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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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But no matter how you qualify it, it still means "imaginary friend." Or foe, for that matter. An abstraction, a will o' the wish, an excuse for personal accountability, in descending order of integrity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Exactly. I'm with you. But if one of the goals is to get past the ancient theism of 2,000 years ago, it helps.
Here it is from another angle: I'm for moving on. I'm for trying new stategies. For example, that the 20th century didn't get around to.
I can go to a football game and chant, "God sucks!" or "God is dead!" and hoot and have a good day with my friends. And I can also get together in another context with others and draw the nuances between Diacrates, Hypercrates, Mesopotamian Gods and Hindu Gods. That's also rewarding.
So, it's all good!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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I am a spiritual being having a human experience. My dog, Steve, is a spiritual being having a canine experience.
Thank God Hypercrates* I was born human in the 20th century, not human in the 13th century. (I don't think I would've lived long.)
You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everybody dances with the Grim Reaper.
Pesonifications. I love em!
*Not God Jehovah!
But enough of the academia. I'm done. Back to the babble and debauchery.
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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(Sermon verses from Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 from John MacArthur’s, “Jesus’ Power over Death”)
Mark 5:21-24, And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him, and he was beside the sea. 22 Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name, and seeing him, he fell at his feet 23 and implored him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well and live.” 24 And he went with him....
Mark 5:35-43, While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?” 36 But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.” 37 And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James. 38 They came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and Jesus saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 And when he had entered, he said to them, “Why are you making a commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him and went in where the child was. 41 Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Talitha cumi,” which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” 42 And immediately the girl got up and began walking (for she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement. 43 And he strictly charged them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.
John 5:21-24, For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 14:19, Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Luke 7:22-23, And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 23 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
The Coming of the Lord
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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DIRECT! From a LOVING god, to YOU!
NOT written by humans 2000 years ago, but the WORD OF GOD
GOD: Coming to a Theater Near You.
Kill, Rape, Enslave: The Saga Continues
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
Pillage and Plunder
For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight! The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to collapse! Nineveh's exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)
An Angry Jealous God
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
God Will Kill Ethiopia
"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)
God's Human Slaughter Fest
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters' homes with loot. "On that day," says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground." Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)
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roadman
climber
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um...i was out skiing today and you know I'm pretty sure DOG was not out there... yep. pretty sure God was no where to be found.
I'll keep looking man. I did find some sick powder as a consolation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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It's cool, Wes, it's just language. I'm not at all thinking of the ghost-like (ghostly) spirit. That's so 20th century. I'm referring to carnate spirit. In other words, flesh-based, flesh-driven spirit. In other words, still, biotic spirit.
I know. It's confusing at first. But like Largo said about big wall climbing, confusing at first but plain as water once you're used to it.
Adapt the terms. Then work through the language. With the oldbook fundamentalists. It's the only way. And in case your you're a Sam Harris fan, so am I. I agree with him that the moderates are running interference for the oldbook fundamentalists. I'm no moderate. I'm no appeaser. Hard-core.
I'm only compromising in language issues because I know terms like "spirit" won't go away.
"C'mon, climb, where's your spirit today?" Or... "Where's your spirit?! Damn you! Fight! Fight! Fight!" (10 points if you know what movie that last line came from.)
Spirituality requires a non-material aspect of being. Incarnate spirit requires it. Not carnate spirit. Two different forms of spirit, one old in concept, the other new. Incarnate spirituality (ghosty spirituality) is as bogus as astrology.
To be clear, my carnate spirit dies with my body. (BTW, I'll probably have some kind of Tibetan sky-burial, see another thread. You?)
All I ask, try it for a couple of months, see if you don't get traction with the supernaturalists in your discourses with them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Wes wrote-
I've played with adapting the language. It made me feel hollow and dirty inside. It is alright when you are talking to kids I suppose. But when you are dealing with adults (even if they have the mental capacity of kids) I like to keep it clear, lest they make some irrational decisions that affect my life based on their misunderstanding.
For instance, people like 777 openly anticipate a great atomic war between Iran and Israel. Without it, their insane interpretation of bible prophecy will not be fulfilled. They vote... Bush et al pander to them... etc... The same happens on the other side. Self-fulfilling prophecies of death and destruction don't sit well with me. Nor do their beliefs that their delusions should dictate how others live their lives, who they choose to marry, which surgeries they can have, or what bullsh!t gets taught as legitimate science.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah, all I would add to what you said: context is important (you gotta know your audience) and the fact that there is mixed company so to speak on this thread makes it 5.12+. But we're here! In mixed company!
Here. One last bit: regarding the oldbook faithfuls you cited. You don't see me responding to them! I pass through their posts knowing i've seen it or heard it a thousand times.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Wes- Ah, I just caught that next to last line. I'm not one of those who'd call it a bad habit. Just sayin.
What's going around OUR community as you probably know already is a growing awareness for the use of a variety of strategies. Throw em against the wall and see what sticks. And a lot is sticking, now more than ever. So I'm a believer (i.e., mental holder) of the use of a variety of strategies.
I'm pretty confident. By this century's end, the old leadership in "belief discipline" practice (with its reliance on supernaturalist doctrines and mesopotamian gods and ghosts (ghostly spirit), etc.) will be history.
But like you I'm also concerned that it IS a race against time. -Which is what drew me into this crazy-quilt field. (That is, besides the environmental issues, population explosion and biodiversity destruction.) If guys like you and me don't "live up to" our education (science education and general life education) and stand up to these oldbook fundamentalists, then who? So, kudos.
(By the way, have you seen the documentary, 11th Hour, just watched it, I thought it had some pretty good vignettes in it that relate to the race against time and how ignorance is a major obstacle in the path.)
"...will be history." Let me clarify: In America and Europe at least. I'm not at all hopeful about the Middle East. Have you seen The Hurt Locker? I think the Middle East is in the Hurt Locker for a long time to come. Pretty scary.
Thanks for the words.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Very interesting discussion guys and I too share your frustrations. After being out of the country so long, this thread has been a real education. I don't think the problem is belief however, but the cynical use of belief by a particular political faction in our country. We have always been a haven for strange cults and lived in peace with them for the most part, but they seldom tried to take over our education system or change the constitution before. Personally I don't think they will ever die out nor will ridiculing them bring about change. Religions based on martyrdom last forever.
Here are some other thoughts.
1) If you design a hyper rational belief system that focusses on defining terms, no one but a few intellectuals are going to be interested in that. You're talking philosophy rather than religion.
2) It seems to me that a modernized, responsible humanism would be more inspirational. The program I referred to you that didn't recognize was based on calls to 911 about life and death emergencies that humanitarian people got involved in to help their fellow humans. That does inspire people. Since Confucianism, a 2,500 year old humanistic philosophy doesn't travel well outside of East Asia, there's room for a western version of inspirational humanism.
3) The problem is fundamentalist Abrahamic religions - Christianity and Islam mainly, since there are very few uneducated Jews in America at this point in time. Eastern religions, modern Catholics who go to church and ignore papal teachings on things like birth control, mainstream Protestants and New Thought Churches are not the problem.
4) The average person still wants a place to have a wedding and funeral, so I think providing those services in a humanistic non sectarian way would interest a lot of people.I also think if you provided a day care service with the teaching of basic non sectarian humanistic values like honesty to children, you'd be swamped. You might even provoke a movement to introduce something like that into the schools.
5) Religion appeals to people because it makes them feel better about themselves and life and makes them better people. If a certain segment of our population looks forward to nuclear war and the end of the world, that's a good indication that our society has not been a hospitable place for them. They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". There's a lot to be said for the idea that religion died out in Europe when state sponsored social benefits were ushered in.
Perhaps the best thing non believers could do is build a political coalition to make our country a more secure and comfortable place for everyone. Given the seeming collapse of the health care bill based on one senate seat changing hands, I'd say there's a lot of work to be done there which would be more fruitful than having endless debates about the existence of God and what to call God. Just my opinion.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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And what does Goby and 7's LOVING GOD say about SLAVERY?
Now Showing at at Theater Near YOU!
This is the WORD OF GOD.
The Bible was NOT written by humans, so ONLY GOD would say THIS!
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Is there a DIFFERENCE between the Old and the NEW Testaments?
SURELY, the NEW Testament, being more MODERN, and NEWER, and written
at a LATER DATE, by a more EXPERIENCED GOD, would not look at SLAVERY
in the same, IGNORANT way that the Old Testament did.
RIGHT?
NO, NO, NO
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but SLAVERY IS STILL APPROVED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
WHEN will GOD finally GET IT RIGHT that slavery is WRONG?
NEVER, because GOD STILL believes slavery is just FINE.
God has to THIS DAY, never sent us his WORD that he has CHANGED HIS MIND.
THE ASSHOLE.
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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"Religion appeals to people because it makes them feel better about themselves and life and makes them better people. If a certain segment of our population looks forward to nuclear war and the end of the world, that's a good indication that our society has not been a hospitable place for them. They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". There's a lot to be said for the idea that religion died out in Europe when state sponsored social benefits were ushered in"
That's crazy, we don't want nuclear war or the end of the world! And anyone can be saved!
I wish the best to you all, God is Good, you have my good will, I can't do this anymore! Cheers, Matt
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jstan
climber
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There. Now it has actually been said out loud.
"They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". "
As I understood it the basic tenant of that religion was that you had no assurance that you were going to be saved. God makes that decision.
Not you.
If you did presume you would be saved you were trying to stand in god's place.
I may be wrong but in the west people pre-empting god's decision in this way were often referred to as "pharisees" and were not looked upon kindly because of their treatment of god's authority.
How far we have come.
I went back and studied the several sects of pre-christian and pre-Roman Jews. The pharisees were noted for their very strict observance and belief that god would treat them specially in light of that observance. This supports the use of that term in western cultures during the 19th century at least.
Edit:
On thinking about this i suspect I have been correct in refusing to use the word "christian." What we are looking at is, as Jan suggested, something that has nothing to do with christ but has been melded together with politics - just in order to gain power over us.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Maybe the proof of Evolution is that we don't hold the same savage belief systems (as posted by Norton) that people embraced 2-3000 years ago. (even the Christians and Jews who pay lip service to the Bible as the unerring word of God don't really buy the parts on slavery, killing, multiple wives and so on)
This has no bearing on whether there is God or not, just as the ideas of primitive scientists have been proved wrong now but nature still has it's laws.
Sort of like all the tourists look at El Capitan and say "nobody could ever climb that" and yet they do, and if you look at climbing in hollywood movies, you might say "that's ridiculous, nobody could actually climb a rock like that" and yet climbing exists!
So I agree that the things Norton has posted are pure ancient culture and not real spirituality, and yet I experience the Spirit loud and clear every day. The more I commune with it, the more peace of mind I have and the more open my heart is. It never tells me to skin anyone alive but to Love, accept, and understand All without regard to whether they are on my team or agree with me or not
Just sayin
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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Karl, I "think" I experience the same feeling as you do.
Perhaps, we are both just good men.
No reason to not feel good sometimes about yourself.
But why would human emotion necessarily have to come from someone or
something apart from our own selves?
ps Karl, I stumbled upon what you once wrote about Lois, unending
feedback loop, etc
brilliant
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl, I "think" I experience the same feeling as you do.
Perhaps, we are both just good men.
No reason to not feel good sometimes about yourself.
But why would human emotion necessarily have to come from someone or
something apart from our own selves?
It doesn't. Your own Self is your Soul. You don't HAVE a soul, You ARE your Soul, the very source of your awareness, Peace and Love arise from there but are distorted and obscured by the way we get wrapped up in the stories and illusions our mind-self images stir up. The real confusion is about what is yourself.
Even in Christianity Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is within. The Bible says man was created in the image of God. We're not talking about meat but soul here. Know yourself within and you know God, which is also within.
This whole thread is fearing and hating some idea of God which is projected from our wounded child who resents a father figure God who let them down. This illusion is nothing like reality.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan- Good stuff in there. I hope to get back today and delve into it deeper. Just wanted to take a moment to tell you thanks for posting it up.
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MH2
climber
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ps Karl, I stumbled upon what you once wrote about Lois, unending
feedback loop, etc
Your own Self is your Soul
Hmmmmm...
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jstan
climber
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Was overpopulation a severe issue during the Aramaic period? Perhaps population got ahead of increases in food production during their transition to agriculture? Perhaps desertification had already begun to set in?
Studies of that era might help us understand the degradation in social order we are encountering currently world wide as we go into our own overpopulation crisis?
Historically people heading off to do injury to someone have held up in the air one of two items.
A flag
Or the bible.
I think it was Lincoln who pointed out, both sides invariably claim god is on their side.
By the sheerest good luck god's complete absence of power on the earth's surface has spared us all an even worse fate.
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