Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
marky
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2006 - 12:34am PT
|
Just got back from running hills, feeling creaky. Is GS legit? How do others deal with not bad/not great knees?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 12:46am PT
|
knees are complex.
duh.
sure roy.
I take all the supplements.
All of them.
I don't see any improvement from any of it but do it anyway.
Muscle and tendon relationships seem to be very important.
Creaky is called crepitus.
I have tight illio tibial bands (outside hip to knee area), which cause poor patellar tracking thus patellar tendinitis. Which hurts.
I have a styrofoam foam roller which works wonders.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:03am PT
|
I'm with Tar. I don't know if it helps but I've had "bad wheels" for a couple of decades now. Braces are incorporated often...
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:22am PT
|
The knee is the most vulnerable (and valuable?) joint in the human body.
When my joints feel sore, I drink lots of milk, and it seems to help. Psychosomatic? I don't know.
|
|
rradakovits
Sport climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:37am PT
|
I use the same foam roal thingy, works great for me too!
Glucosamine in one recent study didn't have any effect, but it was Glucosamine alone, it is commonly taken in combination with MSM (which is supposed to increase uptake I think) and Chondroitin, so it is possible that it would have an effect. I take the GS+MSM+Chondroitin pills for my fingers/shoulder, err... knees/hips etc, etc...
|
|
DD
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:38am PT
|
There is a growing body of research documenting the beneficial properties of glucosamine sulfate. PubMed is a good place to go for technical info on related studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/
keywords: "knees glucosamine sulfate"
One of my favorites was a study done at the Prague Institute of Rheumatology and published in the Archives of Internal Medicine showing that long term use of glucosamine sulfate actually alters the structure of the knee, significantly reducing pain and degradation of the knee joint. This was confirmed by radiographic analysis.
There are alot of interesting articles on the subject that are best accessed through a library system with access to PubMed.
As a fellow sufferer of knee pain, I take 3000mg/day glucosamine sulfate, 1200mg/day chondroitin sulfate, 1000mg/day of MSM, 2000mg/day of microlactin (dairy derived antibodies that reduce inflammation)and 400mg/day of grapeseed phytosome (a strong antioxidant that inhibits enzymes that degrade connective tissue.)
This regimen helps reduce my aches after a long day of climbing.
What else do you guys do for sore knees?
Dan
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 05:52am PT
|
Dan
Everything that I have read on glucosamine sulfate (not glucosamine hydrochloride, which is not as near as effective, according to most research that I have read) suggests or recommends 1,500mg a day, so I am wondering why you take 3,000mg/day.
I take 1,500 mg per day in liquid form (which absorbs far better that tablets or pills). I use to take 1,200mg/day chondroitin sulfate (the recommended dosage) but I haven’t found it here in Ireland on its own, it is usually combined with glucosamine sulfate in tablet/pill form coupled with manganese. Trouble is, the pills are 500mg GS, 400mg CS and 5mg manganese, so to take the daily recommended dosage (1,500mg GS, 1,200mg CS) you need to take three which means the daily input of manganese is 15mg – the FDA says that the daily max is 11mg, so I stopped taking the pills.
MSM, isn’t that derived from DMSO? I thought research showed that DSMO wasn’t good in the long-term.
Marky, perhaps it is psychological but glucosamine sulfate helps my arthritis in my neck. I know other people that swear on glucosamine sulfate but perhaps it is psychological. That said, and while more research needs to be done, there is mounting evidence that not only does glucosamine sulfate retard cartilage deterioration, but may actually help to reverse the process and help build new cartilage.
|
|
doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 09:16am PT
|
most of my patients prefer percocet, its cheeper
|
|
Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 10:27am PT
|
I started taking it about 6 years ago. I take the Glucosamine Sulfate/Chondroitan/MSM tabs.
The effects for me are pretty subtle. They don't take all my arthritis pain away, but if I stop taking it for a month I notice that I'm in more pain than before.
I wait for Puritan's Pride to have a sale. Otherwise this stuff is just too freaking expensive.
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
shakedown street
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 11:47am PT
|
My older dog has hip dysplasia and has trouble getting up and gets sore after hiking (she moves real slow). After talking to someone who knows better they recommended liquid glucosamine with chondroitin & msm. After a couple weeks I noticed a little more giddy up in her movements and after a few months on it she's seems alot better so I guess that could rule out the psychosomatic theory. The ingredients are basic so if it's cheaper than the human stuff it might be worth looking into.
It runs about $31 bucks for 36oz. and lasts a month. liquidhealthinc.com
WOOF!
|
|
Mom
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
|
Patrick --- the reason to take more than 1500 units per day is that what drs and labels don't tell you is that the doseage for the glucosamine is based on BODY WEIGHT!! AND MUSCLE MASS!! I had stellar results with relief from knee and hip pain after upping my daily dosage to 4000 units; that is until I developed an ancient allergy to sulfur and all it relatives. Now I'm taking 5000 units of omega 3 fish oil with good results too. My 79 year old mother upped her intake of omega 3 to 4000 units and is able to bend her knees after not being able to do so for many years!! By the way, I've asked drs for help in taking these supplements and they just shake their head and prescribe codine....there is a lot to be said for 'natural remedies'. And according to my chirpractor daughter, all glucasamine is the same whether cheap or expensive.
|
|
John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
|
Although medical/scientitic data might say otherwise, the stuff really works for me. I have been using for a couple of years now, 1500mg a day and its made a big difference. You have nothing to lose other than a few bucks in giving it a go. Try at least 3 months before deciding whether to stop or go.
|
|
Pretty Much
climber
San Jose
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
|
I took glucosamine (no sulfate due to shellfish allergy) for about 3 weeks to try to help with some tendonitis. It made every joint in my body hurt - knees, elbows, shoulders, wrists. couldn't climb, run, bike or lift weights, so I stopped. It felt like anywhere i had ever had soreness started hurting again all at the same time.
Maybe there is a 'pain' period before it starts working ... I have heard of good results from several other people.
-Jeff
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
|
As I understand it, you need at least one month of taking it before you see any noticeable results, though people's reactions vary of course.
Mom, that sounds reasonable. Perhaps I will up my dosage seeing as how I am am a bit 'bigger' (ahem, than say a few years ago), read rounder.
Pat the Paunch
Anybody with more info on MSM (I'll google it at some later date)?
|
|
Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
|
The body takes a real pounding when running hills. Consider changing your training...run up the hill, walk down.
|
|
Richard Large
climber
where you least expect
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
|
Regardless of what supplememt I take, a long day of hard exercise makes me hurt. For relief I recommend the strongest pain reliever you can buy without a prescription.... heroin.
|
|
G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2006 - 05:25pm PT
|
Tequila seems most effective for the treatment of my aches and pains.
Actually, if your aches are from cartalidge problems then you might see improvement from these drugs. If you have other issues like bad tendons/ligaments (Roy!) then don't expect any improvement in symptoms from this treatment.
|
|
DD
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2006 - 03:24am PT
|
Patrick,
"Everything that I have read on glucosamine sulfate (not glucosamine hydrochloride, which is not as near as effective, according to most research that I have read) suggests or recommends 1,500mg a day, so I am wondering why you take 3,000mg/day."
I've also noticed that researchers seem to be playing around with doses of about 1500mg/day. No good reason for me taking more... It just seems to work a little better.
I'm not too familar with DMSO or MSM but found an interesting article on the two.
http://www.arthritis.org/resources/arthritistoday/1999_archives/1999_11_12explorations.asp
As you mention, glucosamine sulfate may build new cartilage.... this is what I'm hoping for.
d
|
|
cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2006 - 04:06am PT
|
From what I've read about GS, I decided it was worth trying. But from what I've read on Chondroitin Sulfate (and you can google this yourself), it seems it needs to be low molecular weight in order to have any real effect, and the low molecular weight stuff is quite expensive. The Chondroitin in Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo's is usually high molecular weight, and the Chondroitin is the most expensive part. So I avoid buying the combo formulas and get just Glucosamine by itself.
HOWEVER, I think there is too much emphasis on taking pills and not enough on prevention. I would guess that many, many people have knee pain (and some likely are suffering irreversable cartilage damage) due to tightness in their lateral quads/IT bands. These can be tight without your feeling it (especially if you've just ramped up your training or just started running hills.)
As Tarbuster mentions above, a foam roller can work pretty well to loosen this up. Foam rollers are inexpensive and widely available. Best purchase I ever made.
See this link on how the roller is used:
http://www.smiweb.org/massage_clinic/pdf/roller_guide.pdf
My recommendation would be to not just roll on the IT band, but also the glutes (butt), quads, and calves, as tightness in any of those can contribute to knee pain.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!