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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Would it not be more christian for a person to say, "I would rather risk being wrong than to tear my righteousness from the body of another?"
Here's something I suspect is true. If there is a god, a lot of righteous people from the day's of the Inquisition ultimately encountered great surprise.
For their deeds, Hell would be just payment.
At some point perhaps the only solution is forgiveness. I've looked at the molestor, he was molested, where does guilt begin?
We look at the perpetrators, and say they deserve punishment, and then see the punishment of the world and say it falls to innocents. If Karma and incarnation are true, there is justice and yet we are unsatisfied.
All our judgements are reflections of ourselves.
Forgive everyone, Forgive yourself, and only then is peace
Doesn't mean you can't fight, but within..Forgive All
Peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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I used to see Jesus at work. Everyone called him "Chuy".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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Germans made advances in nuclear weapons by studying Atharva Veda and Rig-Veda.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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WB,
Doesn't it describe a nuclear war? Sounds like the Sons of God knew war and could harness the mass energy of the atom way back when.
BASE104,
Rayleigh scattering or is it Mie Scattering, can't remember at the moment? The blue freq. of visisble light scatters the most when interacting with atmosphereic gases. Sorry, couldn't resist. Jeopardy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Base
Thanks for thinking on all these things.
I'm just saying knowledge and power are linked, particularly when the money for science comes from budgets concerned more with better killing than better living. Scientists are humans, should know better, and rebel rather than funnel into the death machine.
If everybody on the planet had a nuke, that would be the last moment on the planet. Power is dangerous and that power is more and more accessible.
We should hold religion accountable for it's abuse. Science too. There ought to be a science hall of shame for inventors of every new death technology. At least Nobel had the guts to make amends.
this quote
Shoot, I would bet my last dollar that many religious people here would believe something else if they had been born in another part of the world.
This is certainly the truth. None of us get a pass on seeking the meaning of Life and ourselves, God or no God. If you believe everything you've been told so far, you haven't been looking
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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For WB,
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm#Have We Shattered the Atom Before?—Signs of a Former Nuclear Age
There are too many details here that are frighteningly similar to an eye-witness account of a nuclear explosion—the brightness of the blast, the column of rising smoke and fire, the fallout, intense heat and shock waves, the appearance of the victims and the effects of radiation poisoning. More than half a century ago these ancient descriptions were considered mere fantasy—but with the advent of the Nuclear Age in 1945, suddenly the texts from ancient India take on a whole new meaning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Ever click "reply" and then get busy with something and forget what you were going to say.
opps.
Just thought I'd share that.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Time brings all things to light ......
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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BASE104,
My degree is in Physical Geography, and I teach Physics and Geoscience at the HS level.
I see the oilwell (where to drill) map is overlaid on Township and Range, 36 sq. mile grids. Actually, I'm just guessing about what it shows, but didn't you say you worked in the petro industry?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Indictment of humanity, godless nor not
The last time I checked, The world's fastest supercomputer was devoted to modeling fallout patterns for nuclear blasts. Why? So we can figure out how to actually use these things and come out alive ourselves.
Isn't there something else we could be putting our treasures into? If there's no God, then we are just as bad.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Jan: Why exactly then, would anyone want to settle for a simple reductionist, mechanistic view of our lives, the power of our minds, our planet, our universe, the mystery of death and all the other things which are unexplained so far?
There is nothing 'simple', 'reductionist', or 'mechanistic' about the world just as it is, without mystical embellishment. Hell, the details of misfolding proteins in a Prion is, unadorned and by itself, sufficiently imbuded with enough wonder such that it requires no further mystery. And human behavior? Love, empathy, envy, jealousy, greed, grief, tool use, mathematics, commerce, prostitution, premeditation, foresight - all exhibited by animals. All are organically rooted in brains which have evolved more sophisticated capabilities over time. Anyone who thinks those are simple or unique to humans really hasn't bothered taking much time to learn enough to understand the power of nature is anything but simple, reductionist, or mechanistic.
And why the overwhelming and desperate need to project absolute answers onto the 'mystery of death'? What's wrong with it simply being an unknowable 'mystery'.
Karl: you were the one who said that the world was so bad that you didn't think a compassionate God could be responsible...
I don't consider the world so good or so bad - I consider much of human behavior and unescapably visceral realities of life (congenital defects for example) to lack empathy or compassion to such a degree that there simply can't be a sentient gods who aren't responsible for it all. The very lack of any sign of compassion is exactly the logical problem with gods.
Karl: Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view.
There is nothing materialistic about an 'atheist view'.
Karl: Sustainability? Who cares right? This is it!
You can't be serious! You've got that one completely ass-backwards. It's the folks who believe the Earth is simply an inferior and temporary waypoint - and one made by god for man to exploit - who are responsible for the majority of wealth accumulation and environmental damage in the world today. Wanna bet on the afterlife beliefs of the those who control 95% of the world's resoruces today? How about those of the ruling politicians of industrial nations and third world nations with significant resources? How about those of the board members and executives of the world's top 5000 corporations?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Base 104-
I enjoyed seeing your topo which looks a lot like a modernistic stained glass window. My father was a geophysicist for Phillips and head of a seismograph (doodle bug) crew in Texas when I was 3 - 10 years old. We moved about twice a year all over that state and lived in Enid, Oklahoma, at one point.
All of my Dad's topos and seismographs were in black and white. One legacy of all his paperwork though, is that my sister and I can read topo maps with ease, so I was amazed when I taught Outward Bound, that it was the hardest thing for my students to grasp.
I heard the religion versus evolution issues at our dinner table from a young age as well, since my father fumed that the fundamentalists whose ranches he was shooting for oil wanted to know how it all worked and then got mad when he talked about the age of the earth and the whole process of forming petroleum!
Meanwhile, all that moving around and adjusting to new schools and friends, gave me an early interest in cultures, since parts of Texas are Hispanic and others deep south (segregated in those days), and others Panhandle cowboys. I've always figured it was the oil business that made a cultural anthropologist out of me, and I've always thought it normal to combine both cultural understandings of the world and science. Your discussions have really brought a lot of childhood memories to mind. Thanks!
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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To make this sort of a climbing thread, I will admit a secret.
One time I was really out of shape and hadn't been climbing much. I had to grab a sling to rest on Outer Limits.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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That's OK. The jeering session was sort of hellish anyway.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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HealyJ
I doubt we'd find whatever the pledged beliefs of those top execs and politicians are, that either of us would support how they act. Religious faith can be skin deep. Actual actions betray the selfishness and lack of real faith of a man.
You write
There is nothing materialistic about an 'atheist view'.
Yes, this is indeed the case but I perhaps used my words wrongly. I'm saying that the atheist view means that everything is just plain materials! We are just mass and chemicals, put together by evolutionary chance. Our happiness and nobility are our own games, played and extinguished in time.
You might have noble goals about the future and sustainability, I believe they are an inheritance from your inner spirit. They are not inherent in the makeup of a material being who will cease to exist at death.
I have trouble thinking anyone who is actually atheist would ever consider climbing. We have an innate sense that death is not the end. If everything stops forever if you deck, why climb? Too high a risk, no reward could compensate. We all know intuitively death is not the end or we wouldn't climb. It's madness!
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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We have an innate sense that death is not the end.
You keep making assertions like this that, I for one, do not believe at all. I believe what you call an 'innate sense' is simply a common sign of acculturization. Now I have no problem if you want to make the case that ego has a hard time with the prospect of death being the end.
I have trouble thinking anyone who is actually atheist would ever consider climbing.
So you only climb because you always have a celestial belay. Duh - of course - all this time Werner has only had the appearance of free soloing! It's all a matter of risk perception and climbing is by far one of the least risky things I do in life.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:57am PT
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Base - pretty much on the money.
The production of 3D Proteins from amino acid chains is about as mysterious as the universe comes. At one point I somewhere read that some proteins fold into wildly complex shapes in a speed that represents the fastest known unit of information. To give you an idea of the scope of the complexity, the largest and fastest supercomputers we'll have five years from now will only be able to model the most trivial of folds and probably take days to do that. Also, if we can't find and predict intermediate folding states then to sort through all possible folds from the starting amino acid chain would require an astronomical amount of time.
"The computational effort required to study protein folding is enormous. Using crude workload estimates for a petaflop/second capacity machine leads to an estimate of three years to simulate 100 microseconds [of folding]."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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HealyJ wrote
So you only climb because you always have a celestial belay. Duh - of course - all this time Werner has only had the appearance of free soloing! It's all a matter of risk perception and climbing is by far one of the least risky things I do in life.
Duh. ask Werner why he's not afraid to deck! I used to solo a lot. It wasn't that I was assured of not falling, although I had intuition that I wasn't going to die. It's also feeling that if I did deck, then Life in some form would go on for me.
Ironically since we're talking about this, an astrologer in India had predicted two years ago that I would suffer an ankle or shoulder injury around this time. Boom, ruptured my achilles. I didn't intent the piece to blow. Never ever been this injured before.
When it's your time...it's gonna get you somehow.
as for climbing being "one of the least risky things you do" let me quote you from the X rated thread
One recent route which I've repeated twice has once pitch with a crux consisting of a structure of three interconnected loose flakes where you have to 'set' the two flakes on the right to lock or anchor the one on the left into place and then use it exclusively to pull the crux. The pro below it is ok, but it's an overhanging section above a slab and so it has an R rating for both the potential for pulling the three flakes down on yourself and for the possibility of a slab fall if you and you belayer aren't paying real good attention to the slack situation.
I don't know what all these more hazardous things you do Joe but the ideas scare me. Be careful bro because if you make one mistake. That's it!
;-)
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:19am PT
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Too funny
Probably some particle physicists get inspired by some weed but then have to quit so they can remember all that complex stuff!
My problem is the word "faith." I can't quite stomach that word.
It's a word, like Love, that means different things to different people.
Fact is, you have all kinds of faith in all kinds of things. Faith is the part of your worldview that you believe enough to bank on. You can't pretend it and have that do any good.
Beyond that, we're talking about 'hope'
Peace
Karl
edit
I didn't realize I could die until some time later.
I didn't imagine any less from somebody with a handle like yours
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