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John Ely
Trad climber
DC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 26, 2014 - 08:02am PT
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Who knows if anyone is interested in this question?
I think the historical areas at least in the lower 48 make a big upside down U from Joshua Tree to the Valley to Eldo to the Gunks to Seneca and on to stuff in the deeper South, as for instance certain meals in North Carolina. (Of course, lots of these published numbers have been repaired or adjusted.) To Illustrate the arch: e.g, 'Touch and Go', 'Central Pillar', 'Green Spur', 'MF' or 'Ants Line', 'Marshall's Madness' to pick some mid to low end 9s. (Gunks seems to have undergone the most corrections upwards.)
The most striking examples that come to mind are from Seneca. I think Triple S - even though it gets slimier and slimier - is still one of the hardest 5.8s in North America, and recall a time when the Cottonmouth, now a 10a or b I believe, has a guidebook rating of 8+. The 7 called Beesting used to be rated 5.4.
Examples from the past? Other geographical models?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 26, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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One issue with Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Tuolumne, etc is that a lot of the less-than-classic "moderate" routes have seen so few ascents that the guidebooks just have one or two opinions on the routes. So if you get off the beaten path, it's not at all unusual to find very sandbagged routes just because the FA was having a good day and no one else bothered to give the author an opinion. Sometimes you find the reverse as well.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 26, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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The "least sandbagged" would emply no sandbag....meaning the most accurately rated area. Now where do you think that is?
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Nov 26, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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Most sandbagged - Granite Mountain
Least or most over rated - Joshua Tree
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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For me locally (Fresno Area), both the Willow Creek Wall and Squarenail allowed me to onsite a few hard 5.11 's and one 5.12, something I couldn't do when I actually climbed alot. Thanks Mr Spencer.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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Mt. Woodson seemed to be a sandbag. Because everything is short I guess?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:23am PT
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I'm with the OP. The obvious standout - the first and only place I thought of - is Seneca Rocks in West Virginia.
I still have the old yellow guidebook. Man ...
Too bad about Pete Absolom. Is Cal Swoager still around? That dude was STRONG.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:31am PT
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Yosemite Valley most sandbagged in North America.
There's "Valley Locals" with pitchforks, sh!tbags, potatoes to put up your tailpipe, and TKO's if you don't abide .....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:33am PT
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question are ratings soft
question are ratings hard
question are you climbing
No question mark No guide book
go climbing with no guidebook ??
How would you find the rock ??
Is there any Out side clybing??
Close to the inside clybing??
How far from the parking lot??
that is now the measure that is the most important now.
How far from the car?.
that out of my system this has never gone away even though the route chose to fall down,
Loose Lips At JTree, depending on who said what. also one of the ski tracks, actually a lot at JTree.
South Dakota had. some crazy choppers....The Sandblaster...Vertigo..Hairy Pin...Yikes!!
(The Jester on Queen pin?? the last time that I did not check I messed up the names)
Run out slabs South vs West??
I come from The bank and MillBrook has the biggest baddest longest walktokill yourself routes East of the Lone Peak Cirq.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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Index in Washington would be pretty high on the Most list of places I've visited.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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It is also important to look at the date of the FA. Early on a lot of people did not really know what 5.10 was, so 5.9 was thought to be pretty hard. This shifted some of the ratings downward.
The other thing is the type of climbing. The Gunks can be pretty demanding at many grades if you are used to climbing hard slabs or cracks on dummy domes. The first couple of times I climbed there I didn't have that much issue with the ratings, but you had to have some upper body endurance or you would get to the last moves thinking your guns had turned into tiny little T-Rex arms.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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Red Rocks always felt soft to me and StoneHill/Kookanusa seemed to have a little bit of a sandbag feel to me and I just figured the place had a Napoleon complex!!
Some of the older chossy routes in BLodgett can feel hard for their rating...plus, they are chossy!!
What about that Valley 10.c rating? I remember those grades feeling hard for their rating. I think it depends on when it was first done?
EDit: I will second the Index comment above...I always liked the sandbag feel of the place. It goes hand in hand with the place, kinda like the Coors in the hands of folks I met there with their respective micro-beer-bellies. Oh, and they were hiking the 5.11 splitters!
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:08am PT
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Interesting on StoneHill/Kookanusa. I climbed there a lot and felt the ratings were spot on re Yosemite. Then I climbed some 12b called Widow Maker and damm it was hard. This is in the late 80's btw so it could have changed.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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Tahquitz, Joshua Tree are right on by definition.
Some observations tom other areas:
Devils Lake, Wisconsin stiff +2
Mt Lemmon, Arizona, stiff +2
Yosemite, Tuolumne, soft -.5
Clark Canyon, soft -1
Skaha, soft -.5
Owens River Gorge right on.
Alabama Hills soft -1
Kimbrough's theorem I think applies here: "The more obscure the climbing area, the stiffer the ratings." The idea is that in areas that develop in isolation people are thinking "This seems pretty hard, but for real climbers in Yosemite it would be trivial, so we'll call it 5.7".
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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Arizona.
If you see a "+"....take note.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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I agree with Eric and would add:
Squamish: soft -1
Eldo: stiff +0.5
Index: Stiff +1.5
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:50am PT
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Everything is supposed compared to be Southern California 1970's gradings.
I think J Tree is quite variable, some 9's are harder than certain 10a'a
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:57am PT
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My personal experience:
Accurate: Yos, Index, Josh, Idyllwild, Granite Mtn, Seneca, Vedauwoo, most of NC
Soft: Colorado (especially Rifle), Utah, Nevada, Squamish
Really, really soft: Jack's Canyon.
Hyped as sandbagged, but not: Gunks, New Hampshire granite.
Too slick to rate: Devils Lake, Carderock/Great Falls.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Nov 26, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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In my opinion, a large amount of modern sport climbs in the eastern sierra are overrated.
Edit: Clarks, Dike etc are quite overrated. The gorge not so much imo
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Nov 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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I've found, in general, that climbs are more difficult for a given rating in the east especially in the 5.9-5.11 range. Harder routes seem more consistent to me.
The softest ratings by far used to be Indian Creek. A lot of routes were down-rated by Bloom.
Interestingly I've found that as soon as a route is really polished, had holds break off, or became totally wired by the guidebook author it got down-rated. Never quite understood that.
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