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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Came across an interesting article here a few years ago, still easily found thanks to Google:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/601395/posts
Meteor Clue to End of Middle East Civilisations
Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile-wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs.
Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding.
The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC.
They include the demise of the Akkad culture of central Iraq, with its mysterious semi-mythological emperor Sargon; the end of the fifth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom, following the building of the Great Pyramids and the sudden disappearance of hundreds of early settlements in the Holy Land....
A date of around 2300 BC for the impact may also cast new light on the legend of Gilgamesh, dating from the same period. The legend talks of "the Seven Judges of Hell", who raised their torches, lighting the land with flame, and a storm that turned day into night, "smashed the land like a cup", and flooded the area.
So, given that most of the Judaic tradition was blatantly ripped off from its Sumerian predecessors and repurposed for political motives, it wouldn't be surprising if all the references to pillars of fire, death from above, etc. were traced back to this cataclysmic impact, the cultural memory of which still lingers on thanks to Constantine, Gutenberg, and King James.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:25am PT
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Here's more information on climate change and social upheaval, this time correlating the failure of the Asian monsoon with the fall of Chinese dynasties.
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/asianenvironmentalhistory/a/ChinaMonsoon.htm
Can you imagine what the effects of global climate change through global warming and increasing overpopulation will be?
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roadman
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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I think it was Lincoln who pointed out, both sides invariably claim god is on their side.
jastan I think you hit the nail on the head...
How about that? I hate to get away from me true passion (teaching evolution because it's so cool) but i digress.
What do you GOD DOG pea's think about waring foes both saying god's on OUR side?
Not a real support of his/her existence. Unless his/her goal is to kill us all off!!!!!
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roadman
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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And if their is a GOD DOG why not have all "his/her peeps" believe in one religion? under one tent so to speak....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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Interesting article on a Stonehenge- like temple in southeastern Turkey that is 11,500 years B.C. - 6,000 years older than anything similar.
The startling aspect of it is that it was built by hunters and gatherers rather than agriculturalists and thus turns our whole theory of the development of religion, agriculture and civilization upside down.
It seems that a huge temple complex where no one lived brought about the invention of agriculture and civilization rather than vice versa.The author intimates that religion is part of our genetic inheritence rather than the product of civilization and a priestly class.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/233844
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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That's a great teaching tool for Physical Anthro, Ed.
Thanks!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 23, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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The author intimates that religion is part of our genetic inheritence rather than the product of civilization and a priestly class.
Oh boy, it's the "either-or mentality" again. How about both (a) genetic inheritance and (b) product of civilization / culture.
For anyone truly interested in an intelligent discourse on the anatomy and history of religion and supernaturalist belief, it can be found here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
And for dessert, one on morality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8IEo
Andy Thomson kicks ass.
Internet Video kicks ass.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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Archeologists have studied desert kites in Irag built to capture and kill wild animals such as gazelle that are too fast to run down. (The indians in the US did the same by running herds of buffalo over a cliff.)
http://alsahra.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/khaybar-desert-kites.pdf
One picture of a kite that was thought to consist of low earthen walls.
Eventually the gazelle population collapsed because of our predation. Another Smithsonian write up on Gobekli said tens of thousands of gazelle bones were found directly on the site. Lunch.
Alright, I will here lapse into hypothesis.
You have hunter gatherers who are unable to outrun their prey, the prey is present in huge numbers, there are no cliffs, and you can't get close enough to spear the prey. Clearly kites were eventually used and what might be the first attempt at a kite? You get enough people together so that they can form two walls funneling the prey into an enclosure. You need to pull three bands of hunters together rather than having them working uncoordinated. The groups of people would have had to be increased in size. if it worked the larger groups could have been supported.
Now eventually a way would have been sought to prevent the loss of gazelle who choose to run through the lines of people and to escape. After all the gazelle who did not think to run through the lines had all been killed, gazelle would have gotten harder to catch this way. The walls would have needed to be better and the number of people increased further. Natural. What kind of structure might you choose to place along the earthern walls. A picture from the Smithsonian site:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html
Do you suppose a gazelle might, in a dead run, take such a stone to be a person?
And since there was so much food from gazelle and from wild boar we would have amused ourselves by scratching into these stones the figures of the animals we have been killing. Now limestone is pretty heavy so such figures would have been easiest to build where the rock was located close to the place where it would be needed. How to test all of this hypothesising? Easy.
The gazelle would naturally have gone to a river for water. You would need to build a kite near such a watering hole so that people crossing the river from the other side would drive them directly into the kite. Now rivers flood so the earthen walls will have long since vanished and the stones buried. You need to find these stones arrayed along the place where the kite wall was located.
And when not working they would go to a place where the stone was even easier to play with. There they would build more of the stones.
Play time.
When all the gazele had been killed then they would have gotten interested in wheat.
That's what we did when I was a kid. On my best day I could not keep up with the gazelle.
Edit:
What gives with this incessant resort to worship? People get together when it allows them to get more and better food - first and foremost. Three times each day this occurs to each of us. Every last one of us. We are mammals. Our energy requirements are huge.
Does every last one of us get the over riding desire three times a day to go worship something - while hungry?
Now here's a hypothesis. Do people say, "Damn god for not bringing me enough food." No. I have never heard god so mentioned. Nor have I ever heard of food coming in this way. Very occasionally I hear someone say, "G damn him." when speaking of another person, generally in absentia. So even our habits of speech today suggest we started invoking gods to help us manage the interpersonal relations forced upon us by our need for food among other things.
If you look at the early tracts from the Aramaic period that is indeed what religious texts focussed upon. When you have a problem with people you go out with god's permission, and stone them to death. While the texts became gentler, presumably due to the valiant efforts of a kind gentleman who lived around our year zero, even today you find worshippers concentrating their efforts on the people around them. Sharing various information and admonishing them as to how they may or may not live - with threats of dire and everlasting suffering at the hands of a loving god if they do not obey.
All of this is ready made for situations where a person is dependent upon their neighbors for sustenance, real items, and they are casting about for ways to make their neighbors appreciate the honors and rewards it is within my power to bestow upon them - if they behave.
Ready made.
Hard to deny this, or something very like it, is at work here.
I asked why the incessant resort to worship. The answer is obvious. Today our interpersonal relations with others are just as much a problem as they were when we needed help to corral some gazelle for dinner. Maybe even more so.
Find the stones outlining a kite where the river would have been near Gobekli and we may begin to make some sense out of how it all came about.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Thank you, jstan.
It is fascinating to find ancient arrangements of huge stones. After that the speculation begins. Surely folk of the time were doing many other things beside moving stones around but the traces are less obvious or lost completely.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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REPOSTED (On the news another thread might be nuked.)
Re: (1) Belief Upgrade Strategy (2) Belief Discipline Remodeling
To: Everyone interested in better practices in the "practice" of living (who isn't a supernaturalist) and everyone interested in general life guidance "modeling" (who is't a supernaturalist)
__
Until modernity gets around to building a modern spiritual belief discipline practice-- one based on the Scientific Story-- and until it gets around to institutionalizing it socially-- you must "take ownership" of your own spiritual belief discipline practice and work it out for yourself.
An organizing principle that worked for me: Develop your spiritual discipline on a basis of (1) "what is" in terms of facts, (2) "what matters" to the heart, (3) "what works" in terms of life strategies.
Lastly: Insofar as you can work this "lifesmart trinity" into a narrative-- a comprehensive overarching narrative that ties everything together-- in a way that works for you (regarding guidance, inspiration, support, etc.), the better.
Favorite passages from the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
"To know what you don't know is critical to successful solutions. Dealing with your ignorance in a conscious way leads to a keener awareness." (Koberg 3:8)
"What appears to be is not always what really is. Perception and reality differ." (Koberg 3:16)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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Ever notice that Jstan has all the letters of "Satan" in it?
Jstan
Satan
Santa
Beware of these dirtbags!
;-)
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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OMG! Verily, that is so, Karl.
Changing gears:
Does anyone at the Taco besides me distinguish between (a) the supernatural dimension and (b) the supernal dimension? Just curious. As I'm a "believer" in the supernal, just not the supernatural.
The "supernal" is everything of the Great Cosmos that is outside the realm, or realms, of human awareness or understanding.
The difference between the supernal and the supernatural is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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This may be a good time to mention the new design of cold shuts I am installing. When you see
them it will be apparent there is a 30% chance of failure. A large improvement over previous designs
having a 1% chance of failure.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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re: Supernal versus Supernatural
The distinction is important because religious supernaturalists like to say that the non-supernaturalists don't get it, that they don't understand there are things beyond the obvious, beyond the senses. Well, no duh. So having supernal (and supernalist) in your vocabulary helps distinguish the two different concepts in any discourse with them. Try it next time your out philosophizing over a pitcher of beer. It works.
The "supernal domain" includes all the unknown worlds of the Cosmos (e.g., the billions of planetary systems Carl Sagan spoke of) about which we know nothing.
EDIT Ha, the supernavel!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 27, 2010 - 08:34am PT
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2 Peter 3:1-9, This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:32am PT
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Jan and Jstan,
Here is an article I posted in another thread -- Favorite Bible Passages?
Has The Garden Of Eden Been Found?
Do 10,000 year old stone, buried for thousands of years, mark the location of Gan Eden?
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/03/has-the-garden-of-eden-been-found.html
This would be from a Judaic/Christian point of view.
Apparently, if the absolute dating that has been done is correct, then it is even older than the article mentions here that I have re-posted, according to the articles you have posted indicate.
Another:
Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden?
By Tom Knox
Last updated at 11:10 AM on 05th March 2009
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html#ixzz0gkLgqhuG
To me the evidence and the surrounding agricultural plain seem to fit the Genesis story of the Garden of Eden very well. I think they are onto something here. The casting out of the Garden, the lose of the Garden, and the dark history to follow also are in grim evidence at this incredible site.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:30am PT
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Klimmer-
Intriguing article and website I must say!
I hadn't associated the find with the Garden of Eden but I did note that it was on the plains of Harran where Abraham originated. The finding of human sacrifice and the story of Abraham and Isaac tie together nicely too.
It would certainly be interesting if eastern Turkey proved the Old Testament to be historically accurate even as western Turkey and the discovery of the city of Troy proved the Iliad to be accurate.
Personally, I think this will cause the Torah to appear even more as a historical account of the Jewish people alone, just as the Vedas are a historical account of the Indian people, rather than a general history of mankind or general creation account. This is fine from the secular point of view but probably not be so pleasing to those who try to apply it to all of human kind.
Then again, if the Old Testament came to be seen as the folk history of the Jewish people, that might free up Christians to focus less on Jesus as the Jewish messiah and more on the universality of his teachings. True paradigm changing discoveries seldom end up being what most people originally thought they would be.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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The propaganda of a dying institution-
"Science and traditional theism are compatible." Hogwash. This is hogwash. It's time we stopped buying into it. In the interest of being more informed citizens of a modern democracy. In the interest of better practices.
People who would use their authority (e.g., a policeman, teacher) to say to kids (either directly or indirectly) that science and traditional theism are compatible are spewing nonsense. Don't let them get away with it.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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