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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Love your conributions Jbro
You write
Karl:
It at least seems the differences here are rooted in what people prefer to feel.
We are all living in a soup of that brother, believer and non- beliver alike.
I don't need to preserve any mystery. It is ever present. We have different artifices of mind to protect us from it.
OM
*
Baba
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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So My Awesome partner, also a meditator, just came to me saying I realize why I love this Black and White imagary in this photo. It reminds me of my dreams. Then I realized I only dreamed in black and white. I seemed to dream in colors but realized I just filled in the colors with my expectations from previous experience.
Pretty insight honey! particularly without benefit of our links and discussion here.
I though most people only actually dreamed in B/w but unlike too many tacos, I did some research and oustroundingly very little research has data on this basic element of a huge amount of our human experience!
Do you dream in color and how would you know?
peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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"On the absolute platform there is nothing material at all and one will see that everything is actually spiritual."
Yes, but all the more if you serve the higher will of God. If you serve the lower lusts it is more material!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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During World War II many families especially mothers prayed to God to protect and bring their sons home and safe.
Many sons did not return.
Many mothers and or family members became atheists. What kind of God is this they thought.
Many pray daily for their bread and to win the lottery.
After never winning they became atheists.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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The Way of Love
1 Corinthians 13, If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Something from today's LA Times.
latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-morrison12-2009dec12,0,1991554.column
latimes.com
PATT MORRISON ASKS
Bobbie Kirkhart: Atheists United's chief nonbeliever
'It's always a great time of year to be an atheist'
Patt Morrison
December 12, 2009
'No God? No problem!" That's one sign of the season. The American Humanist Assn. is pasting it
all over Southern California buses to make the point that you don't have to be godly to be good.
Atheists United, headed by Bobbie Kirkhart, had a different holiday sign for last Christmas. It
read, "Reason's Greetings," and it was accompanied by one of those stylized Darwin fish, this one
wearing a jaunty Santa Claus cap. It went on display, legally, in a Westside park, outnumbered by
creches -- and someone stole it.
Kirkhart's not surprised. She remembers that when a sign went up on the Glendale Freeway,
maybe 10 years ago, announcing that the atheist organization was cleaning up roadside trash, it
got defaced all the time. Not so much now. And she thinks that's a good sign, too, that atheism
isn't getting quite the bad rap it used to.
This year, the Atheists United holiday display destined for that same Westside park is a gnome
with Charles Darwin's face on it. Kirkhart is an optimist but not a fool. How long it'll stay there,
she can't hazard a guess.
As for me, I think I'll look in vain for a long time yet to find a "Happy Solstice" card in the
Hallmark store.
Is this a great time of year or a terrible time of year to be an atheist?
It's always a great time of year to be an atheist. The traditions of Christmas are almost entirely
pre-Christian, so that's not really a problem for us that some people are celebrating the birth of
their god. We are doing what people have always done when the days are cold and dark -- we
look to each other for light and warmth.
The downside is this so-called war on Christmas. This year, the Gap had an ad that celebrated
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and the solstice. Some Christians are saying it puts the solstice
on the same level as Christmas.
Then it arguably does the same for Kwanzaa and Hanukkah too.
They wouldn't dare boycott based on Kwanzaa and Hanukkah, but they can boycott based on [the
solstice]. It's kind of amazing, such latent bigotry. People who are very insecure in their own
beliefs are frightened by other beliefs and want to stifle them. I think their own insecurity makes
them afraid to have us in the same society and have any access to the same media.
Where in American history do you find the same protection for non-religion that believers claim
for religion?
The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
Certainly most of our Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution and declared independence
were very much concerned about protection of freedom of thought.
Yet many people say this nation was founded as a Judeo-Christian nation.
They get that from the Pilgrims -- and of course today's most conservative fundamentalists
would be quite liberal compared to the Pilgrims. So when people [say they] want the government
the Pilgrims established and envisioned, I don't think they know what they're asking for.
A 1999 Gallup Poll found that 38% of Americans wouldn't vote for a Muslim presidential
candidate and 48% wouldn't vote for an atheist. Federal courts have said religious tests for public
office are illegal, but North Carolina's constitution says that atheists cannot hold elected office.
That law is being used to challenge the November election of an atheist to the Asheville City
Council. So has the public standing of atheists evolved?
I think it's improved somewhat because of the people we call the Four Horsemen: [authors]
Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. It's been exciting to see
atheists' books in airport bookstores, [like] "God is Not Great," Hitchens' book.
And you didn't say "Thank God" when you saw it?
My son-in-law is training us all to say "Thank Godzilla."
So if atheism is indeed beginning to register, why is that?
There's much more access to information. Even in Los Angeles, we've had people come to
Atheists United and say, "I thought I was the only atheist in the world." Being able to Google the
word "atheist" to access information has helped. I think the biggest single factor is eight years of
something pretty close to an open theocracy. People got frightened when George Bush talked
about crusades. There are certainly atheists who agreed with that war, but they didn't think it
was a crusade. That woke people up. And I think that many of [them] decided to stand up and be
heard -- probably mostly just told their friends and family.
You mean they came out?
They came out. Richard Dawkins has an "out" campaign, and you can get a scarlet A from the
Richard Dawkins website to show that you are an "out" atheist.
How big is your membership?
Membership is still low compared to the number of atheists. We are by definition people who go
our own way. On any fourth Sunday, when we have our meetings, you'll find more atheists sitting
in the pews of churches and synagogues than in our meetings. Society has sold the idea that
religion is by definition good, that religion's doing good things, and so people go for the
socialization and the charitable events. People believe the church is doing good, and some are,
of course.
Are these atheists using churchgoing for protective cover?
I have a nephew in Little Rock, Ark., who, if he lived in Los Angeles, would be a serious atheist.
But in Little Rock, with exactly the same beliefs, he's a serious Methodist.
Are atheists persecuted?
Oh, sure. Persecuted is a very strong word for what happens in this country, but I lost a job once.
I had been teaching in a private school, but not a religious one. We had a new director, a really
vocal Christian. He started prayer meetings, voluntary, before work on Wednesday mornings. The
school was failing and it was time for layoffs, and I was among the first. I learned from my
Christian friend that [the director] asked why I wasn't going to prayer meetings. They told him I
was an atheist, and he said, "Oh, we'll take care of that."
How did you become an atheist?
I grew up in a very religious home. My mother was a Salvation Army officer before she married.
That was in Enid, Okla. I call it the whipping strop of the Bible Belt. I loved the church; I taught a
Sunday school class. My first job out of college was as a social worker in South-Central L.A. I met
people of other religions. I had always been told that those people were just superstitious. [I
found] they were as smart as I was -- and they believed [in] Hinduism or Islam. That was a little
disconcerting.
I had always had what Christians call the problem of evil. I had never doubted the existence of a
god, but I thought God was terribly cruel, and then I felt very guilty because I was judging God.
My clients were black and Latino women who were God's most fervent servants, and my God was
at best leaving them to very cruel elements. And I realized that the God that I had grown up
believing [in] could not exist.
I looked at other [religious] concepts, and most of them didn't hold water. [When] my father was
very ill, I found myself wanting to pray for his health. And I didn't believe there was a god up
there who was going to hear my prayers. On vacation, I went to a lonely beach in Mazatlan, and I
said, "I'm not going to leave this beach until I know what I think." And I spent about six hours
there and came off the beach an atheist.
I have to use the metaphor -- was it a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment for you?
"Pascal's wager" [is] the idea that if you believe and there is no God, you've lost nothing. And if
you don't believe and there is a God, you've lost eternal life. What I came to was more practical: If
that's the case, how would I know I've chosen the right god? And what would make me think that
a god who was that cruel, and would punish me eternally for my honest beliefs, would reward me
for trying to make myself believe? And that was the final moment.
What don't people know about atheists?
Most atheists have happy, full lives; have great families. I found my late husband at Atheists
United, and my daughter met her husband at Atheists United. We care about the larger
community. We are a free-thought community. I don't think there's any higher moral force than
the thoughtful, informed, individual human conscience.
Why don't you just hedge your bets and be an agnostic?
I am an agnostic. People don't understand what an agnostic is. There's about a 95% overlap
between atheists and agnostic. I don't know with absolute certainty that there is nothing that
could be considered a god. But I know with functional certainty that there's no god I have to be
concerned about in my life or my observable world. An agnostic says "I don't know." Theism is
about belief, and an atheist says I don't believe. So I don't know, and I don't believe.
How do atheists celebrate the solstice?
We do most of the holiday observances that other people do. You will find [Christians] who don't
do any of the traditional holiday observances because they believe the real meaning of Christmas
is worship; you'll find atheists who don't like solstice parties. But most of us will get together and
there'll be evergreen decorations and maybe candles and we'll sing and have a party.
What do you sing?
We'll probably sing "Imagine." It's a great song.
patt.morrison@latimes.com.
This interview was edited and excerpted from a longer taped transcript. An archive of Morrison's
published interviews is online at latimes.com/pattasks.
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Richard Dawkins used to be married to Lala Ward, the Blonde incarnation of the Time Lord Romana, on Dr Who.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Materialist, atheists = Anthropocentrism, anthropocentric ?
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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And now for something completely different....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Base wrote
So the only thing that makes any sense to me is that part in the bible that says:
Without love I am nothing.
Yes indeed bro
but then you write
science goes WAYYY out of its way to avoid anthropenctric thought. It is almost a guaranteed way to prejudice evidence.
Let me quote myself and explain
Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view. If that view is true, how should we seek happiness in life? Since our entire consciousness is merely an electro-chemical reaction, don't you think society should be spending vast amount of money to concoct Psych drugs that make us feel irie yummy all the time? Why not? We're a bunch of chemicals so chemicals should tune us to satisfaction no? Wouldn't this be a more direct use of science for happiness?
My point is that we have an inate Spiritual bent which is ingrained and assumed like our own skin. A fundamentalist material interpretation of science would logically suggest the happy drug approach I suggested no? Add SPirit, which we automatically have, and it's senseless.
Which brings me to this
Our problem with fundamentalism comes when they actually believe their literal dogma and are willing to kill in the logical pursuit of those ends. We've seen it. The infidels will all be killed. The unbelievers are going to Hell anyway...we'll bring them Jesus with their death..
Science has given us more power than wisdom. We are not acting as if we believe science when it tells us our being is an electrochemical reaction. Some politicians act as if there were no human spirit and similar consequences to above genocides have been seen
Maybe it takes all this for us to search our hearts and choose the expression of God that actually inspires trust, devotion and light
Love
That's where I'm staking my claim and whatever God might judge me for in consequence, I'll have to accept.
Love
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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I am not sure anyone should be praised for their convictions. Unless of course, those convictions are thought to be correct by the praiser AND their maintenance comes at great personal cost.
The conviction that should be praised is the one which is easy, because it is backed up by extensive data.
"Nothing I am saying is really even supposing God. It is about what is good? And how do you practice it without burning a bunch of people at the stake along the way."
This prompts me to ask a question about a person's personal pursuit of good.
Is it meet for a person who seeks to be "good" simply for their own personal edification to subject innocents to extreme torture?
Would it not be more christian for a person to say, "I would rather risk being wrong than to tear my righteousness from the body of another?"
Here's something I suspect is true. If there is a god, a lot of righteous people from the day's of the Inquisition ultimately encountered great surprise.
For their deeds, Hell would be just payment.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Healy asked:
"Exactly what about living on this bountiful planet, today, right now, with no gods of any kind is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about the unknowable is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about dying, and not continuing past that moment in any form whatsoever, is so frightening to you?"
None of these things ever frightened me, even when I was a devoted agnostic with atheist leanings who hated Christians. These ideas did not frighten me,and I believed at the time that death was nothing more than a "long sleep".
Like Karl, I had spiritual experiences that were too powerful to ignore. I suspect most have as well, but some choose to ignore or rationalize tham away.
That's free will, or maybe "freedom of choice" is better.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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If anyone has the time there's an excellent little WNYC show called Radiolab that has been exploring several of the topics getting kicked around here. The shows are each an hour long, available as mp3 downloads or streams, and exceptionally mind-bending.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2009/09/18
After Life: What happens at the moment when we slip from life...to the other side? Is it a moment? If it is a moment, when is that moment? And what happens afterward? It's a show of questions that don't have easy answers. So, in a slight departure from our regular format, Radiolab brings you eleven meditations on how, when, and even if we die.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/03/14
(So-Called) Life: What are the consequences when humans start playing with life? The human imagination has always dreamed up fantastic creatures, but now biotechnology is making it easier and easier for us to actually create forms of life that have never existed before. In this hour, Radio Lab looks at the uneasy marriage between biology and engineering, and asks what counts as "natural?"
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/11/14
Choice: We turn up the volume on the voices in our heads and try to make sense of the babble. On a journey around the country to understand how emotion and logic interact to guide us through our options, we ponder how we get through the million choices and decisions we make every day. Forget free will, some important decisions could come down to a steaming cup of coffee.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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A few thoughts from the teaching today in my church:
"The defining characteristic of a Christian is to love God and love others."
"God's love for us is based upon His character, not any worthiness of ours, because God is Love."
"God's sovreignty works through our choices, but this in no way diminishes our personal responsibility."
"Inward integrity is better than outward reputation."
"When bad things happen, wrestle with it. Christianity calls you to think. God calls you to think even more than you are presently thinking."
"As Christians, we live in the tension between the 'already' and the 'not yet.'"
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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Base 104 -- "and science goes WAYYY out of its way to avoid anthropenctric thought."
Ed Hartouni -- "The models get better and better, as does our understanding of the climate. As that happens, the role of the anthropogenic driving is more important, not less, in understanding the recent climate changes."
????????????
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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anthrocentric - people centered
anthropogenic - originating from people
two different things...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Nice recall Werner, but they are not contradictory.
One is the idea of avoiding anthropogenic influence in the execution of science.
The other is science studying anthropogenic influence in an area such as global warming.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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Thanks monolith ..... Ed the spellings almost the same.
Need to clean my glasses ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Thanks Cintune for those links. I opened them in another tab to visit late night.
Sometime in our froth, it's easy to skip something that might be worthwhile
Peace
Karl
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