Lawrence Livermore to Close? Ed?
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SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 12, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Is it true that without a deal on the debt ceiling Lawrence Livermore Labs will be closed and all the scientists and techs laid off until a resolution?

Susan
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
not laid off, but on furlough, "Time Off Without Pay" starting at the end of next week...
some legal budget maneuvering will allow one last paycheck.

More problematic, LLNL, and all the national labs, are contractors, not federal employees, so they are not going to get back pay (currently). The various contractual issues are being "worked" but paying contractors for not working is not usually an "allowed expense." That means we're taking a pay cut starting October 18th if there is no budget.

If this drags through November, we won't have health insurance that month as the lab doesn't have the cash, and we're not working... though the lab management is trying to work out some mitigation.

All the national labs are facing this problem, the difference in timing of the closings has to do with the amount of "carry over" the labs have from the previous fiscal year. Usually this is a maximum of 14% of the total budget. In the past decade of disfunction in the House, these funds were necessary to get the labs through the period it has taken to get a budget, or at least a "Continuing Resolution." Unfortunately that time has increased over the last few years... and last year's sequestered budget greatly reduced the funds available to carry over.

The previous shutdown in 1997 was after the House had approved the appropriations bill including the labs, so it wasn't an issue. This time it will be a real problem for most of the lab employees.
Sheets

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
If anyone wants to climb next Thursday-Sunday I'm free : ) (Well, depending on Congress)
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Jeez, Ed, that sucks.

Susan
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
who makes the decisions?

Ron, a minority of the House of Reps. will not pass a budget,

this is not a new thing, it has to do with the "rules" of passing appropriations bills with more than a simple majority...

every year we go through a smaller, but similar chaos when there is maneuvering about the budget and reluctance to pass a continuing resolution, for which the rules are generally not known, meaning that for 2 to 3 months the labs don't know what their budget is going to be... last year it was through the first half of the year.

it would seem in a representative government that majority rules are the normal and fair way to govern...

the latest impasse has to do with the reluctance of the House Republicans to bring a budget bill to a vote, having to do with their presumption that they had "leverage" to get the executive branch to negotiate with a minority... the current head executive just having been elected by a majority of the country by the way.

It is the Congress that has the responsibility to appropriate the funds for the government, they are supposed to create the bills based on the executive branch's input that is responsive to the laws... laws passed by Congress and approved by the president.

So far as I know, the president is executing those laws, why are a minority of the House Republicans holding up the budget process and infusing total chaos and economic insecurity?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 12, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
One side are idiots that have insane demands. They say..Sure we will do what you want if you do something we know you won't do.

Then they get on tv and say.. Obama won't negotiate!!!

No sh#t he wont.. yer idiots asking for dumb sh#t that doesn't make any sense.

On top of that they are basically terrorists that are willing to get American citizens killed for their insane demands.

The "Obama won't negotiate!" line is pretty tired.

Don't wanna play my game lets knock the table over republican obstructionism is getting its view in clear daylight.

BAD FAITH
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 12, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Disappointed in a government that purports to be "of the people, by the people and for the people." Lynne
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 12, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
It's pretty disappointing.

There is for sure more blame to place on one party than the other though. It can be said that it takes two to tango, but in this case it doesn't seem to apply. One party is deliberately holding our nations economy hostage.

Hope you don't get furloughed, scientists. We need you.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Oct 12, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Well some who worked there (sample, n=2) do not think closing it would be a bad thing.

Not the two.
NMR

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 12, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
We seem to be doing a little better at the Lawrence Berkeley lab, no immediate plans for furloughs yet, but not sure how long that will last...
adatesman

climber
philadelphia, pa
Oct 12, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Crap, Ed.... I was hoping the Labs would be weathering this better than that. Fwiw, my brother at NASA was furloughed the day after the shutdown started, so perhaps the Labs are doing better in a relative sense.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Ron, you can spew crap all you want, the fact is that the House of Reps have not voted on a bill for the budget... why not?

And the people at LLNL are not going to be able to be on indefinite leave without pay, they will attempt to find other jobs... I'm sure you couldn't give a sh#t, you probably think it's a good thing.

But you cannot claim that the House Republicans didn't precipitate this current crisis. And it is a needless crisis which will start to affect many people you know directly.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
I think you believe what you want to believe, Ron... independent of any objective input.

And you can't even conduct a civil conversation about it, you have to start your name calling and demonizing to show that you are on the only true and good side.

Really, you are a piece of work.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
So tell me K,, what in the above is false? Be specific.

The ONLY think that the President can do in this process is to sign a bill passed by both House and Senate. There is none.

The Senate has passed a bill to fund that open the gov't, at REPUBLICAN levels of funding. The House Repugs refuse to even vote on such a bill, although polling indicates that it would pass, and be signed by the President.

What in this process is unclear about who is against funding the gov't, and is holding the process up?

It is NOT unclear to the American electorate.
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Scientific labs, especially of the caliber and complexity of LLNL, cannot just be unplugged like a toaster and then come back online at the same efficiency when the Stupidlicans finally capitulate. It will take time to re-establish stability in the instruments, calibrations, etc, etc. The cost of the shutdown will be huge for any Federal scientific lab (I'm with USGS) once the power comes back on.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Ron, having a civil discussion, with both sides presenting their discussion point is how we achieve a balanced (hopefully) solution.

Nursing at the government "tit" is not a productive argument, merely your view point.

Dictators isolate their position and the people they should work with. When that happens it is difficult to produce a conclusion that everyone can live with.

It doesn't matter what party you belong to, it matters getting it done to create a stronger America that benefits the majority of the people.

Just a thought, Lynne
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
The ONLY think that the President can do in this process is to sign a bill passed by both House and Senate. There is none.

Tell that to Lyndon Johnson.

Ed, I'm very sorry this situation is befalling you and the others at the Lab. And I hope LLNL is not too damaged as a result.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Here's the real humor: When you shutdown government contracts, the government is liable for the shutdown costs. It's actually more expensive to shut LLNL down, than it is to leave it open.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 12, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Ron, I disagree with your last paragraph. Having owned a successful, small sized corporation for over 20 years what you say is simply not true. The private work sector is as vulnerable or more so than state and federal employees.

Unless you are able to afford lobbyists you are at the mercy of any larger fish in your sea along with the mystic reasoning of the State and Feds. With us it was "Big Pharma" as well as continued onerous, burdensome new regs every year of our existence. Twenty years of helping patients, no law suits, was ended because I just couldn't take it all on my shoulders after Dan died.

There is no "safe haven" in our society. Your job and your future are always at risk. Lynne
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Oct 12, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
ED,best of luck to you and yours at Livermore.
It truly amazes me that even this has become politcized.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
It truly amazes me that even this has become politcized.

I shoulda known better, but it somewhat took me by surprise, also.
Time to go have a glass of Evian (spell that backwards!)

Susan
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Oct 12, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Enjoy .... SC.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Oct 12, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains,
On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows,
In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame,
The good deeds a man has done before defend him

{Feel free to}List your good deeds and those of the Lawrence Labs{,the Tea Party (so-called)} below. {Don't be shy about bad deeds either.}

EDITS {}
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
zBrown, sometimes.....not always. Life is what each day presents. I'm sure many that died in the incinerator camps WW2 had done plenty of good deeds. lynne

And Ron, you wrote, "state and federal government workers are way more insulted from the economy than the private sector, in every way." I interpret
that as you say, government workers are hit harder than the private sector and I still disagree. Try running a small to mid sized healthcare corporation. Double Dog Dare Ya :D Smiles Lynne
John M

climber
Oct 13, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Lynne, he meant to write "insulated".. not insulted.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Oct 13, 2013 - 12:14am PT
After the dissolution of the USSR, due to a large extent from a totalitarian regime oblivious to the desires of the populace and an unhealthy dose of economic irrationality, the U.S. stepped in and spirited away those soviet scientists that were effective in their weapons programs. I believe these depatriated scientists recieved a hefty pay increase and much better living standards here under USSA government employ. If this drags on perhaps it would be beneficial to get a Rosseta Stone program for Chinese and/or Russian. Just sayin, comrades.
John M

climber
Oct 13, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Lynne wrote,

Nursing at the government "tit" is not a productive argument, merely your view point.

Then Ron responded..

Absolutely agree with that Lynn! I use those terms for simplicity and not for degrading.

This was eye opening to me. Lois was the same way. She would say things that were deeply offensive to someone and not realize how offensive they were, and then complain that she had not insulted anyone. To her those terms were just the way that she talked. The problem comes when a person can't seem to realize that sometimes what they say is offensive. Or they just don't care that another person might find the language offensive. It reminds me of Southerners calling black people "niggers".

The term "government tit" has been used as an insult by the right for quite some time. They attempt to degrade anyone who works for the government, and fail to understand that they are then degrading the police, the fire department, the military, etc. And so that term has become a derogatory term.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 02:55am PT
rick, you been smoking wacky weed again? where do you get this stuff?

After the dissolution of the USSR, due to a large extent from a totalitarian regime oblivious to the desires of the populace and an unhealthy dose of economic irrationality, the U.S. stepped in and spirited away those soviet scientists that were effective in their weapons programs. I believe these depatriated scientists recieved a hefty pay increase and much better living standards here under USSA government employ.

no this didn't happen... Russia still has an active nuclear weapons program.. and I believe their scientists stayed home...

you have a fertile imagination that you often mistake as reality...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:19am PT
One of my closest, best friend's father was head of security at the Rad Lab after he left the FBI (after being shot by a suspect). They do a lot of good work there, but they also develop nasty weapons.

Gimme Shelter, I was suppose to be going to Altamont, but my late brother Mac said the VW was full, I tried bicycling down from Saranap, got as far as Dublin (not the Irish Dublin, but the one on the junction of 680/580) .

Ironic isn't it. UC Berkeley is known for being a liberal-minded (great university, perhaps the world's best) but they have the Rad Lab and the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. Irony in the extreme.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:37am PT
Who needs research? Tea Party types have the bible for comfort.

I'm in Shanghai.....oh boy, secular China is on a roll. The Moors invasion of Spain is going to look like very weak sauce.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:53am PT
Jim, I am researching my navel. It says, Patrick you will never climb 5.12. I looked down at the ex-umbilical cord spot and replied: "Heck 5.12? if I could lead 5.7 I'd be happy."

And you have not been Shanghaied, have you? You should know better than working on freighters that claim they are going to Cabo San Lucas, and you end up in Shanghai.

EDIT

China is on a roll, a billion people on one roll? Is it a bagel or just some brown bread?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:58am PT
Going up to the rooftop for sunset just across the river from a 2,073 ft. skysraper just being completed.....pretty impressive.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 13, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Hey Ron-
As far as who makes those decisions....

Look no further than House Resolution 368, specifically as it relates to clause 4 section XXII. Seriously, look it up.

Here is some discussion of it on the floor, only takes a couple minutes:

http://youtu.be/0Jd-iaYLO1A
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 09:59am PT
Ron Anderson welfare queen can't pay a $2000 hospital bill.

It's one thing for a 28 year old dirt bag climber.

But a man of your age to have to work out a payment plan for a $2000 bill is bullsh-t.
You are the reason why we need mandatory Ins.

I'm sick & tired of pay lazy people's way.
jstan

climber
Oct 13, 2013 - 11:48am PT
It is really easy to post something that makes a thread all about the poster. Making this into a career is even easier. All we targets need do is stop cooperating.
raymond phule

climber
Oct 13, 2013 - 12:34pm PT

Ever wonder where the supporting evidence for mobile bio weapons labs in Iraqui hands came from?

Cheney's imagination?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
I won't mention names, but i have a friend who was a top level scientist and also had the ability to drink the Russians under the table, who was debriefed more than once in the oval office.

oh, an anonymous, highly placed source who told you things that would have been obviously very sensitive (if they had been true) with access to the highest levels of government... bragging about it to a real estate agent...

very credible rick...
...you must be right, forgive me my ignorance and obviously cluelessness to "the way things actually are".
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Oct 13, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
That hurts Ed. There is nothing more demeaning to me than to be called a real estate agent. For the record again, i am a General contractor licensed in two states. I hope for your sake that this budget battle/debt ceiling deal is quickly ended. I hope for our kids sake that in the near future we begin to get on a path of fiscal sanity. I want you to know i harbor no ill will toward you and in fact have a high degree of respect for your accomplishments and your sharing of scientific knowledge. My one point of disagreement is with the ideology that we have reached the zenith of sustainability and the only path forward is to regress backwards. Science has been our salvation in the expansion of the industrial age-why can't it be directed to new discovery and engineering of technologies to keep us on a forward path?
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
I won't mention names, but i have a friend who was a top level scientist and also had the ability to drink the Russians under the table, who was debriefed more than once in the oval office. When a nation state self destructs because of populace discontent and economic stupidity it's former enemies have their way when they "come a helping". Looks like Chinese might be the launguage of the 21st century.

Neato! Since Tom Clancy has died sounds like you do have the "deep throat" stuff to start a new series of best sellers! Rock on...

From today's Santa Cruz Sentinel:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_24298701/government-shutdown-thousands-bay-area-lab-workers-set


Susan
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Oct 13, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Sorry to learn of this Ed. I was scheduled to go to NM next week, canceled on Friday afternoon. I'll touch base when (if?) things are up and running again.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 13, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
By Jingo! They got Clancy?

To convert Ron from being he

Would be a welcome prize

A hero you just may be

Like one who "saves" gay guys


Stick to yer guns, Ron--it's good to see someone play the devil's advocate with such passion and stubbornness. I have lots of popcorn, thank God. Maybe not enough to outlast the shutdown, but lots.

Everyone knows better than you, you know. :)

Be Henry Stamper all you like, but you'll never get far with the way you are talking here. Insults never win arguments. They start feuds.


More science up in smoke.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059988704
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Oct 13, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
donini, unfair, "tea party types have the Bible for comfort." Seems like Matthew 5,6 and 7 does not support the "tea party types."

Oh, and your friend stopped by TPR this summer and gave me your howdy, that was nice. :D lynne
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
Oct 13, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Ed, I'm sorry you've gotten the big shaft too :(


I'm assuming security wasn't furloughed there or especially NM..
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
... General contractor licensed in two states... sorry for my misunderstanding, rick, that explains why you have a "need-to-know" about the president's briefings... obviously just being a "real estate agent" doesn't cut the mustard.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
The sooner we return to a pre-1863 rural, agrarian slave-owning feudal culture the sooner we can dispense with such outmoded doctrines as scientific research and technological progress. Why invent and design a dishwasher when you can keep a human one out back in a barbed-wire cage? More free time to drink and party and have illegitimate children with the local peasant women. Why pay taxes for a US army when I can hire a bunch of local goons to beat the heck out of any non-land owners who dare to raise their voices against my power and authority? Back to traditional values.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^
jstan

climber
Oct 13, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
The sooner we return to a pre-1863 rural, agrarian slave-owning feudal culture the sooner we can dispense with such outmoded doctrines as scientific research and technological progress.

You would really have something had you specified the end of technical process at a year prior to the invention of the cotton gin.

Take care on what you wish for. At the least think it over carefully.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 13, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Actually slavery was on it's way out - the cotton gin is what solidified slavery & started the term white trash.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Oct 13, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
What did Oppenheimer say to Teller?

"Tim McVeigh died for our sins."
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 14, 2013 - 12:06am PT
sorry, ed. that sucks.

stay healthy.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:49am PT
The term "government tit" has been used as an insult by the right for quite some time.

And aren't a lot of that conservative right people who also suck the government tit, or do the Republican congress people pay for their jobs out of their own pocket and do not collect a pay packet from the government.

I am confused, and I like it that way. Ignorance is bliss.

Ed, "cut the mustard"?. I haven't heard that phrase in a long time, actually had to look it up to find the origins.

Jim, climbing skyscrapers can be unhealthy. Stick to the mountains. ;-)

So it looks like the government is back on track, so to speak. But the damage done - financial, personal and our image in the world, just to name a few - by the intransigence of some politicians should not be forgotten or swept under the carpet, or is that rug?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:52am PT
we're back to work tomorrow... hopefully not to repeat all this again in a few months.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Yeah Ed! Back to the grindstone, er lasers, er theories, er, whatever specialty you are!

Susan
matlinb

Trad climber
Albuquerque
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:43am PT
WTF,

I cannot speak for Ed, but in many cases the most interesting scientific questions are not seen to have short-term value, so people are not willing to pay for them. Of course, that is until they become game changers.

Also, for all the grumbling about having to take a few days off work, staff at the National Labs have more job security than those in industry. In industry we live under the constant pressure of acquisitions, mergers, poor quarterly performance, or the changing strategy of SVPs, thousands of miles away.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:58am PT
I'm not so sure Ed was grumbling as much as he was responding to a question raised by a concerned friend. That's certainly how it seemed to me.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Who needs research? Tea Party types have the bible for comfort.

+1
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:57am PT
so why do people like you keep working for the government. You should be working for yourselves and selling that intellectual property to those who seek your knowledge.

I work for the government because it allows my skills to be employed for solving important problems of concern to the commonwealth. I have never thought of ideas as something that springs to mind in isolation from the society and the cultural history that that mind exists in.

If no idea is truly original, then it is difficult to assign ownership to the ideas. This apparent philosophical dilemma was certainly a consideration when the original US patent laws were devised.

In the US Constitution, Article 1 Section 8, "Powers of Congress"
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

recognizing the "Authors and Inventors" a part in the origination of ideas, but putting a time limit on their "exclusive Right" after which the idea passes into the public domain, thus recognizing the role that society also plays in the origination of ideas.

If my particular skill has to do with thinking, which may be an individual trait, my education was through the agent of our own society, the public school system, people who greatly influenced me, colleagues, those things I read, those discussions I had; my ideas can hardly be thought of as totally individual, created by me in a vacuum. No such vacuum exists.

A teacher of mine, who initiated my research career, said once he felt it had been a privilege to have been allowed to conduct the research he had, a privilege conveyed him by the federal government's support of High Energy Physics.

I feel the same way as he, and while he continued his career in basic science, I decided at some point to repay the privilege by working to support applications of basic research of importance to the nation, a nation that also provided me the opportunity to conduct basic research of no apparent application.

While I have considered, occasionally, the idea of working in the private sector, I never could overcome the feeling of repaying a debt to all those that helped me have the career that I have had, to me, they had a share of any "intellectual property" I could claim... so why not go to work for them directly?

While ideas have a utilitarian aspect, and the commodification of ideas a natural Americanization, there are ideas which are, and should be, beyond the commercial realm. Ideas are beautiful things, and some ideas are so beautiful that they not be caged and kept for the pleasure of an owner, particularly when those ideas are all of humanity's to share owing their existence to the existence of that humanity.
MH2

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Good statement about the place of people and ideas in the larger society, Ed.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
I don't know Ed, but I sure like him.

Thank you for what you do.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
While ideas have a utilitarian aspect, and the commodification of ideas a natural Americanization, there are ideas which are, and should be, beyond the commercial realm. Ideas are beautiful things, and some ideas are so beautiful that they not be caged and kept for the pleasure of an owner, particularly when those ideas are all of humanity's to share owing their existence to the existence of that humanity.

One of the most beautiful statements I've ever heard that, I believe, undergirds the concept of open source in regards to intellectual property and the need for far greater transparency in research.

Susan
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 18, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Poetic and beautiful.
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