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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 12, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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Is it true that without a deal on the debt ceiling Lawrence Livermore Labs will be closed and all the scientists and techs laid off until a resolution?
Susan
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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not laid off, but on furlough, "Time Off Without Pay" starting at the end of next week...
some legal budget maneuvering will allow one last paycheck.
More problematic, LLNL, and all the national labs, are contractors, not federal employees, so they are not going to get back pay (currently). The various contractual issues are being "worked" but paying contractors for not working is not usually an "allowed expense." That means we're taking a pay cut starting October 18th if there is no budget.
If this drags through November, we won't have health insurance that month as the lab doesn't have the cash, and we're not working... though the lab management is trying to work out some mitigation.
All the national labs are facing this problem, the difference in timing of the closings has to do with the amount of "carry over" the labs have from the previous fiscal year. Usually this is a maximum of 14% of the total budget. In the past decade of disfunction in the House, these funds were necessary to get the labs through the period it has taken to get a budget, or at least a "Continuing Resolution." Unfortunately that time has increased over the last few years... and last year's sequestered budget greatly reduced the funds available to carry over.
The previous shutdown in 1997 was after the House had approved the appropriations bill including the labs, so it wasn't an issue. This time it will be a real problem for most of the lab employees.
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Sheets
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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If anyone wants to climb next Thursday-Sunday I'm free : ) (Well, depending on Congress)
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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Jeez, Ed, that sucks.
Susan
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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who makes the decisions?
Ron, a minority of the House of Reps. will not pass a budget,
this is not a new thing, it has to do with the "rules" of passing appropriations bills with more than a simple majority...
every year we go through a smaller, but similar chaos when there is maneuvering about the budget and reluctance to pass a continuing resolution, for which the rules are generally not known, meaning that for 2 to 3 months the labs don't know what their budget is going to be... last year it was through the first half of the year.
it would seem in a representative government that majority rules are the normal and fair way to govern...
the latest impasse has to do with the reluctance of the House Republicans to bring a budget bill to a vote, having to do with their presumption that they had "leverage" to get the executive branch to negotiate with a minority... the current head executive just having been elected by a majority of the country by the way.
It is the Congress that has the responsibility to appropriate the funds for the government, they are supposed to create the bills based on the executive branch's input that is responsive to the laws... laws passed by Congress and approved by the president.
So far as I know, the president is executing those laws, why are a minority of the House Republicans holding up the budget process and infusing total chaos and economic insecurity?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 12, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
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One side are idiots that have insane demands. They say..Sure we will do what you want if you do something we know you won't do.
Then they get on tv and say.. Obama won't negotiate!!!
No sh#t he wont.. yer idiots asking for dumb sh#t that doesn't make any sense.
On top of that they are basically terrorists that are willing to get American citizens killed for their insane demands.
The "Obama won't negotiate!" line is pretty tired.
Don't wanna play my game lets knock the table over republican obstructionism is getting its view in clear daylight.
BAD FAITH
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 12, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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Disappointed in a government that purports to be "of the people, by the people and for the people." Lynne
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 12, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
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It's pretty disappointing.
There is for sure more blame to place on one party than the other though. It can be said that it takes two to tango, but in this case it doesn't seem to apply. One party is deliberately holding our nations economy hostage.
Hope you don't get furloughed, scientists. We need you.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 12, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Well some who worked there (sample, n=2) do not think closing it would be a bad thing.
Not the two.
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NMR
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 12, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
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We seem to be doing a little better at the Lawrence Berkeley lab, no immediate plans for furloughs yet, but not sure how long that will last...
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Oct 12, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
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Crap, Ed.... I was hoping the Labs would be weathering this better than that. Fwiw, my brother at NASA was furloughed the day after the shutdown started, so perhaps the Labs are doing better in a relative sense.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
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Ron, you can spew crap all you want, the fact is that the House of Reps have not voted on a bill for the budget... why not?
And the people at LLNL are not going to be able to be on indefinite leave without pay, they will attempt to find other jobs... I'm sure you couldn't give a sh#t, you probably think it's a good thing.
But you cannot claim that the House Republicans didn't precipitate this current crisis. And it is a needless crisis which will start to affect many people you know directly.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
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I think you believe what you want to believe, Ron... independent of any objective input.
And you can't even conduct a civil conversation about it, you have to start your name calling and demonizing to show that you are on the only true and good side.
Really, you are a piece of work.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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So tell me K,, what in the above is false? Be specific.
The ONLY think that the President can do in this process is to sign a bill passed by both House and Senate. There is none.
The Senate has passed a bill to fund that open the gov't, at REPUBLICAN levels of funding. The House Repugs refuse to even vote on such a bill, although polling indicates that it would pass, and be signed by the President.
What in this process is unclear about who is against funding the gov't, and is holding the process up?
It is NOT unclear to the American electorate.
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stunewberry
Trad climber
Spokane, WA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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Scientific labs, especially of the caliber and complexity of LLNL, cannot just be unplugged like a toaster and then come back online at the same efficiency when the Stupidlicans finally capitulate. It will take time to re-establish stability in the instruments, calibrations, etc, etc. The cost of the shutdown will be huge for any Federal scientific lab (I'm with USGS) once the power comes back on.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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Ron, having a civil discussion, with both sides presenting their discussion point is how we achieve a balanced (hopefully) solution.
Nursing at the government "tit" is not a productive argument, merely your view point.
Dictators isolate their position and the people they should work with. When that happens it is difficult to produce a conclusion that everyone can live with.
It doesn't matter what party you belong to, it matters getting it done to create a stronger America that benefits the majority of the people.
Just a thought, Lynne
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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The ONLY think that the President can do in this process is to sign a bill passed by both House and Senate. There is none.
Tell that to Lyndon Johnson.
Ed, I'm very sorry this situation is befalling you and the others at the Lab. And I hope LLNL is not too damaged as a result.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
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Here's the real humor: When you shutdown government contracts, the government is liable for the shutdown costs. It's actually more expensive to shut LLNL down, than it is to leave it open.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 12, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
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Ron, I disagree with your last paragraph. Having owned a successful, small sized corporation for over 20 years what you say is simply not true. The private work sector is as vulnerable or more so than state and federal employees.
Unless you are able to afford lobbyists you are at the mercy of any larger fish in your sea along with the mystic reasoning of the State and Feds. With us it was "Big Pharma" as well as continued onerous, burdensome new regs every year of our existence. Twenty years of helping patients, no law suits, was ended because I just couldn't take it all on my shoulders after Dan died.
There is no "safe haven" in our society. Your job and your future are always at risk. Lynne
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 12, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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ED,best of luck to you and yours at Livermore.
It truly amazes me that even this has become politcized.
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