Glucosamine Sulfate for creaky knees

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 21 - 40 of total 55 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 29, 2006 - 11:06am PT
My reading indicates the chondroitin effects water retention in the cartilage, which helps the glucosamine to do its rebuild, thus the combo.

Lisa runs runs runs, is a national mtn running champ.
THE USTAF Masters Champ in fact.
She is constantly doing maintenance.
Ice,
Stretch,
PAYS for lots of rigorous massage.
Lately, we are both using a gal who does tendon attachment oriented massage, (less deep muscle), and Lisa says this really keeps her out of trouble. It ain’t feel good massage; much more a corrective approach.


BTW, that foam roller pulled me out of decades worth of patellar tendon related knee pain, felt just below the kneecap, like a stabbing pain: the only near miracle stategy I have ever encountered.
(except for Short Timer's Tequila Remedy, which werks wunders)


Here’s a book to get:
“Treat Your Own Knees”
Jim Johnson, P.T.
http://www.hunterhouse.com

Here's Teh Good Livin'!
Cheers,
Roy


Kiko

climber
California
Jul 29, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
The buck stops at the Cochrane reviews when it comes to scientific questions...

http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD002946/frame.html

Plain language summary
Does glucosamine work for treating osteoarthritis?
This Cochrane review looked at the best studies done to date on glucosamine. Twenty studies tested over 2500 people with osteoarthritis of the knee or hip. Most of the studies were 2 to 3 months long. To test how well glucosamine works, researchers compared people who had either glucosamine (as a pill or an injection), fake pills or injections, or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID).

What is osteoarthritis and glucosamine?
Osteoarthritis (OA) is the most common form of arthritis that can affect the hands, hips, shoulders and knees. In OA, the cartilage that protects the ends of the bones breaks down and causes pain and swelling. Drug and non-drug treatments are used to relieve pain and/or swelling. Glucosamine can be found naturally in the body and is one of the building blocks of cartilage. It is thought that taking glucosamine supplements may help stop cartilage breakdown, build cartilage and decrease swelling. But there is debate about its effects.

How well does glucosamine work?
Pain: The high quality studies showed that pain improved about the same whether people took glucosamine or fake pills. If all of the studies are examined (including low quality and old studies), then glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills.


Pain may improve by 13 more points on a scale of 0 to 100 with glucosamine than with fake pills.
Studies testing only the Rotta brand of glucosamine (including low quality and old studies) showed that glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills.

Function: The high quality studies show that glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills when measured by one type of scale, but improved the same amount as fake pills when measured by another scale. This result is the same whether all of the studies (including low quality and old studies) or whether studies using the Rotta brand of glucosamine are analysed.
10b4me

Trad climber
California
Jul 29, 2006 - 08:09pm PT
I've tried glucosamine chondroitin, and MSM in the pill form. has not worked for me. I will give a shot at the liquid type.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 1, 2006 - 05:53am PT
Tarbuster, I’ve read that chondroitin does help in fluid retention in joints, thus helping in lubricating the joint, but I haven’t read that it helps the effectiveness of GS. I’ll google that at some point.

That foam roller looks cool. I’m going to try and find one here in Dublin.
Wade Icey

Social climber
the EPC
Aug 1, 2006 - 11:34am PT
Glucosamine has worked well for (My) various joint and tendon attachment/detachment issues. So well I began doubling recommended dosages. That's when the Kidney Stones really started rollin'. I'll take Creaky over pissing broken glass, thank you. YMMV.

Two glasses of water for every beer,

Wade
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
what about GS for arthritic dogs?? anyone? have a dog that's gotten the Big A
hossjulia

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Absolutely! I think the Zukes Glucosamine treats are a great source. Salmon oil for the Omega fatty acids is key too. Also grain free dog food. I never thought feeding grain based foods to dogs was a great idea, seems I was correct. Some grain sensitivity could be the culprit of your dogs creaky joints.



joint pain can come from many sources.

Mine seems to have almost stopped now that I'm more aware of a touchy thyroid and pretty significant hypoglycemia. The hypoglycemia makes me stupid and I forget to drink water, compounding the problem. Last bad episode took a few days to get over.

Glucosamine never did anything for me personally except make my guts hurt.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Foam roller IT band, quads, hammys will do a lot to alleviate tension. I'd be in a wheelchair without my roller, it hurts so good!

Glucosamine/msm/chondroitin joint complex requires at least a month of taking it before your system is "loaded" & you can begin to benefit from it. I've been taking it for years & only notice a difference when I'm without for a few days & it starts raining cuz my joints are creaky.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Well, I've recently started taking it again along with the chondroitin. I've got arthritis in my feet and back. Not expecting a miracle cure, but I am trying to stave it off or at least maintain it where it's at. I've had to ramp up very gradually with glucosamine. Too much too quick and it messes up your tummy.

I've actually religiously taken MSM alone over the past few years. An added on benefit in addition to some joint pain relief being freed from 10 years of chronic headaches so I won't be dropping MSM any time soon. I will say the MSM is way easier on your stomach too. I do fish oil as well .

Kinda the same thing some people have described.. I don't really notice unless I stop taking it for a while and everything gets way creakier.

Never heard that MSM is related to DMSO BTW. I just googled around and didn't find any evidence of that.

Edit: did some more research.. it is an oxidized form of DMSO.. interesting.. didn't know that.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:14am PT
Maidy, get your GD knees Xrayed. period. You are going to need a baseline, coming up.
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Jun 20, 2013 - 01:53am PT
From what I've been told and read many knee problems in athletes stem from hip instability. Work on strengthening the glute medius. Do heel slides (lay on the floor on your side with your lower back against the wall and knees a little bent, then point your upper foot towards the ceiling and raise your leg as hi as you can, keeping the heel against the wall. Slowly lower and repeat about 15 times. Flip around and do both sides. Do em every day if you can.) they're hard to describe perfectly but you can look them up. Athletes who do a solid hip stabilty program reduce knee injuries by a huge amount. The problem is the glute med is hard to target and often so underworked it doesn't even really fire at all.
There's good info on this online, at least check it out.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 20, 2013 - 02:21am PT
There was a recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine that may be of interest to the audience:

Surgery versus Physical Therapy for a Meniscal Tear and Osteoarthritis


Jeffrey N. Katz, M.D., Robert H. Brophy, M.D., Christine E. Chaisson, M.P.H., Leigh de Chaves, P.T., O.C.S., Brian J. Cole, M.D., M.B.A., Diane L. Dahm, M.D., Laurel A. Donnell-Fink, M.P.H., Ali Guermazi, M.D., Ph.D., Amanda K. Haas, M.A., Morgan H. Jones, M.D., M.P.H., Bruce A. Levy, M.D., Lisa A. Mandl, M.D., M.P.H., Scott D. Martin, M.D., Robert G. Marx, M.D., Anthony Miniaci, M.D., Matthew J. Matava, M.D., Joseph Palmisano, M.P.H., Emily K. Reinke, Ph.D., Brian E. Richardson, P.T., M.S., S.C.S., C.S.C.S., Benjamin N. Rome, B.A., Clare E. Safran-Norton, P.T., Ph.D., O.C.S., Debra J. Skoniecki, M.S.N., A.N.P., Daniel H. Solomon, M.D., M.P.H., Matthew V. Smith, M.D., Kurt P. Spindler, M.D., Michael J. Stuart, M.D., John Wright, M.D., Rick W. Wright, M.D., and Elena Losina, Ph.D.

DISCUSSION
In this seven-center randomized, controlled trial involving symptomatic patients 45 years of age or older with a meniscal tear and imaging evidence of mild-to-moderate knee osteoarthritis, there were no significant differences in the magnitude of improvement in functional status and pain after 6 and 12 months between patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with postoperative physical therapy and patients assigned to a standardized physical-therapy regimen. These results were achieved with a 30% rate of crossover to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy at 6 months. At 12 months, among 169 participants (not all of whom provided data at the 1-year evaluation), the rate of crossover to surgery was 35%.

In a prior small, single-center, randomized, controlled trial comparing arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with standardized physical therapy for symptomatic patients with a meniscal tear and knee osteoarthritis, the two groups had similar functional outcomes at 6 months, and the similarity between the groups persisted through 5 years of follow-up.8,9 To our knowledge, this is the first large, multicenter, randomized, controlled trial to examine the efficacy of arthroscopic partial meniscectomy as compared with a standardized physical-therapy regimen.

Surgical randomized, controlled trials present methodologic challenges, including crossover from one group to the other.24,25 To account for crossovers, we defined an additional outcome a priori in which patients were deemed to have a successful treatment response if they had improvement of at least 8 points on the WOMAC physical-function scale (a clinically important difference) and they did not cross over from their assigned treatment. A total of 67% of patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy met this threshold for success, as compared with 44% of patients treated with physical therapy alone. We acknowledge, however, that because the treatment assignments were not blinded, and because crossover could not occur in the arthroscopic-partial-meniscectomy group once the surgery had been performed, this secondary analysis was vulnerable to bias.

Several limitations of the study warrant discussion. First, because we enrolled only 26% of eligible patients, our findings must be generalized cautiously. The most frequent reason that patients declined enrollment was a strong preference for one treatment or the other. Since patients' preferences may be associated with treatment outcome, our trial may be vulnerable to selection bias. Participating surgeons may not have referred potentially eligible patients because they were uncomfortable randomly assigning these patients to treatment; this form of selective enrollment may also create bias.26 Second, because the trial was conducted in academic referral centers, the findings should be generalized carefully to community settings. Third, we did not formally assess the fidelity of the physical therapists or surgeons to the standard intervention protocols. Finally, our study was not blinded, since our investigative group did not consider a sham comparison group feasible.

These limitations notwithstanding, the results of our trial may help guide management in the care of patients with knee symptoms, a meniscal tear, and imaging evidence of osteoarthritis. Our findings suggest that both arthroscopic partial meniscectomy and referral to physical therapy — with an opportunity to consider arthroscopic partial meniscectomy if substantial improvements are not achieved — are likely to result in considerable improvement in functional status and knee pain over a 6-to-12-month period.

Given that improvements in functional status and pain at 6 months did not differ significantly between patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy and those assigned to physical therapy alone and that 70% of the patients in the physical-therapy group did not undergo surgery, these data provide considerable reassurance regarding an initial nonoperative strategy. It is uncertain whether patients who undergo arthroscopic partial meniscectomy are at greater risk for progression of underlying osteoarthritis than patients treated nonoperatively.27-30 Longitudinal assessment of imaging studies in our trial is planned to address this question.

In summary, symptomatic patients with a meniscal tear and imaging evidence of mild-to-moderate osteoarthritis who were randomly assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with postoperative physical therapy had improvements in functional status and pain at 6 months that did not differ significantly from the improvements in patients randomly assigned to a standardized physical-therapy regimen alone. However, 30% of patients assigned to the physical-therapy group crossed over to surgery in the first 6 months.

These findings should help inform decision making by patients and their physicians.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jun 20, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Glucosamine/msm/chondroitin joint complex = Placebo

Knee surgery an even stronger form of placebo.
wayne w

Trad climber
the nw
Jun 20, 2013 - 04:03am PT
Turmeric works like magic for me. I have been using it for many years with excellent results.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 20, 2013 - 09:10am PT
I think BruceAnderson actually brings up a good point. Strengthening up supporting muscles is probably a better treatment than any supplements in the long run. In the last month I've gotten pretty religious about hip-muscle exercises in the morning and I've tossed some acupuncture in the mix for good measure and I've noticed more rapid and noticeable pain improvement in a much shorter period of time. In spite of all the climbing and hiking I do my hip muscles were surprisingly wimply BTW.

@ Peter. I've been x-rayed a few times. Kaiser is zero help with any treatment (gave me a paltry six PT sessions and told me to take Advil before they sent me packing) so I've been trying to figure out what works on my own.

Our store sells ton of turmeric and curcumin. It's got a ton of benefits for sure, but it never helped me personally with joint issues. Healthy and worth a shot though.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 20, 2013 - 09:46am PT
In 2006 the NIH funded a 12.5 million dollar, multicenter study. They found NO significant difference between those taking glucosamine and those taking a placebo.
Never trust anecdotal evidence from friends.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Let's skip all the bravo sierra about glucosamine sulfate (GS), chondroitin sulfate (CS), and look at the chemistry. I've known about the problem for over 25 years, and neither of these 2 compounds themselves taken orally is all that effective. The key is bioavailable sulfur, the cheapest source of which is MSM (methylsulfonylmethane). This is important as the bioavailable source for in-situ biosynthesis of GS and CS. The "dosage information" generated in these studies mentioned above is less than insightful, since they all are at levels too low to be clinically effective. I take neither GS or CS, but ingest a huge amount of MSM daily which seems to help. I take an average of 20 grams daily of MSM, which is dirt cheap if you buy it from a local feed store in 4 pound containers, suitable for horses. The stuff is nearly 100% pure crystalline MSM ( think the average assay is something like 99.9% pure, and is food grade). I dissolve a heaping teaspoon of it in a glass of water and drink it. It's not at all nasty, simply a little bitter; get used to it. A full year's supply purchased this way is ~$40-$50. In my not-so-humble opinion, GS and CS are a waste of money.
WBraun

climber
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:40am PT
The human body is the house of pain.

There is NO escape from pain for those living in the material body .......
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 20, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Pay attention to the warning signs to avoid injuries. The problem with trail running is, its too addictive and easy to overtrain.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jun 20, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Forget about glucosamine and chondroitin. They don't work.

Fish oil capsules, 1 tbs of Udo's oil 3-6-9 daily, ibuprofen and voltaren cream have been my go to until yesterday, when I went for cortisone injection in the right knee. Running over 1100 miles in the last few months is killing me... But the cortisone shot brought instant relief to a knee I could not weight a day earlier, and will hopefully get me through a 100 mile race in a week. Good luck out there...
Messages 21 - 40 of total 55 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta