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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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Sorry Jan, but your use of the term "first generation" in your post made it sound as if atheism was some kind of new philosphy. There have always been lots of us around, mostly in the closet due to social pressures. It's just not a very popular position in most places ya know. In some places a person could be put to death for it.
Then you drag out Stalin and Mao (and Hitler in your last post, mmm Godwin's law?). We could try to get some sort of body count between religion (those who killed in the name of some god, and of course we could only count the ones we know of, there were likely many more) and modern regimes that suppressed religion (killing to maintain power, ethnic cleansing etc., not specifically under the banner or in the name of atheism). How different do you think the count might be if the religious wars of the past had modern weapons? I'm guessing the planet would be an atomic wasteland.
Concerning your reply to me...
whereas modern atheists seem surprisingly naive in their assumptions about the rationality of human beings.
"naive", now that's just funny.
It's pure hubris to think that a small elite of rational, educated atheists represent the majority of human beings on this planet.
Who ever said that?
None of the above reasoning of course, addresses the actual "truth" of God or spiritual ideas.
Agreed.
And then in a later post...
Life isn't just about function, but also about love, and beauty and meaning.
Yeah, we atheist types got none of that.
I could really lose my manners over a statement like that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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HealyJ wrote
Ok, maybe try this from the other way around...
Exactly what about living on this bountiful planet, today, right now, with no gods of any kind is so frightening to you
Actually, you were the one who said that the world was so bad that you didn't think a compassionate God could be responsible, then in a follow-up post painted a bright and sunny picture of your life. I'm assuming you see the suffering and imperfection in other's lives but yours is A-OK?
Exactly what about the unknowable is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about dying, and not continuing past that moment in any form whatsoever, is so frightening to you?
Joe, it's nothing like that. I was raised Lutheran and our particular church was so patently superfluous that I concluded there was no way to know if there was a God and I just had to hope for the best, God or no God. Everybody seemed like they were covering their butt by kissing God's butt and using the church for a social platform. The teachings were like fairy tales depicting a God who was vain, despotic, and longing for empty praise.
Then, when I was 18 or 19, I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) I had experiences of knowing events before they happened and experiences of divine white light that had an expansive integrated knowingness as it's very nature. After some very deep and unequivocal experiences, I went looking for some spiritual books (which I'd hadn't even known existed until then) to explain my experience, and I was surprised that some mystical treatments of religion had described my experiences to the letter.
The fact that I experienced first and then read about it, gave me more faith in what happened and what I read. Many of those experiences excluded the possibility that I was just experiencing the drug-like effect of neuro-transmitters going on spring break: If you feel an earthquake on the way, tell people, and a week later you experience your first earthquake, it shakes your mechanical worldview. Time and space aren't what we think.
So for me, I didn't need to believe or not believe. I just found what came to me and started looking deeper. When I did that, I found more, and life became much, much better ever since. I acknowledge that no matter how "Spiritual" you are, you are bound to have a limited picture of Spirit and perhaps have wrong ideas about the big picture as well. We are more than our ideas and beliefs though. The path is infinite. The vision of science is also flawed and those who come to a materialist conclusion have jumped the gun in my opinion.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Karl wrote: I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) so you based your views of the universe on your limited understanding of what was possible?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final. The scientific method has a built-in process of being open to revision that is lacking in theologies that claim to be etched in stone. As a result, the quality of life has steadily increased beyond the wildest dreams of generations who had no real option but to accept the dictates of flawed, stubbornly authoritarian dogmas.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final.
This true for both spiritual and material consciousness.
Those that do not fully and completely understand the two (spiritual and material consciousness), will make those poor assumptions you presented.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Karl,
I have lots of respect for your posts and story. I would only say that if the religious/spiritual people on this forum want us atheist/agnostics to keep open the possibility of some kind of supernatural divine being or force, then I think the religious/spiritual people should keep open the possibility that their experiences are simply material in nature.
I had experiences of knowing events before they happened
See Law of Large Truly Numbers where it relates to coincidences.
http://www.skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html
I'm not saying this is the case for what happened to you, but you may want to consider the possibilty.
EDIT: Thought I'd add this quote by J.B.S. Haldane:
I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.
Powerful, unexplainable experiences are no proof they have a supernatural source any more than the Hubble Deep Field photos are proof there is no heaven. "Looking deeper" (a vague and highly personal term, if ever there was one) takes many forms and, as you say, "The path is infinte".
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final.
This true for both spiritual and material consciousness.
Those that do not fully and completely understand the two (spiritual and material consciousness), will make those poor assumptions you presented.
Werner I don't think I'm the only one who wishes you would be a little more open explaining these claims. If you "completely understand" something we poor atheists don't, wouldn't it be worthwhile to turn us on to the supreme truths you keep hinting at having a lock on? Otherwise it's just like "nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, I get it and you don't, so that means you're stupid." Where's the sattva in that?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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The spiritual and mystical view of the universe grows out of a sense that a "simple" description based on the physical (material) properties could not possibly explain the human experience of existence. This supposition forms the basis of the arguments presented on this thread, and in a more sophisticated way, in the discussions of philosophy that have gone on most likely long before they were written.
As our understanding of these physical properties expands, what was once considered "impossible" becomes more and more possible. Evolution, for instance, as first proposed by Darwin, lacked the identity of the very mechanism central to the theory: inheritance. The existence of this mechanism is a prediction of the theory, and the nature of the mechanism central to the characteristics of evolution, now spectacularly verified by our understanding of the genome, and its role in cell function.
In what I consider to be a spectacular advance in our understanding of this "biological machinery" the genome is used to map out the metabolic network of the cell. In a recent article in Science, for example, the ability to decipher the genome leads to predictions on metabolic regulation which is measured in the laboratory by a set of complete, and exquisite techniques. This bacteria has a 816 kbs genome (one of the smallest known) and is physically small (referred to as "tiny"). Yet it is a machine capable of executing 189 reactions in an organized manner, basically defining its life.
Here we sit close to the cusp of completely understanding this bit of life, how it functions in its entirety, how it responds to its environment, what causes it to reproduce, how it adapts metabolically, how it builds itself.
All this driven by a tiny machine, a base pair has 10s of atoms, a million base pairs has 10s of millions of atoms, and these are arranged in such a way as to produce life.
This is almost unimaginable today, though more than imagined, it is studied... probably unimaginable in detail even 10 years ago... and what an intellectual leap 150 years ago.
One can deny that this is possible, this description of life, but what a gargantuan failure of the imagination is that!
I admit that seeing the universe for what it is, a physical system, presents huge problems in explaining our experience as humans. But that difficulty does not make that way of seeing wrong. Nor does it make that sight less inspiring, less beautiful, less wondrous or even less mystical. But by its discipline, it makes it real.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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From Bhagavad-gita
The English word "religion" is a little different from sanātana-dharma.
Religion conveys the idea of faith, and faith may change. One may have faith in a particular process, and he may change this faith and adopt another, but sanātana-dharma refers to that activity which cannot be changed.
For instance, liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire.
Similarly, the eternal function of the eternal living entity cannot be taken from the living entity. Sanātana-dharma is eternally integral with the living entity.
That which has neither end nor beginning must not be sectarian, for it cannot be limited by any boundaries.
Yet those belonging to some sectarian faith will wrongly consider that sanātana-dharma is also sectarian, but if we go deeply into the matter and consider it in the light of modern science, it is possible for us to see that sanātana-dharma is the business of all the people of the world-nay, of all the living entities of the universe.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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wonderful words, but really, one could apply them to fit many situations, they could be appropriated as an explanation of the unity a physical interpretation of the universe provides
why limit the possible by what a very few people thought 10s of centuries ago? when finally humans could actually spend the time to contemplate these issues
we do ourselves no service in adopting the very limited views of those people, our recent ancestors, who grappled with these important issues from the view point of what they knew. Should we not do what they did, and push our understanding beyond those bonds of ancient thinking?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire.
Throw water on a really hot fire = heat is gone, water turns to vapor ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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push our understanding beyond those bonds of ancient thinking?
The stop sign means stop 24 hours a day 365 days of the year unless some higher authority is there to clear the way.
Tomorrow is Monday at 1:00 is not my day and time to stop .....
??????
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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you have to be less metaphorical Werner, I didn't get that post
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Ed wrote
Karl wrote: I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) so you based your views of the universe on your limited understanding of what was possible?
and
The spiritual and mystical view of the universe grows out of a sense that a "simple" description based on the physical (material) properties could not possibly explain the human experience of existence. This supposition forms the basis of the arguments presented on this thread, and in a more sophisticated way, in the discussions of philosophy that have gone on most likely long before they were written.
As our understanding of these physical properties expands, what was once considered "impossible" becomes more and more possible....
And as science goes deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole, it comes closer to dimensions and realities that border on the Spiritual. Why assume it will never reach there?
My experience, then and now, logically and experientially, and confirmed many times over long perods, implies a reality that science does not yet recognize. As I have learned to quiet my mind and open my heart, I have some access to what something some would call "mystical" and can use it as a tool in a similar way that some might use logic. I've met others who have developed this to an amazing degree. They aren't interested in changing your mind or proving anything to you.
Everyone is fine just as they are until they are ready for change, to heal their pain or seek greater peace and love.
I don't take pleasure in my beliefs and hardly think they matter. I'm always open to them changing and my understanding is constantly shifting, seeing that one perspective might be limited in light of a bigger picture.
I take pleasure in Peace and Love within that make the world a magical and wonderful place and make people perfect and OK just the way they are. This just happens to coincide with knowledge that Spirit is Real and can be communed with. If the experience didn't come with that, I'd still be happy, but it does.
When I read religious texts, I can often see underlying truth that may be misinterpreted or distorted by politics, culture and time. Other times, it seems religion has adopted primitive superstition. This is a dense reality on this planet (even though it's a lot less dense than our senses tell us) Both religion and science are operating in the dark, far more than they know.
Like you said in a far back post, you know a lot about how gravity behaves, but you don't REALLY know what gravity is. You can't yet use it like photon or radiowaves. Someday, maybe that will be child's play. Science has only been at it hundreds of years (or primitively for a thousand or two) What hubris Science has to think it knows so much. What will it know in 50,000 years if it doesn't invent more tools of our own destruction before then?
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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ok, I'm not interested in changing your mind either...
over and out.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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In other words
The acceptance of God/ultimate authority is impossible to deny or escape from even for the gross materialist.
The gross materialist will submit to the strongest, and the most strongest is Material Nature herself for the materialist.
No human can defeat her. Thus one must submit to the superior whether materialist or spiritualist or both simultaneously.
Material nature is subordinate to God, she is the inferior energy of the supreme which is the superior, spiritual energy.
The first step in understanding spirit is not God nor the universe but ourselves, the soul, and it's constitutional position.
Without knowledge of the real constitutional position of the living entity (the soul) all knowledge will remain in the confines of gross materialism the three modes of material nature, goodness, passion and ignorance.
Higher than these is, pure goodness, which transcends these three.
On the absolute platform there is nothing material at all and one will see that everything is actually spiritual.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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One interesting avenue to walk down is this:
Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view. If that view is true, how should we seek happiness in life? Since our entire consciousness is merely an electro-chemical reaction, don't you think society should be spending vast amount of money to concoct Psych drugs that make us feel irie yummy all the time? Why not? We're a bunch of chemicals so chemicals should tune us to satisfaction no? Wouldn't this be a more direct use of science for happiness?
And if folks were happy, why would we need to have stupid wars for oil or even burn so much of it? Happy drugs should be priority #1 in a material world.
Sustainability? Who cares right? This is it! Get yours, that's all there is. (maybe that Bush guy really wasn't a Christian)
All this talk of ethics and moralisms in climbing or otherwise would be foolishness. You're toast in the end and no character development really counts for much except in an internal head game.
Love? Just a chemical reaction. Why spend so much on dates and family and crap like that. Let's get the drug companies on a Synthetic Love drug. They'll get rich, we won't have broken hearts
Peace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Wow, Karl, that's the worst thing I've ever read coming from you.
Sorry, but if that's how you feel, you really don't understand the atheist viewpoint at all.
EDIT: Perhaps you are living under this misconception - "In some cases, people might be confused between two senses of materialism: first the philosophical materialism which argues that everything that exists is matter and energy with no place for the supernatural, and second the preoccupation with material objects, comforts, etc." Here's the rest of the article http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsworship/a/WorshipMoney.htm
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Karl:
It at least seems the differences here are rooted in what people prefer to feel. Now I don’t think I am able to read your texts as you mean them but let me make a guess. You appreciate the wonder you feel for very large things you do not know. Mysteries. And you worry that they may all be lost.
Love of mystery is half the reason people get into the technical fields. We don’t know what gravity is – yet. Everyone loves a mystery. What’s the other half?
Technical people are determined to find out. Now they do not worry about losing the mystery. There is not the slightest doubt there will be another bigger mystery right behind. The quantum is perfect case in point. You would think that since we can now calculate so much with that way of looking at things it would begin to get a little dull. Could not be further from the case. It says things that, acccording to our experience, are completely nuts. The field has never before seen so much excitement. Ultimately we are going to have to find out how to change ourselves. The biggest mystery of all.
As a side benefit “finding out” has a long history of assuring we have things like food and water we need so we can go on enjoying the mysteries for another day. Other bad things happen of course. Which is another mystery yet to be penetrated. Why do humans insist upon making bad things?
As a minor point. Understanding what nature has built over the last fourteen billion years for sure means there are immensely subtle mysteries out there. The same can’t be said for rock climbing. I have been saying for forty years now, we lose a lot when we have a guidebook to everything. Where’s the mystery in that?
There are some mysteries that do need to be preserved.
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