Glucosamine Sulfate for creaky knees

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 55 of total 55 in this topic
marky

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2006 - 12:34am PT
Just got back from running hills, feeling creaky. Is GS legit? How do others deal with not bad/not great knees?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 28, 2006 - 12:46am PT
knees are complex.
duh.
sure roy.

I take all the supplements.
All of them.
I don't see any improvement from any of it but do it anyway.

Muscle and tendon relationships seem to be very important.
Creaky is called crepitus.

I have tight illio tibial bands (outside hip to knee area), which cause poor patellar tracking thus patellar tendinitis. Which hurts.

I have a styrofoam foam roller which works wonders.


426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:03am PT
I'm with Tar. I don't know if it helps but I've had "bad wheels" for a couple of decades now. Braces are incorporated often...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:22am PT
The knee is the most vulnerable (and valuable?) joint in the human body.

When my joints feel sore, I drink lots of milk, and it seems to help. Psychosomatic? I don't know.
rradakovits

Sport climber
san diego
Jul 28, 2006 - 03:37am PT
I use the same foam roal thingy, works great for me too!

Glucosamine in one recent study didn't have any effect, but it was Glucosamine alone, it is commonly taken in combination with MSM (which is supposed to increase uptake I think) and Chondroitin, so it is possible that it would have an effect. I take the GS+MSM+Chondroitin pills for my fingers/shoulder, err... knees/hips etc, etc...



DD

climber
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:38am PT
There is a growing body of research documenting the beneficial properties of glucosamine sulfate. PubMed is a good place to go for technical info on related studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/
keywords: "knees glucosamine sulfate"

One of my favorites was a study done at the Prague Institute of Rheumatology and published in the Archives of Internal Medicine showing that long term use of glucosamine sulfate actually alters the structure of the knee, significantly reducing pain and degradation of the knee joint. This was confirmed by radiographic analysis.

There are alot of interesting articles on the subject that are best accessed through a library system with access to PubMed.

As a fellow sufferer of knee pain, I take 3000mg/day glucosamine sulfate, 1200mg/day chondroitin sulfate, 1000mg/day of MSM, 2000mg/day of microlactin (dairy derived antibodies that reduce inflammation)and 400mg/day of grapeseed phytosome (a strong antioxidant that inhibits enzymes that degrade connective tissue.)

This regimen helps reduce my aches after a long day of climbing.

What else do you guys do for sore knees?

Dan
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 28, 2006 - 05:52am PT
Dan

Everything that I have read on glucosamine sulfate (not glucosamine hydrochloride, which is not as near as effective, according to most research that I have read) suggests or recommends 1,500mg a day, so I am wondering why you take 3,000mg/day.

I take 1,500 mg per day in liquid form (which absorbs far better that tablets or pills). I use to take 1,200mg/day chondroitin sulfate (the recommended dosage) but I haven’t found it here in Ireland on its own, it is usually combined with glucosamine sulfate in tablet/pill form coupled with manganese. Trouble is, the pills are 500mg GS, 400mg CS and 5mg manganese, so to take the daily recommended dosage (1,500mg GS, 1,200mg CS) you need to take three which means the daily input of manganese is 15mg – the FDA says that the daily max is 11mg, so I stopped taking the pills.

MSM, isn’t that derived from DMSO? I thought research showed that DSMO wasn’t good in the long-term.

Marky, perhaps it is psychological but glucosamine sulfate helps my arthritis in my neck. I know other people that swear on glucosamine sulfate but perhaps it is psychological. That said, and while more research needs to be done, there is mounting evidence that not only does glucosamine sulfate retard cartilage deterioration, but may actually help to reverse the process and help build new cartilage.
doc bs

Social climber
Northwest
Jul 28, 2006 - 09:16am PT
most of my patients prefer percocet, its cheeper
jesus

Social climber
ca
Jul 28, 2006 - 10:22am PT

I take this crap, i think it works , but who the f*#k knows. Trader joes sells it for 11 bucks for a box of 36 .

http://www.alacer.com/cgi-bin/dbsearch.exe?mdb=/products.mdb,tbl=products,DB_code=109,DBCOMP=ABS,template=/products/returntitle.htm
Phil_B

Social climber
Hercules, CA
Jul 28, 2006 - 10:27am PT
I started taking it about 6 years ago. I take the Glucosamine Sulfate/Chondroitan/MSM tabs.

The effects for me are pretty subtle. They don't take all my arthritis pain away, but if I stop taking it for a month I notice that I'm in more pain than before.

I wait for Puritan's Pride to have a sale. Otherwise this stuff is just too freaking expensive.
goatboy smellz

climber
shakedown street
Jul 28, 2006 - 11:47am PT
My older dog has hip dysplasia and has trouble getting up and gets sore after hiking (she moves real slow). After talking to someone who knows better they recommended liquid glucosamine with chondroitin & msm. After a couple weeks I noticed a little more giddy up in her movements and after a few months on it she's seems alot better so I guess that could rule out the psychosomatic theory. The ingredients are basic so if it's cheaper than the human stuff it might be worth looking into.
It runs about $31 bucks for 36oz. and lasts a month. liquidhealthinc.com
WOOF!
Mom

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
Patrick --- the reason to take more than 1500 units per day is that what drs and labels don't tell you is that the doseage for the glucosamine is based on BODY WEIGHT!! AND MUSCLE MASS!! I had stellar results with relief from knee and hip pain after upping my daily dosage to 4000 units; that is until I developed an ancient allergy to sulfur and all it relatives. Now I'm taking 5000 units of omega 3 fish oil with good results too. My 79 year old mother upped her intake of omega 3 to 4000 units and is able to bend her knees after not being able to do so for many years!! By the way, I've asked drs for help in taking these supplements and they just shake their head and prescribe codine....there is a lot to be said for 'natural remedies'. And according to my chirpractor daughter, all glucasamine is the same whether cheap or expensive.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Jul 28, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
Although medical/scientitic data might say otherwise, the stuff really works for me. I have been using for a couple of years now, 1500mg a day and its made a big difference. You have nothing to lose other than a few bucks in giving it a go. Try at least 3 months before deciding whether to stop or go.
Pretty Much

climber
San Jose
Jul 28, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
I took glucosamine (no sulfate due to shellfish allergy) for about 3 weeks to try to help with some tendonitis. It made every joint in my body hurt - knees, elbows, shoulders, wrists. couldn't climb, run, bike or lift weights, so I stopped. It felt like anywhere i had ever had soreness started hurting again all at the same time.

Maybe there is a 'pain' period before it starts working ... I have heard of good results from several other people.

-Jeff
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
As I understand it, you need at least one month of taking it before you see any noticeable results, though people's reactions vary of course.

Mom, that sounds reasonable. Perhaps I will up my dosage seeing as how I am am a bit 'bigger' (ahem, than say a few years ago), read rounder.

Pat the Paunch



Anybody with more info on MSM (I'll google it at some later date)?
Apocalypsenow

Trad climber
Cali
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
The body takes a real pounding when running hills. Consider changing your training...run up the hill, walk down.
Richard Large

climber
where you least expect
Jul 28, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
Regardless of what supplememt I take, a long day of hard exercise makes me hurt. For relief I recommend the strongest pain reliever you can buy without a prescription.... heroin.
G_Gnome

Social climber
Tendonitis City
Jul 28, 2006 - 05:25pm PT
Tequila seems most effective for the treatment of my aches and pains.

Actually, if your aches are from cartalidge problems then you might see improvement from these drugs. If you have other issues like bad tendons/ligaments (Roy!) then don't expect any improvement in symptoms from this treatment.
DD

climber
Jul 29, 2006 - 03:24am PT
Patrick,

"Everything that I have read on glucosamine sulfate (not glucosamine hydrochloride, which is not as near as effective, according to most research that I have read) suggests or recommends 1,500mg a day, so I am wondering why you take 3,000mg/day."

I've also noticed that researchers seem to be playing around with doses of about 1500mg/day. No good reason for me taking more... It just seems to work a little better.

I'm not too familar with DMSO or MSM but found an interesting article on the two.
http://www.arthritis.org/resources/arthritistoday/1999_archives/1999_11_12explorations.asp

As you mention, glucosamine sulfate may build new cartilage.... this is what I'm hoping for.

d
cjain

Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
Jul 29, 2006 - 04:06am PT
From what I've read about GS, I decided it was worth trying. But from what I've read on Chondroitin Sulfate (and you can google this yourself), it seems it needs to be low molecular weight in order to have any real effect, and the low molecular weight stuff is quite expensive. The Chondroitin in Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo's is usually high molecular weight, and the Chondroitin is the most expensive part. So I avoid buying the combo formulas and get just Glucosamine by itself.

HOWEVER, I think there is too much emphasis on taking pills and not enough on prevention. I would guess that many, many people have knee pain (and some likely are suffering irreversable cartilage damage) due to tightness in their lateral quads/IT bands. These can be tight without your feeling it (especially if you've just ramped up your training or just started running hills.)

As Tarbuster mentions above, a foam roller can work pretty well to loosen this up. Foam rollers are inexpensive and widely available. Best purchase I ever made.

See this link on how the roller is used:
http://www.smiweb.org/massage_clinic/pdf/roller_guide.pdf

My recommendation would be to not just roll on the IT band, but also the glutes (butt), quads, and calves, as tightness in any of those can contribute to knee pain.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 29, 2006 - 11:06am PT
My reading indicates the chondroitin effects water retention in the cartilage, which helps the glucosamine to do its rebuild, thus the combo.

Lisa runs runs runs, is a national mtn running champ.
THE USTAF Masters Champ in fact.
She is constantly doing maintenance.
Ice,
Stretch,
PAYS for lots of rigorous massage.
Lately, we are both using a gal who does tendon attachment oriented massage, (less deep muscle), and Lisa says this really keeps her out of trouble. It ain’t feel good massage; much more a corrective approach.


BTW, that foam roller pulled me out of decades worth of patellar tendon related knee pain, felt just below the kneecap, like a stabbing pain: the only near miracle stategy I have ever encountered.
(except for Short Timer's Tequila Remedy, which werks wunders)


Here’s a book to get:
“Treat Your Own Knees”
Jim Johnson, P.T.
http://www.hunterhouse.com

Here's Teh Good Livin'!
Cheers,
Roy


Kiko

climber
California
Jul 29, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
The buck stops at the Cochrane reviews when it comes to scientific questions...

http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD002946/frame.html

Plain language summary
Does glucosamine work for treating osteoarthritis?
This Cochrane review looked at the best studies done to date on glucosamine. Twenty studies tested over 2500 people with osteoarthritis of the knee or hip. Most of the studies were 2 to 3 months long. To test how well glucosamine works, researchers compared people who had either glucosamine (as a pill or an injection), fake pills or injections, or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID).

What is osteoarthritis and glucosamine?
Osteoarthritis (OA) is the most common form of arthritis that can affect the hands, hips, shoulders and knees. In OA, the cartilage that protects the ends of the bones breaks down and causes pain and swelling. Drug and non-drug treatments are used to relieve pain and/or swelling. Glucosamine can be found naturally in the body and is one of the building blocks of cartilage. It is thought that taking glucosamine supplements may help stop cartilage breakdown, build cartilage and decrease swelling. But there is debate about its effects.

How well does glucosamine work?
Pain: The high quality studies showed that pain improved about the same whether people took glucosamine or fake pills. If all of the studies are examined (including low quality and old studies), then glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills.


Pain may improve by 13 more points on a scale of 0 to 100 with glucosamine than with fake pills.
Studies testing only the Rotta brand of glucosamine (including low quality and old studies) showed that glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills.

Function: The high quality studies show that glucosamine improved pain more than fake pills when measured by one type of scale, but improved the same amount as fake pills when measured by another scale. This result is the same whether all of the studies (including low quality and old studies) or whether studies using the Rotta brand of glucosamine are analysed.
10b4me

Trad climber
California
Jul 29, 2006 - 08:09pm PT
I've tried glucosamine chondroitin, and MSM in the pill form. has not worked for me. I will give a shot at the liquid type.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 1, 2006 - 05:53am PT
Tarbuster, I’ve read that chondroitin does help in fluid retention in joints, thus helping in lubricating the joint, but I haven’t read that it helps the effectiveness of GS. I’ll google that at some point.

That foam roller looks cool. I’m going to try and find one here in Dublin.
Wade Icey

Social climber
the EPC
Aug 1, 2006 - 11:34am PT
Glucosamine has worked well for (My) various joint and tendon attachment/detachment issues. So well I began doubling recommended dosages. That's when the Kidney Stones really started rollin'. I'll take Creaky over pissing broken glass, thank you. YMMV.

Two glasses of water for every beer,

Wade
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
what about GS for arthritic dogs?? anyone? have a dog that's gotten the Big A
hossjulia

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Absolutely! I think the Zukes Glucosamine treats are a great source. Salmon oil for the Omega fatty acids is key too. Also grain free dog food. I never thought feeding grain based foods to dogs was a great idea, seems I was correct. Some grain sensitivity could be the culprit of your dogs creaky joints.



joint pain can come from many sources.

Mine seems to have almost stopped now that I'm more aware of a touchy thyroid and pretty significant hypoglycemia. The hypoglycemia makes me stupid and I forget to drink water, compounding the problem. Last bad episode took a few days to get over.

Glucosamine never did anything for me personally except make my guts hurt.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Foam roller IT band, quads, hammys will do a lot to alleviate tension. I'd be in a wheelchair without my roller, it hurts so good!

Glucosamine/msm/chondroitin joint complex requires at least a month of taking it before your system is "loaded" & you can begin to benefit from it. I've been taking it for years & only notice a difference when I'm without for a few days & it starts raining cuz my joints are creaky.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Well, I've recently started taking it again along with the chondroitin. I've got arthritis in my feet and back. Not expecting a miracle cure, but I am trying to stave it off or at least maintain it where it's at. I've had to ramp up very gradually with glucosamine. Too much too quick and it messes up your tummy.

I've actually religiously taken MSM alone over the past few years. An added on benefit in addition to some joint pain relief being freed from 10 years of chronic headaches so I won't be dropping MSM any time soon. I will say the MSM is way easier on your stomach too. I do fish oil as well .

Kinda the same thing some people have described.. I don't really notice unless I stop taking it for a while and everything gets way creakier.

Never heard that MSM is related to DMSO BTW. I just googled around and didn't find any evidence of that.

Edit: did some more research.. it is an oxidized form of DMSO.. interesting.. didn't know that.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:14am PT
Maidy, get your GD knees Xrayed. period. You are going to need a baseline, coming up.
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Jun 20, 2013 - 01:53am PT
From what I've been told and read many knee problems in athletes stem from hip instability. Work on strengthening the glute medius. Do heel slides (lay on the floor on your side with your lower back against the wall and knees a little bent, then point your upper foot towards the ceiling and raise your leg as hi as you can, keeping the heel against the wall. Slowly lower and repeat about 15 times. Flip around and do both sides. Do em every day if you can.) they're hard to describe perfectly but you can look them up. Athletes who do a solid hip stabilty program reduce knee injuries by a huge amount. The problem is the glute med is hard to target and often so underworked it doesn't even really fire at all.
There's good info on this online, at least check it out.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 20, 2013 - 02:21am PT
There was a recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine that may be of interest to the audience:

Surgery versus Physical Therapy for a Meniscal Tear and Osteoarthritis


Jeffrey N. Katz, M.D., Robert H. Brophy, M.D., Christine E. Chaisson, M.P.H., Leigh de Chaves, P.T., O.C.S., Brian J. Cole, M.D., M.B.A., Diane L. Dahm, M.D., Laurel A. Donnell-Fink, M.P.H., Ali Guermazi, M.D., Ph.D., Amanda K. Haas, M.A., Morgan H. Jones, M.D., M.P.H., Bruce A. Levy, M.D., Lisa A. Mandl, M.D., M.P.H., Scott D. Martin, M.D., Robert G. Marx, M.D., Anthony Miniaci, M.D., Matthew J. Matava, M.D., Joseph Palmisano, M.P.H., Emily K. Reinke, Ph.D., Brian E. Richardson, P.T., M.S., S.C.S., C.S.C.S., Benjamin N. Rome, B.A., Clare E. Safran-Norton, P.T., Ph.D., O.C.S., Debra J. Skoniecki, M.S.N., A.N.P., Daniel H. Solomon, M.D., M.P.H., Matthew V. Smith, M.D., Kurt P. Spindler, M.D., Michael J. Stuart, M.D., John Wright, M.D., Rick W. Wright, M.D., and Elena Losina, Ph.D.

DISCUSSION
In this seven-center randomized, controlled trial involving symptomatic patients 45 years of age or older with a meniscal tear and imaging evidence of mild-to-moderate knee osteoarthritis, there were no significant differences in the magnitude of improvement in functional status and pain after 6 and 12 months between patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with postoperative physical therapy and patients assigned to a standardized physical-therapy regimen. These results were achieved with a 30% rate of crossover to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy at 6 months. At 12 months, among 169 participants (not all of whom provided data at the 1-year evaluation), the rate of crossover to surgery was 35%.

In a prior small, single-center, randomized, controlled trial comparing arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with standardized physical therapy for symptomatic patients with a meniscal tear and knee osteoarthritis, the two groups had similar functional outcomes at 6 months, and the similarity between the groups persisted through 5 years of follow-up.8,9 To our knowledge, this is the first large, multicenter, randomized, controlled trial to examine the efficacy of arthroscopic partial meniscectomy as compared with a standardized physical-therapy regimen.

Surgical randomized, controlled trials present methodologic challenges, including crossover from one group to the other.24,25 To account for crossovers, we defined an additional outcome a priori in which patients were deemed to have a successful treatment response if they had improvement of at least 8 points on the WOMAC physical-function scale (a clinically important difference) and they did not cross over from their assigned treatment. A total of 67% of patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy met this threshold for success, as compared with 44% of patients treated with physical therapy alone. We acknowledge, however, that because the treatment assignments were not blinded, and because crossover could not occur in the arthroscopic-partial-meniscectomy group once the surgery had been performed, this secondary analysis was vulnerable to bias.

Several limitations of the study warrant discussion. First, because we enrolled only 26% of eligible patients, our findings must be generalized cautiously. The most frequent reason that patients declined enrollment was a strong preference for one treatment or the other. Since patients' preferences may be associated with treatment outcome, our trial may be vulnerable to selection bias. Participating surgeons may not have referred potentially eligible patients because they were uncomfortable randomly assigning these patients to treatment; this form of selective enrollment may also create bias.26 Second, because the trial was conducted in academic referral centers, the findings should be generalized carefully to community settings. Third, we did not formally assess the fidelity of the physical therapists or surgeons to the standard intervention protocols. Finally, our study was not blinded, since our investigative group did not consider a sham comparison group feasible.

These limitations notwithstanding, the results of our trial may help guide management in the care of patients with knee symptoms, a meniscal tear, and imaging evidence of osteoarthritis. Our findings suggest that both arthroscopic partial meniscectomy and referral to physical therapy — with an opportunity to consider arthroscopic partial meniscectomy if substantial improvements are not achieved — are likely to result in considerable improvement in functional status and knee pain over a 6-to-12-month period.

Given that improvements in functional status and pain at 6 months did not differ significantly between patients assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy and those assigned to physical therapy alone and that 70% of the patients in the physical-therapy group did not undergo surgery, these data provide considerable reassurance regarding an initial nonoperative strategy. It is uncertain whether patients who undergo arthroscopic partial meniscectomy are at greater risk for progression of underlying osteoarthritis than patients treated nonoperatively.27-30 Longitudinal assessment of imaging studies in our trial is planned to address this question.

In summary, symptomatic patients with a meniscal tear and imaging evidence of mild-to-moderate osteoarthritis who were randomly assigned to arthroscopic partial meniscectomy with postoperative physical therapy had improvements in functional status and pain at 6 months that did not differ significantly from the improvements in patients randomly assigned to a standardized physical-therapy regimen alone. However, 30% of patients assigned to the physical-therapy group crossed over to surgery in the first 6 months.

These findings should help inform decision making by patients and their physicians.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jun 20, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Glucosamine/msm/chondroitin joint complex = Placebo

Knee surgery an even stronger form of placebo.
wayne w

Trad climber
the nw
Jun 20, 2013 - 04:03am PT
Turmeric works like magic for me. I have been using it for many years with excellent results.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 20, 2013 - 09:10am PT
I think BruceAnderson actually brings up a good point. Strengthening up supporting muscles is probably a better treatment than any supplements in the long run. In the last month I've gotten pretty religious about hip-muscle exercises in the morning and I've tossed some acupuncture in the mix for good measure and I've noticed more rapid and noticeable pain improvement in a much shorter period of time. In spite of all the climbing and hiking I do my hip muscles were surprisingly wimply BTW.

@ Peter. I've been x-rayed a few times. Kaiser is zero help with any treatment (gave me a paltry six PT sessions and told me to take Advil before they sent me packing) so I've been trying to figure out what works on my own.

Our store sells ton of turmeric and curcumin. It's got a ton of benefits for sure, but it never helped me personally with joint issues. Healthy and worth a shot though.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 20, 2013 - 09:46am PT
In 2006 the NIH funded a 12.5 million dollar, multicenter study. They found NO significant difference between those taking glucosamine and those taking a placebo.
Never trust anecdotal evidence from friends.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Let's skip all the bravo sierra about glucosamine sulfate (GS), chondroitin sulfate (CS), and look at the chemistry. I've known about the problem for over 25 years, and neither of these 2 compounds themselves taken orally is all that effective. The key is bioavailable sulfur, the cheapest source of which is MSM (methylsulfonylmethane). This is important as the bioavailable source for in-situ biosynthesis of GS and CS. The "dosage information" generated in these studies mentioned above is less than insightful, since they all are at levels too low to be clinically effective. I take neither GS or CS, but ingest a huge amount of MSM daily which seems to help. I take an average of 20 grams daily of MSM, which is dirt cheap if you buy it from a local feed store in 4 pound containers, suitable for horses. The stuff is nearly 100% pure crystalline MSM ( think the average assay is something like 99.9% pure, and is food grade). I dissolve a heaping teaspoon of it in a glass of water and drink it. It's not at all nasty, simply a little bitter; get used to it. A full year's supply purchased this way is ~$40-$50. In my not-so-humble opinion, GS and CS are a waste of money.
WBraun

climber
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:40am PT
The human body is the house of pain.

There is NO escape from pain for those living in the material body .......
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 20, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Pay attention to the warning signs to avoid injuries. The problem with trail running is, its too addictive and easy to overtrain.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jun 20, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Forget about glucosamine and chondroitin. They don't work.

Fish oil capsules, 1 tbs of Udo's oil 3-6-9 daily, ibuprofen and voltaren cream have been my go to until yesterday, when I went for cortisone injection in the right knee. Running over 1100 miles in the last few months is killing me... But the cortisone shot brought instant relief to a knee I could not weight a day earlier, and will hopefully get me through a 100 mile race in a week. Good luck out there...
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
Now that my hip has totally degenerated (yay replacement surgery soon!), my knee is acting up. I concur with the weak hip, jacked knee theory. CS and GS did nothing for me and turmeric is a double edged sword, my joints like it, my gut says FUQ. Fish oil works too. Gonna have to try this MSM stuff. Yoga and the therapy pool are really helpful. Last resort, Vitamin Vic.
OR

Trad climber
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Truth about the gut thing^^^^ Good god, I almost went to the emergency room thinking I had some some serious issue like an ulcer untill my friend told me to quit the GS. awful for me.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Joint issues/pain subside completely at one's passing.....hang tough!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 20, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
In 2006 the NIH funded a 12.5 million dollar, multicenter study. They found NO significant difference between those taking glucosamine and those taking a placebo.
Never trust anecdotal evidence from friends.

Careful.

Placebos commonly produce a significant response about 30% of the time, compared with doing nothing.

So if a treatment is equivalent to placebo, that does not make an argument for doing nothing, which has a response rate of ZERO.

Another issue: Physical therapy done well for such problems is not a process where the PT brings you in and does stuff, commonly referred to as Passive Physical Therapy. The good stuff is where they evaluate your mechanics and show you how to do things better, teach you the right exercises for the problem........and you do them ON YOUR OWN, not in their offices.

After all, you aren't going to live your life at the PT office. You will be in the real world, and you need real world activities to make your life better.

PT doesn't always work, and there are situations where special equipment is necessary to do the work, but for the most part, good PT regimens evaluate, design a program, teach the program, and get you out the door.

You actually have to do the work.
sween345

climber
back east
Jun 20, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
donini,

Are you speaking from personal experience or are you offering us hearsay testimony?
wicoxfreedom

Sport climber
Anoka, MN
Aug 2, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
As others have mentioned, I noticed a BIG effectiveness gap between the cheapo, generic, bulk, box store brands of Glucosamine as compared to a more "top-of-the-line" specialist brand. It rings of the whole, you get what you pay for.

But true, I am no scientist, so take it for what its worth.

WD40-for-Joints
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
This article is the best I've found on the subject, sort of a pseudo-meta-analysis of multiple studies that are out there: http://saveyourself.ca/articles/reality-checks/nutraceuticals.php

This guy knows his stuff and is very impartial, and based on what he says, glucosamine doesn't seem to be very effective.
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Aug 2, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
My wife has made the effort more than once to get me started on Glucosamine.

For one thing it is expensive, and I have known for years that extensive test have revealed little or NO value, but she continues to harp on the subject.

I'm going to save the link to your article and have her read it.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Aug 2, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
I hear viagra helps...what? Oh sorry...wrong forum.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 2, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Foam rollers are inexpensive and widely available. Best purchase I ever made. See this link on how the roller is used...

That link doesn't work. The correct link is http://smiweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/roller.pdf
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 2, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Tarbuster:

I have tight illio tibial bands (outside hip to knee area), which cause poor patellar tracking thus patellar tendinitis. Which hurts.

I have a styrofoam foam roller which works wonders.




I'm in the same boat. Caused by lots of skiing maybe?

Another thing that helps for patellar tracking is strengthening the inside head of the quadriceps, the teardrop shaped part. Doing leg presses or squats in a duck stance (toes out) works 'em.

For creaky knees my doc told me that's often from beating on your knee caps. You can't fix them but can try to keep them from getting worse. He said stay off them, e.g. don't go installing a hard wood floor on them.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Nov 22, 2016 - 09:14am PT
I'm on board. I'll take the placebo effect, if that's all it is.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Nov 22, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Several orthopedic surgeons have told me that it might help and certainly won't hurt.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 22, 2016 - 11:10am PT
You actually have to do the work.

Ken M is right on and it is the only way..

I have a separated left shoulder, no ACL in my right knee(I am a coper) and shoulder issues stemming (pun intended) from climbing and MTB/Moto accidents. I visited a very good PT here in town in the 2000 for my knee and again in 2015 for a new knee injury and shoulder issues. I do PT 4-5 times a week at the gym and and at home. I have an old kids jungle gym in the yard that is awesome for all things: static, hangs, angled hangs and stretching.
Edit: I forgot to add..

I do take TissueRejuvinator from Hammer and have Indian food a couple times a week. I don't do the pain killer stuff for anything chronic, unless it's chronic...

Most of my PT exercises focus on my hips and feet/ankles. I still do hella squats cuz I love the buzz and appetite I get from a good sesh.

You also have to be consistent with your WO's. This summer I got stressed at work and commuted by bike less as well as only hitting the gym 3-4 times a month for 3 months...damn, that was stupid! I am still trying to get back some of my knee health and strength. My knees will creak a bit here and there and given that ski season is right around the corner, I'll probably just do the Nordy route till 2017. I hear West Y. is shaping up nicely!

Clode reminded me of something...I had a neighbor who had a dog with crappy joints and the vet Rx'd his dog glucosamine and chondroitin and he said that after his dog began the Rx it had began to run and play more and was obviously exhibiting signs of relief, so he started taking his dogs pills and they seemed to work for him as well. Anyway, the dog obviously had no clue that it was taking something for it's joints...
clode

Trad climber
portland, or
Nov 22, 2016 - 11:16am PT
After decades of tennis, bicycling, backpacking, climbing, etc., my knees are the joints most prone to discomfort after a workout. I started taking glucosamine with chondroitin decades ago. I started with three capsules a day for a month, then I tapered back to a maintenance dose of one per day. When I stop taking them, the very next day I notice knee pain right away. It works for me, and without any apparent side effects.
Messages 1 - 55 of total 55 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta