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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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I'm with Eric in the application of Kimbrough's Theorum (or is it Kimbrough's Conjecture?), although several Squarenail ratings seem a little soft to me.
I learned ratings defined by standard climbs, but, ironically, some of those standards have had their ratings change over the years. For example, when I first started climbing, Moby Dick Center and Crack of Cawn were the definitions of a 5.9 climb in the Valley. No one does Crack of Dawn any more, seemingly, and the first pitch of Moby Dick Center has a 5.10a rating for its early move. Oh, well. . .
John
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Bad Climber
climber
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Nov 26, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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I've climbed in lots of areas, but THE most sandbaggy is Granite Mountain in AZ. If the route is one of the older ones, it's good to assume about one number grade variance to other areas, i.e. 5.9 on the Mountain is 5.10 just about anywhere else. That sh*t's hard up there!
BAd
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Nov 26, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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Kimbrough's theorem:
The relative difficulty of the rating is inversely proportional to the size of the area.
Perhaps true at one time. My son suggests that with more travel and communication between areas, it no longer applies.
TK
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 26, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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Is there any corollary rule to the theorem?
If the difficulty of the rating is inversely proportional to the size of the area, but if the average difficulty is say 2 standard deviations to the right or left, then the theorem doesn't apply.
In other words, if we have a Jailhouse type sport crag where no grade is less than 5.11, then does the theorem still apply?
Hypothetically, what if the area is the size of Josh, but a ratings distribution like Jailhouse? Does it stilly apply?
Interesting idea!
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
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Well......
When the theorem was developed there were only a few 11s and no 12s......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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Arizona.
If you see a "+"....take note.
I second that motion.
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dagibbs
Trad climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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In general, stuff put up in the 70s and 80s and not re-graded tends to be stiffly graded/sandbagged by modern standards.
Stuff put up more recently, or stuff that has been re-graded tends to be normal to soft.
For instance, in JTree I was headed up a felt-solid-to-me 5.4 (Miramontes), got down, and some dude had a really old guide that had it listed at 5.1. Seemed reasonable at 5.4, would have felt massively sand-bagged at 5.1.
Of the places I've climbed in North America, I'd have to say El Potrero Chico felt the softest in its grading.
For stiff... some of the Gunks grades felt stiff. Some of the "old-school" stuff at my local crags also feel pretty stiff. (I don't expect over-hanging lay-back moves on a 5.4, for example. And there's a 5.9 that a solid 5.11 climber had to French-free to get up.)
Also agreed that some of the Alabama Hills grading seemed soft -- but not, I think, as soft as EPC.
Of course, my commentary applies to stuff graded in the easy-to-moderate range. I don't climb well enough to comment on relative grades from 5.11 on up.
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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So....
Since it is the "Yosemite" Decimal System, actually developed at Tahquitz, by definition, ratings at Yosemite/Tahquitz must be exact.
Right......?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
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Some additions to Eric's list.
Smith. Same as Owen's
Seneca.
Old routes- +1.5
new routes. +.5
Gunks .
Old routes +.5 or +1
Remember the Stannard grade tops out at 5.10 ( ask)
New routes seem Yosemite-ish, but the climbing is different.
Stone Mountain NC
Pretty much Tuolumne. The Rock is better. The runouts are longer. I bolt per pitch is common.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
So....
Since it is the "Yosemite" Decimal System, actually developed at Tahquitz, by definition, ratings at Yosemite/Tahquitz must be exact.
Right......?
Nah. They're soft. ;)
More important is they seem well calibrated. You can get big surprises other places.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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Eric...
Are you back on the rock?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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Seneca mostly sanbagged. bananna 5.6 would 10a pg many places. west pole is pretty funny for 7+ etc. etc. some places in the Daks simeler. Gunks 8+ mostly because Todd swain downgraded some of the 5.9's to 8+. We usually look at NH with a few exceptions as kinder friendlier grade than NY here in the NE.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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Whatever I'm on at the moment.
and what drljefe said:
Arizona.
If you see a "+"....take note. Sure worked for me, Tony and Gary. Especially 5.7+ . ieeeeeeee.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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I can't believe no one has mentioned Cdn Rockies 5.9 A2
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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You will never find easier clip ups than Custer state park. If you can't climb the grade there then you can't climb that grade anywhere.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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Oh and vedawoo has some super easy cracks for the grade also.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 26, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
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Once all is said and done you can either do a climb or you can't regardless of the grade affixed to it. The human psych being what it is, people flock to soft rating areas. Seems that they feel better when failure comes with a larger number attached to it.
Kind of funny when you think about it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 26, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Donini for the win! I hate getting spanked on easy climbs..... I do love Seneca though:)
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Nov 26, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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Hi Larry (Lorenzo). Was out at the boulders this afternoon, doing my core program of wimp routes together with the first few moves of some other of my favorites. Don"t want to get to high yet. Was in shorts, thought it might the last chance this fall.
Tom: ran into a kid out there, Nick Schley, who knew Paul. He met him at the Crested Butte - Aspen ski race.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 26, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
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For wide cracks, Vedauwoo is definitely sandbagged relative to Yosemite. I believe it is due to two completely different things--Bob Scarpelli (you big lug) and the flaring nature of Vedauwoo cracks.
I can think of 5 or 6 Vedauwoo 5.10a to 5.10bs that are harder than, say, Ahab (5.10b). In Yosemite, I would be embarrassed to struggle on anything (wide) under 5.11. At Vedauwoo, you never know.
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