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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 12, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
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"Progress" in climbing?
what does that mean?
I'm almost ready to quote DMT.
When the strongest of the sport are willing state that climbing has progression. I say, from where, to what? and how is that qualitatively any better than the prior year's or season's amazing efforts. Just because the magazines think that way. Just because it's not newsworthy?
I'm starting to appreciate those writers and posters who say you can't judge one time's climbs against another time's climbs, as better.
These are just games. They have no inherit meaning. We know they are bad-ass efforts. But is a speed climb better than a hard aid pitch?
Should an aid route be removed to unclutter the free version?
Should bolts be retro'd to big wall aid climbs so that the free climbing can be done? Everything I've read says that the bolts should be out of reach of the aid lines. The aid lines were there first. We wouldn't want to erase them from our collective memory and experience. Else, we could on the same slope say the progression of climbing is from runouts to sport climbs, and runnouts should be retro'd.
Of course this is loaded language, but it's when we somewhat glibly repeat ideas of progress is normal and aid to free is the only thing that matters, or some such, we do damage to the past. We lose the connection to what started it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 12, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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I've got to grab a few kids and a rack of brew this thread has legs? Maybe?
Maybe not
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2016 - 05:17pm PT
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it's been talked about before, me thinks.
supertopo is like a rant pillow you can scream into. No one listens anyways. :)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
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Cheating actually works in the metaphor of games.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 12, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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On the FA of Monitor Butte I carefully clean aided, and then, with the assist of my top rope, I was able to priss off several hundreds of pounds of loose blocks and clean out the crack for subsequent climbers.
A few years later Earl Wiggens freed the route, sort of. We had used 2 bolts next to a wide section, not only for aid, but for belay/rappel, as did he. But that wide spot would have been the crux so hanging on bolts there casts a shadow on the free nature of the route.
Wiggens renamed the route and used it on the cover of Canyon Country Climbs.
Then we crossed paths at Macho Acres. I gave voice to my objection. I had made the route user friendly, and he knew from the getgo that whatever we didn't free at least had protection potential, a bit of knowledge we didn't have.
I asked him why he had to rename the route, why couldn't he just be happy with recording the FFA.
Sibley conceded that I had some points.
To his credit a week later Earl gave a slide show in Moab and I later heard that he had given me props and "dropped" the route name (trouble was it was already in print in his and Bjornstad's books).
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 12, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
There's no such thing as free climbing .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Feb 12, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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When I was a child as I grew up I realized that my grandfather on my mother's side was a bit of an overly pious racist. One time he told me I had to pay back my mother for raising me. He kind of creeped me out with that one so I kept my distance after that. I loved him and appreciated the fishing and hunting trips, and other mentoring, and I don't recall his ever raising a hand to me, but the guilting I could never tolerate.
Too much of that going on with religious upbringing, that somehow we owe God and the world our best behavior for being allowed to exist here from the get go. Wait, I think that's written into law in most places. Better not let the government minders hear me talking about this.
See what guilt can do to you?
Do we owe the climbers of the past for pioneering the hard routes for us back in the day, or is climbing free to the next generation to reach out and take it? Sorry I fell asleep a minute ago while writing and posting. I guess it's both, but rather more with respect to the pioneers who might be due our homage. But, this could never be a prerequisite to practicing and pushing the advancements and limits of climbing.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:58am PT
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I figure, if yer movin' up then yer makin progress . . .
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:26am PT
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I always figured the progress aspect refered to a relative decrease in wear and tear, allowing more people to enjoy the resource before destroying it. If one method allows 100 ascents and another allows 1000 with similar impact, I'd call that progress.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 07:19am PT
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Werner posted It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
There's no such thing as free climbing .....
Probably the most coherent and wise thing you've posted in years, Werner. Thanks.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Feb 13, 2016 - 07:27am PT
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"Progress" in climbing?
what does that mean?
That's easy.....you are still moving upward!
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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Ideologues no, Visionaries yes. . .it sounds like you didn't sh#t on any ropes, because there's poo coming out of your mouth. . .df
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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Bushman, Trashman, DMT, very cogent.
Aye, upwards is real progress this band of climbers are we.
There's always an appeal to elitism somewhere. Human condition?
Think I'll try to boulder a little today. Gotta train. Get strong. Git projects. Waaaahoooo!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
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For me, progression is to improve my skills. Global progression? That I don't really care about as much. Hearing about feats from the past and The recent ascents is a good way to get inspired. The future would be impossible without the past. All the modern climbs are the result of the improvement to gear, skill and logistical lessons learned by those from the past. A lot of hard work, trial and error by the individuals as well.
No point to compare the first ascent of the nose with the speed climb of the nose. Different gear, different climbers driven by different things. Neither is superior or inferior.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
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Naked Free Solo !!
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Feb 14, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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The progression of aid climbs is moving from placement to placement.
The progression of free climbing is moving from hold to hold.
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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Feb 14, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
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The "progression" from aid to free has turned a lot of classic 5 star aid climbs into mediocre, seldom repeated free climbs. This idea that free climbing is somehow better than aid climbing is a joke
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 14, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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Do we owe the climbers of the past for pioneering the hard routes for us back in the day . . .
Absolutely not. Their motivation was not to prepare the way for future generations, rather to break new ground and explore and see what they could do in an alien environment, push their boundaries . . . and sometimes gain a touch of glory for themselves.
Climb in your own time, neither in the past nor the future.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Feb 14, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
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It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
Now that is an enlightened perspective . . . we are climbing on the backs of others, climbers or not . . . their blood, sweat and tears. Let us not forget our impacts on the world around us.
The progression of climbing lies in the hybridization of the dominant disciplines: Aid, alpine, big wall, crag, free, free solo, ice, indoor, rock, sport, traditional . . . the best climbers have mastered the majority of these.
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