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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 12, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
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"Progress" in climbing?
what does that mean?
I'm almost ready to quote DMT.
When the strongest of the sport are willing state that climbing has progression. I say, from where, to what? and how is that qualitatively any better than the prior year's or season's amazing efforts. Just because the magazines think that way. Just because it's not newsworthy?
I'm starting to appreciate those writers and posters who say you can't judge one time's climbs against another time's climbs, as better.
These are just games. They have no inherit meaning. We know they are bad-ass efforts. But is a speed climb better than a hard aid pitch?
Should an aid route be removed to unclutter the free version?
Should bolts be retro'd to big wall aid climbs so that the free climbing can be done? Everything I've read says that the bolts should be out of reach of the aid lines. The aid lines were there first. We wouldn't want to erase them from our collective memory and experience. Else, we could on the same slope say the progression of climbing is from runouts to sport climbs, and runnouts should be retro'd.
Of course this is loaded language, but it's when we somewhat glibly repeat ideas of progress is normal and aid to free is the only thing that matters, or some such, we do damage to the past. We lose the connection to what started it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 12, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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I've got to grab a few kids and a rack of brew this thread has legs? Maybe?
Maybe not
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2016 - 05:17pm PT
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it's been talked about before, me thinks.
supertopo is like a rant pillow you can scream into. No one listens anyways. :)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
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Cheating actually works in the metaphor of games.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 12, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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On the FA of Monitor Butte I carefully clean aided, and then, with the assist of my top rope, I was able to priss off several hundreds of pounds of loose blocks and clean out the crack for subsequent climbers.
A few years later Earl Wiggens freed the route, sort of. We had used 2 bolts next to a wide section, not only for aid, but for belay/rappel, as did he. But that wide spot would have been the crux so hanging on bolts there casts a shadow on the free nature of the route.
Wiggens renamed the route and used it on the cover of Canyon Country Climbs.
Then we crossed paths at Macho Acres. I gave voice to my objection. I had made the route user friendly, and he knew from the getgo that whatever we didn't free at least had protection potential, a bit of knowledge we didn't have.
I asked him why he had to rename the route, why couldn't he just be happy with recording the FFA.
Sibley conceded that I had some points.
To his credit a week later Earl gave a slide show in Moab and I later heard that he had given me props and "dropped" the route name (trouble was it was already in print in his and Bjornstad's books).
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 12, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
There's no such thing as free climbing .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Feb 12, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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When I was a child as I grew up I realized that my grandfather on my mother's side was a bit of an overly pious racist. One time he told me I had to pay back my mother for raising me. He kind of creeped me out with that one so I kept my distance after that. I loved him and appreciated the fishing and hunting trips, and other mentoring, and I don't recall his ever raising a hand to me, but the guilting I could never tolerate.
Too much of that going on with religious upbringing, that somehow we owe God and the world our best behavior for being allowed to exist here from the get go. Wait, I think that's written into law in most places. Better not let the government minders hear me talking about this.
See what guilt can do to you?
Do we owe the climbers of the past for pioneering the hard routes for us back in the day, or is climbing free to the next generation to reach out and take it? Sorry I fell asleep a minute ago while writing and posting. I guess it's both, but rather more with respect to the pioneers who might be due our homage. But, this could never be a prerequisite to practicing and pushing the advancements and limits of climbing.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:58am PT
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I figure, if yer movin' up then yer makin progress . . .
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:26am PT
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I always figured the progress aspect refered to a relative decrease in wear and tear, allowing more people to enjoy the resource before destroying it. If one method allows 100 ascents and another allows 1000 with similar impact, I'd call that progress.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 07:19am PT
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Werner posted It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
There's no such thing as free climbing .....
Probably the most coherent and wise thing you've posted in years, Werner. Thanks.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Feb 13, 2016 - 07:27am PT
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"Progress" in climbing?
what does that mean?
That's easy.....you are still moving upward!
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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Ideologues no, Visionaries yes. . .it sounds like you didn't sh#t on any ropes, because there's poo coming out of your mouth. . .df
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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Bushman, Trashman, DMT, very cogent.
Aye, upwards is real progress this band of climbers are we.
There's always an appeal to elitism somewhere. Human condition?
Think I'll try to boulder a little today. Gotta train. Get strong. Git projects. Waaaahoooo!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
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For me, progression is to improve my skills. Global progression? That I don't really care about as much. Hearing about feats from the past and The recent ascents is a good way to get inspired. The future would be impossible without the past. All the modern climbs are the result of the improvement to gear, skill and logistical lessons learned by those from the past. A lot of hard work, trial and error by the individuals as well.
No point to compare the first ascent of the nose with the speed climb of the nose. Different gear, different climbers driven by different things. Neither is superior or inferior.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
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Naked Free Solo !!
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Feb 14, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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The progression of aid climbs is moving from placement to placement.
The progression of free climbing is moving from hold to hold.
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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Feb 14, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
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The "progression" from aid to free has turned a lot of classic 5 star aid climbs into mediocre, seldom repeated free climbs. This idea that free climbing is somehow better than aid climbing is a joke
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 14, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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Do we owe the climbers of the past for pioneering the hard routes for us back in the day . . .
Absolutely not. Their motivation was not to prepare the way for future generations, rather to break new ground and explore and see what they could do in an alien environment, push their boundaries . . . and sometimes gain a touch of glory for themselves.
Climb in your own time, neither in the past nor the future.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Feb 14, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
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It took millions of people world wide to create the possibility for one to go climbing period.
Now that is an enlightened perspective . . . we are climbing on the backs of others, climbers or not . . . their blood, sweat and tears. Let us not forget our impacts on the world around us.
The progression of climbing lies in the hybridization of the dominant disciplines: Aid, alpine, big wall, crag, free, free solo, ice, indoor, rock, sport, traditional . . . the best climbers have mastered the majority of these.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
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1pitch or more, no matter.
Kevin, what does this mean? Can you flesh out what drives this or what the basis is for it?
"Free climbing a route is always a superior accomplishment to aid climbing it."
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Feb 14, 2016 - 10:35pm PT
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Climbing is about ascending. As climbers we use different method to go up. Crampons or axes, climbing shoes and so on. I think most will agree that the ascent is more enjoyable and requires much more skill if a climber is able to use his or her body in order to make upward progress. In an efficient way, without the use of devices that make the experience seem like engineering the way up, rather than climbing the way up. Much more training and skill is required.
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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Feb 14, 2016 - 11:38pm PT
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Kevin,
There's a few examples of aid climbs being retro bolted and then passed on from one generation to another of free climbers who can't free climb the route.
In the mean time, someone dangling on a rope screaming, is more sacred than someone standing in slings, grunting.
Jim pretty much nailed my point (pun intended)
Some great shorter aid climbs that see regular ascents, climbs that have interesting and varied tricky placements, are all of a sudden having fixed pins pulled, hooking flakes pried off, bolts added, and overall character completely changed just to create another mediocre 1 star 5.13 that few people ever bother to climb.
Sure, climbing as much free as possible before resorting to aid is the goal, and seeing classic old big walls go free is mega inspiring, especially when they are able to preserve the existing charcter of the climb, however, this idea that somehow any given pitch holds more "value" if it would just.... go.... free... seems pretty much like the next big "So what?" to me....
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 15, 2016 - 12:52am PT
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real climbers drop nuts and sink fingers, dughhhh
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 15, 2016 - 05:42am PT
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To each his own. Personally, I find free climbing to be INFINETLY more pleausurable than aid.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 15, 2016 - 07:16am PT
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An aid route that is onsight free soloed should be renamed immediately and documented, just in case the next FFSO doesn't go well.
Tweeting may be the most progressive way to do this. Since I may not be the most progressive guy on the forum I will look up the definition of tweeting.
tweet
twēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: tweeting
1.
make a chirping noise.
"the birds were tweeting in the branches"
2.
make a posting on the social media website Twitter.
"she talks about her own life, but she's just as likely to tweet about budget cuts and Keynesian economics"
and
[tweet]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a weak chirping sound, as of a young or small bird.
2.
Digital Technology. a message posted on the Twitter social-media service and website: the message may include text, links, photos, or videos.
verb (used without object)
3.
to make a weak chirping sound.
4.
Digital Technology. to post a message on Twitter:
She tweets a lot about movies.
verb (used with object)
5.
Digital Technology. to post (a message) on Twitter for (people) to read:
He tweeted his fans after the event.
Oh my
Urban Dictionary
TOP DEFINITION
tweeting
(v.) To suck your own c*#k
Sean: "Hey Kevin, did you know there is no word for sucking your own c*#k?"
Kevin: "Nah bro, it's called tweeting"
So much for progression.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Feb 15, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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every successful aid climb is a failure to free climb
aid climbing may be enjoyable, but so's masturbating, if you do it right
how many out there truly prefer masturbation to sex?
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 15, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
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So, What's Moonlight buttress looking like these days?
I was quite amazed that Lunar Ecstacy got freed. Not to take anything away from the FFA, but I doubt that line could have been freed in its original condition. I'm not even sure it was freeable when we did it in '98.
I wonder how many folks have acted on this sentiment: "Gee, if that pitch gets nailed a few more times it will make a nice finger crack."
How many El Cap Routes would go free if they had never been nailed?
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Feb 15, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
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How many cracks in modern granite destinations like Cochamo and Greenland are getting nailed multiple times before being freed?
vs.
How many are going up as proud free lines ground-up?
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Feb 15, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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Oplopanax says...
aid climbing may be enjoyable, but so's masturbating, if you do it right
So, you've obviously made mistakes in the past.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
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Agreed DMT. They should be happy with a recorded FFA.
Which is better form; freeing a route but using a piton or adding a bolt vs aiding it solo and clean?
With or without the inflatable sheep?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
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I still like to use "the Harding route".
I wish the next generation of climbers knew the history that they are a continuum of.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 15, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
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"Pioneer" is a pretty strong word, Warbler. Can you give us a list of big wall climbs that were "pioneered" all free, ground-up?
It will be a pretty short list.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 15, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
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When the strongest of the sport are willing state that climbing has progression. I say, from where, to what?
Exactly. where to what. There are many types of progression in climbing.
There may be "Progression of a climb from aid into free" or "Progression of a climb from free to free solo" Or "Progression of a climb to being done clean". Progression from the NIAD to the trifecata solo.
If a aid crux is a string of sketchy hooks and someone later bolts it and makes it into a sport climb is that progress? Certainly not in boldness.
As far a renaming routes I usually like it when they come up with a cool new name. Astroman is way cooler than The East Face of Washington Column. Freeblast is cooler than The First Five Pitches of the Salathe Wall.
I'm sure I've told this story here before but I one time when I had the good fortune to talk to Royal Robbins and I asked him something about "The Dawn Wall", he stopped me immediately and said something like "I'm not sure what most people call it now, but I think Warren's name The Wall of Early Morning Light was one of the most beautiful and poetic names I've ever heard for a climb and I'll never refer to it as the Dawn Wall. I've called it The WOEML ever since. :-). But maybe the free route is the Dawn Wall.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 15, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
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When I did the FFA of Pipeline, Perry wanted me to name it Pipe Loads. While I loved the word-play, I loved the original name more. I guess I really would never have renamed it.
I love The Wall of Early Morning Light as well. Just like I like Call me Ishmael.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 15, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
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Not to denigrate Perry in any way of course. He was just riffing.
Btw, I did an early (1976) ascent of the "Dawn Wall" with Rick Piggott. As I recall, the name change was precisely BECAUSE of Robbin's chop. The original route (and, name) was no longer applicable because you could not start with the original bolt ladder. Rick and I ended up just doing the regular Nose route (with the Burner variation) and then traversed right into the main Dawn Wall dihedrals.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
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Our language betrays our current biases. Opla, Mike and DMT make good points. I'll have to reread Warbler's posts. There might be some solid arguments in there to hang a principled approach on.
Is our bias toward free a bias from a clean climbing ethic? A forward looking passion fueled by our collective iron craft guilt?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
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You guys don't need to analyze all this sh!t all the time.
Just go do it for cryin out loud.
Just go climbin .....
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 16, 2016 - 08:56am PT
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You guys don't need to analyze all this sh!t all the time.
Just go do it for cryin out loud.
Just go climbin .....
Says the guy in Yosemite who is so bored he has to entertain himself trolling the Taco stand.
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 16, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
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R you guys gonna bang now?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 16, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
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It is not the place , nor I the one, yo, maybe Mike would like to show some Contrition Too?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 16, 2016 - 10:32pm PT
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No disrespect to anyone, but I'd be fine if the OP pulled the plug on this thread.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Feb 17, 2016 - 05:39am PT
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Why? Seems tame compared to some. At least it is climbing
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 17, 2016 - 05:58am PT
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Progression is from your first pitch to your last and everything in between......whatever that may be.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Feb 18, 2016 - 12:03am PT
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Now that this thread has almost run its course... here are a few quotes from the British climber Peter Livesey:
"Astroman, that was only the best climb in the world." 1978.
"These great lines could be climbed tomorrow if bolt protection were used, but then the lines would no longer be great, just a series of boulder problems." 1978.
"Very soon many of the traditional psychological features of climbing......will have disappeared. Instead we will have the purely physical gymnastic skills favoured by the bolting boulderers." 1988.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 18, 2016 - 05:24am PT
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Instead we will have the purely physical gymnastic skills favoured by the bolting boulderers." 1988.
Climbing was stolen from intrepid gimps?
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