now I do it pretty regularly. Of course since we don't know what happened, who knows maybe the cam-end biner on a long sling can pop off too (seems less likely).
When I don't have a granny draw, on key pieces I sometimes double up draws (of slightly different lengths on bolts since otherwise the biners tend to jam up in the hanger).
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WBraun
climber
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This topic shows that there are very subtle things that are not always obvious but show up after quite some time and thru experience.
In Gary's video example above after watching it I spotted a subtle n00b mistake of just clipping in without understanding the ergonomics of the how all the components interact under dynamic conditions which could cause a problem.
N00bs generally just clip in according to habits they've developed.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I've always done my "granny" quickdraws your new way, Dingus. Maybe it's operator error but I still get that twist sometimes.
Smoking duck, I'm an eternal n00b, always trying to think about what's happening, and praying that my thinking is OK. It's a tough sport.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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That video demonstrates why Noobs have so many accidents. That video is a DISSERVICE to teaching people what to do!
Sh#t happens when you over-complicate what is very straight-forward. There is a lot of weird sh#t in that video.
That video should NEVER be shown to a new climber.
EDIT: The intent is good in the video, I understand that. Maybe it's just because I hate someone telling me 'the right way' to do something.
Everybody does things differently in such a dynamic environment. The focus should be on SAFETY and the video just glossed over that aspect.
Clipping in statically to the anchors while you do the rest of the work is key, especially while you untie and re-thread the rope. I never do the silly overhand to retain the rope, and I have never dropped the rope yet.
Maybe I'm just stupid.
When you untie w/o a backup overhand you hold on to that line like you're going to fall and make damn sure it gets threaded immediately.
Trying to make things so idiot-proof turns you into a weird drone. Just clean the f*#king anchor and don't drop the rope!
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WBraun
climber
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I didn't see anything weird.
She didn't do anything wrong.
She was just a habitual anchor engineering person ......
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Bad Climber
climber
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I think the vid is fine. My habit has been to clip in with a permanently attached sling in my harness that uses full-strength loops, the end threaded through my harness, locker on the other end. Once locked into the anchor, I pull up a loop and clip it in. Then I untie, thread, and retie and drop the loop. I think having a backup looped tied in is a reasonable precaution.
This overall thread, however, is making me re-think skinny slings. Does this kind of unclipping happen on 9/16th slings? These used to be my go-to's, and now I carry a coupled of tied ones to leave at rap anchors if bailing.
BAd
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sh#t happens when you over-complicate what is very straight-forward
Agreed, bluey. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so try to keep it simple. Like the Duck says, she didn't do anything wrong, but it can be done simpler.
I always tie a quick overhand and clip to my harness when untying from the rope, takes a second and prevents embarrassment, or worse.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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more to the point: How did the rope break?
It seems a lot of you are taking actions based on a quite incomplete and inaccurate history of what happened?
The flutter frequency of wire gate binners is higher than binners of solid gates so less time they are open.
the most parsimonious scenario is the RP pulled, the slings were not looped through the biners and the rope was cut by the ? Rock?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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The rope did not break or get cut. It was intact.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I think DMT's pictures explain a lot about what can happen. I've certainly seen the loop over the gate like that. I have also noticed that some people used a different racking technique to me, and when I use my regular extending method on such a sling, the result can be a totally loose biner. It's usually very obvious, just frustrating, but if I have any kind of loop on the biners after extending, I reclip cleanly or give that biner a huge pull to ensure the loops aren't hiding something unexpectedly deadly.
TE
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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I don't see what's wrong with the video. Can someone explain what is overly complicated with the system shown?
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vector
climber
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Back to the accident analysis:
I have always tripled my slings as Dingus and Kos advise, but this is not fool-proof: if you drop only one loop instead of 2 to lengthen the sling, and don't pull out sharply to reveal your error, you may be left with the perfect set-up for this accident - enough sling-bunching to look clipped, but a sling that is completely unclipped from the biner at one end. (There are 2 other less potentially hazardous alternatives, depending on which loop you drop.)
Lockers, on critical placements, or opposing biners, for sure.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Reading Vector's discussion, I totally concur with that. Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened. Try this at home!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened. Try this at home!
I know what you mean, but you fail to see my point.
Do things right in the field, don't f*#k up!
Stop practicing, start climbing. And climb smart!
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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From Crunch:
The two biners stayed attached to the rope.
This is one part that is unclear. Before the rescuers loaded Wayne into the litter, the rope was cut short by the rescuers as it was wrapped around him and all tangled up. Minutes after the rescue left, the two Neutrino's were found sitting at the base. So they could have been attached to the rope...or not. We will never know the answer to this.
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Rolfr
Social climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
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[quote]The extended slings becoming undone theory might be the correct one. I always do a double check when extending slings from trad quickdraws. I've had too many that screwed up.
I think I'll go back to my old school ways and just keep the long slings hung over my shoulder. Keeping it simple.
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GI Joe
Trad climber
Travis AFB CA
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The video points out an obvious susceptibility that we all just hope never bites us. (A wire gate doesn't help at all there BTW.) Doubling & reversing the biners or using a locker prevents it no matter what but of course this is just Monday morning quarterbacking the accident. The best thing anyone ever said to me about this actually came in a pre-mission brief: "nothing we do is routine." (I'm a flyer - USAF.) Be careful everybody...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Three points:
1 - Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened YES. This takes a little extra time but it buys a lot of piece of mind. Why do we like plain old slings? Not just because they are less expensive and more versatile. They are also less likely to lever the pro out than a sewn "dogbone" if a directional pull lifts the sling. This is especially true with nuts. Or unstable cam placements.
2 - Wiregate vs solid. From the engineering perspective neither is a "better" design. It depends on too many factors and cases. Take the problem of the gate "slamming" open. If it's against the rock as in the video, all other parts of the 'biner being equal (which they are NOT), the solid gate will certainly open further as it has more mass. Unless of course the springs are different tensions, the masses of the 'biners are different, etc. You can only draw a conclusion by testing one design against another under many conditions and several samples.
3 - Wiregate vs solid when the rope or sling is looped back over the opening end of the biner. Again it depends on the design. The "classic" oval has a smooth transition between the gate and the body. This is less likely to snag either rope or sling.
Wiregates, by necessity have a protruding nose where the wire closes. This could catch the rope/sling as it travels down the gate and direct the forces to open the gate.
Some modern solid gate biners also have the protruding nose.
I also don't like the curved solid gate biners as I think they would tend to pull the gate open if the rope or sling were twisted.
From what I've read about the accident and reading everyone's comments, it appears to me this dreadful accident resulted from the slings looping and opening the gates. But that's just my opinion.
Carrying some lighter lockers - or doubling rope end biners - for critical placements begins to sound like a good idea.
one more point: Yes, we are more frequently hearing of such accidents. I think largely because there are many more climbers and many of them are climbing at high grades. I truly believe the sport is getting safer for the same level of climbing.
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