Climbing illegal in the Angeles National Forest?

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 91 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Pistol Pete

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
FYI- There is no visible signage in the Millard Canyon Campground or on the trail. I saw nothing about climbing prohibitions. Only a flyer about illegal fireworks.

-Pete
Doug Buchanan

Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
Jul 14, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
I laughed robustly.

"MOST IMPORTANTLY", curious that I am, using Kofi's reasoning, I discovered the link -- Anna = Obama = Osama. "Took quite awhile for that truth to be revealed." Now therefore you can use that highly useful knowledge.

Fat Dad used some of the identical, word for word phrases used for the last several decades to perpetuate the problem rather than solve the problem.

"...land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it,..."

If you wanted to solve the problem rather than perpetuate it at great cost of climber money and time, would you not ask precisely what, in exact words, needed to be banned or regulated, then merely find those words in the prevailing law, if they exist in prevailing law?

They do not exist in prevailing law. Climbing is lawful. There is no lawful "regulation" of "climbing". Destroying tangible property of significant public value is not lawful, etceteras, whether done while climbing or sitting in a lawn chair. It is not a "climbing" regulation.

If you are too lazy to exercise that simple process, or use an even more efficient process readily available to you, your current actions acquiesce to the rule of ever-changing personalities with government bureaucrat jobs, a fool's quest for the entertainment of SuperTopo fans.

Enjoy the show of the lazy fools.

Doug

locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Jul 14, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
so is the answer now that it IS legal or not???...

I am left CONFUSED after reading all of this and PUDS post above saying it is NOT illegal to climb in the ANF...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 14, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
They may have THEIR catch-all language, but there is always the eleventh commandment;

("Thou shalt not get caught!")
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Jul 14, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
"("Thou shalt not get caught!") "...


can I get an AMEN...
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Jul 14, 2008 - 05:30pm PT
"let me know when I should start calling my friends in Congress to get the situation resolved"...

OK...

NOW!!!...




THANKS!!!...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 14, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
Doug,
I am not quoting any law or perpetuating anything, I'm merely repeating what appears to be the established policy of land managers. However, I do agree with you that the failure to challenge those policies often results in they're being adopted by the powers that be.

The problem with challenging these policies, however, is that you need someone either brave or foolish enough to serve as a test plaintiff. That person also needs to be assured that they'll have both the competent representation and the financial backing to support that challenge. Either one of those tasks can be a challenge and absent the support of a non-profit or advocacy group you're probably not going to get that far. You'll probably just come off to the court as some anti-social, anti-government kook like the Unibomber.

Easy to point the finger at others. Much harder to step up and effectively back up those words with action.
Jordan Ramey

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jul 14, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
http://mountainproject.com/v/california/los_angeles_county/angeles_national_forest/106138318

Here is a bunch of info on climbing in millard canyon. I even took pictures of the entrance signs and no where does it say that you can't climb there. I've seen lots of people practicing aiding this bolt ladder next to the falls. Almost all the bolts are bomber and many were replaced in the last 5 years from old 1/4"ers

So, does anyone know exactly who we should call that is actually in charge and can give real answers? Has anyone gotten any real responses on this issue?
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Jul 14, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
Last year during the Williamson review, I traded a couple emails with the below contact.

Jonathan (Yonni) Schwartz
District Resource Staff Officer
Santa Clara / Mojave River District
Angeles National Forest

I just left him a voice mail explaining this situation. Will also email him. He is not necessarily the right person to speak with. But it's a start...
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Jul 14, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
This thread is a troll. It's ok to climb, but you can't use ropes?????wtf kind of law would that be? So bouldering's still ok? I can go to horse flats and boulder, but not top-rope? LOL.

No more climbing at the Tunnel or Spring Crags, or how 'bout Tripper Jacks new spot?...anyone told him? LOL.

Can I use a rope to climb Baldy Bowl in winter, but must only climb snow and not touch rock?

Rappelling's ok though? 'cause it's going down not up? LOL.

I'm not going to call anyone. If the USFS is going to ban a popular activity that has been going on in the NF forever, then they need to make the public aware of the major change in rules. There is nothing on the their website about any climbing gear ban, the are no signs anywhere in the forest, and this thread is a troll.

Word.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
Jul 14, 2008 - 06:37pm PT
I agree with Rincon. It is a mistake to start contacting all the various managers and make this an issue. Let it be.

Kris Solem
Monrovia CA
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jul 14, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
It is perfectly legal to climb in the ANF. The only exceptions are areas that are affected by specific closures that have been "legally" imposed (e.g.: Williamson Rock closure).

Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.

In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.

RVogel
Barbarian

Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
Jul 14, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
In an agreement put together some years ago, climbing is not illegal. Placing bolts is. The ANF considers this "littering on federal property". Climbing is permitted in the canyon described. Using the bolts in situ is permitted. Placing new bolts is not. Pushing the issue or flooding the FS office with calls will probably not be helpful for climbers overall.
Pistol Pete

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
Well folks, it wasn't a troll. Two different forrest service people told me the same thing, "No Climbing." I posted it on the Taco to get input from the climbing community which I respect. I am happy to let the issue die off now.
But, who will help me pay the fine when I get the ticket?

Thanks for wrapping your collective minds around this one.

Peace,

Pete
Barbarian

Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
Jul 14, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
More info:

http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment/bolt_or_not.html

From inside this link:

Administered by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, the U.S. Forest Service oversees land use in U.S. national forests. In 1998 the Forest Service banned bolting and motorized drills.

Peace,
Barbarian
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Jul 14, 2008 - 10:03pm PT


"But, who will help me pay the fine when I get the ticket?"...


No reason why you should get a ticket IF it is LEGAL...


AND...




"kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.

RVogel "...
whatmeworry

Mountain climber
Pasadena, CA
Jul 14, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
Someone forgot to tell all the canyoneers in the San Gabes that placing bolts is illegal. There are huge numbers of new bolts in many of the popular canyons.

If bolts are littering then the ANF LEOs should focus on the San Gabriel River on any weekend. With the # of dirty diapers and other trash left by forest visitors we could pay for the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog survey work that has kept Williamson Rock closed for 2+ years now and has been postponed due to budget issues.....

http://williamsonrock.org/blog/
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 14, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
This from Barbarian's link:

"In 1998 Forest Services had imposed a similar ban on new bolting and was calling for the removal of existing bolts. According to the compromise, climbers can use and replace existing bolts but still cannot drill new bolts into the rock on Forest Service property."

Does this imply all Forest Service property through out the US?

Or just pertain to JT?
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jul 14, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
Are you guys sure this isn't RC.com? So much outright misinformation. And take the attitudes (and false indignation) back to pre-school.

Placing bolts is NOT illegal in the ANF. Climbing is NOT illegal in the ANF.

Yes, if you get ticketed, send me an email. But, be Polite and Courteous and you will probably sort things out without getting one. The ranger may be misinformed, but if you act like a jerk, this doesn't put a good light on climbers or help your case if you get cited. I've defended other wrongfully accused (but polite) climbers.

[Edited to add: the link about bolting in Josh (and the tidbit about FS Rulemaking) has no bearing on the ANF and is so out of context that you can be excused for being confused.]




apogee

climber
Jul 15, 2008 - 01:51am PT
Randy- thank you for the voice of reason and rationality.
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