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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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Love can not be stolen, only given!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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So why are the thinkers on this thread giving this "grace by faith" poster so much attention? Geez. Shift gears. I'd like to continue to hang out on this thread but not if it's going to be so uni-dimensional, shallow, and tit for tat. Tit for tat with a guy who has the same theology (concepts about forces that rule our lives) that those living in the pre-scientific 1st century had.
Raise the level of discourse.
Food for thought: When traditional belief discipline practice (in the form of ol'time religions with their reliance on ancient theologies) gives way to modernity, what if anything might replace it? Do we even need a replacement? Of any kind?
Food for thought: Can we continue to make improvements to our "practice" of living (which I think is what we want, most of us) (a) without bringing some standards to bear on it; (b) without a new kind of leadership (new kind of institutional leadership) other than political leadership / governmental leadership?
Food for thought: Is governo-political leadership sufficient? (My opinion: Not!)
I repeat:
Is this thread capable of having a discourse that gets past responding tit-for-tat to an oldbook fundamentalist? We shall see.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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SOME parents believe the ONLY way to CONTROL their children is to tell
them fairy tales that have "punishments" for bad behavior.
And that is what most religion is: Telling little children to live by
that religion's "rules" or "god" will punish your little asses.
A LOT of those children grown up STILL believing that crap.
SOME children learned very early the guy in the sky was the same nonsense
as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy,and the Easter Bunny.
Those children grew up to be rational ADULTS. The others did not.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Gobee!
I also, like Jan, read all the way through your "long post" on the "Exclusiveness of the Gospels, Part I" and enjoyed it immensely. I am in full agreement with Dr. MacArthur's beliefs in the New Testament Gospels message. And Jesus teaching that the "gate is narrow and there are few that find it."
They don't find it because they think the gate is large "wide" and that many way's lead to God. But Jesus clearly said "The only way to the Father is through Me!"
To know about Jesus Christ, and to say that you don't need His forgiveness for your sins, that this world is not your fault, you didn't ask to come here etc. Or your good enough to get into heaven without Jesus...is to reject Jesus Christ as Lord.
Remember, Jesus said:
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!"
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But who ever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33.
Jan- "rejecting a concept of 'God's wider mercy' in favor of the narrow interpretation of a handful of people."
A handful of people including Jesus Christ?
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Mathew 7:13-14.
Jan, I would read again the Gospel of John and "think long and hard" in regards to what Jesus Himself says.
Thanks again Gobee for that great post. I am looking forward to Part II.
Trip~
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roadman
climber
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God is just a long standing joke set up by some guys who wanted to pull the best prank of all time!!!
For chirst sake GOD is DOG spelled backwards!!!
It was a joke people, and you've all be drooling over those papers they wrote back in the day as a comedy skit to entertain their friends and fear their kids into doing what they said....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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I think I am going to puke.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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"GOD is DOG spelled backwards!!!"
No matter how you spell it still man's best friend!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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There are five primary fear sources that explain the behavior of Creationists. They are:
1) Fear of evolution.
2) Fear and hatred toward gays/lesbians.
3) Fear of women.
4) Fear of death.
5) Fear of losing their all powerful father who will protect them from their fears.
See, I can dribble the same nonsense as Goby can!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Gobee and Triple7-
I am not going to argue religion with you. If there's one thing I know as a professional teacher, it's that students only learn if they want to and clearly you are completely vested in a particular interpretation that you learned a long time ago. This is a free country still, and you can believe anything that you want.
However, since the Bible repeatedly states that man's lack of humility is one of his greatest faults, I think you really need to examine how it is you are so intelligent that you know more than the best minds and hearts of a 2,000 year old tradition? Are you really more knowledgeable and pious and do you really live out your religion with more sincerity than your contemporaries Mac Arthur attacks - the Pope, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, and Robert Shuller? Or are you just a new kind of Pharisee? Is your motivation discovering truth or feeling exclusive and self righteous? Sin and idolatry like scriptural interpretation, can take place at many levels.
There are also multiple levels of meaning to everything that Jesus said. If you are content with choosing only those sayings that can be interpreted in a narrow way and then maintaining that is the only way (assuming he even said some of those things), that is your right. But do not think for a minute that is the only interpretation or that a handful of words is more important than a sense of the full teaching.
There are many levels of deeper meaning to the teachings of Jesus that you obviously know nothing about and are not interested in. If you are content with staying at that level fine, just don't try to insist that the rest of us get stuck there too.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Concerning a naturalistic religion.
When I first started working on my chakras, I discovered the program 911 about humans going to heroic efforts and even risking their lives for strangers. I also discovered that an hour of that program was more effective than any of the traditional methods for opening the heart center.
It seems to me that a large part of a naturalistic religion would need to focus on the good deeds of other humans as that program did in order to inspire people?
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MH2
climber
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from High Fructose Corn Spirit:
Sure, this thread here at the Taco is pretty irrelevant. But I thought the subject in broader perspective was about belief, God, theology, comparative religions, science and all that these contain. Subjects important to me. Subjects that require attn to greater detail in mixed company. -Which obviously the Taco and this thread are.
I don't know about you (much) but the news on current affairs these days indicates to me that we're spending trillions of dollars over culture wars much of which bases itself on conflicting theologies. It would be nice to able to talk about these with a common vocabulary, some precision, and without ambiguity of terms running wild.
Not irrelevant, just modest in results and consequences. I agree that trying to be clear and precise in language is important, but am saying that it is less important than having a good idea to begin with. In my experience people who think clearly speak clearly, too. Words are always ambiguous and we often need more than one way to say what we mean. However, I get the heebie-jeebies when a discussion turns into a discussion about how to have the discussion.
Here's an idea for an example.
Let's say you believe that God is real. We won't ask what God. We'd just like to ask how you would compare your knowledge of God to other things that the rest of us know, like the gravitational constant, the speed of light, the charge of an electron. The so-called physical constants aren't that well known, in the sense that we can only measure them to a few significant figures. No theory we have gives exact values although for the universe to work values a lot more precise than we can measure are probably necessary. So we aren't setting a terribly high bar for your God. In fact, if your God could give us the gravitational constant to a few more places it would be helpful and possibly useful in earthquake prediction since it might allow better mapping of subsurface density variations.
If that seems too difficult, perhaps just show us an effect caused by your God and let us make the measurement.
Now, you might only have an emotional sense about the existence and/or nature of God. If so, fine.
Nevertheless:
"If you can measure that of which you speak, and can express it by a number, you know something of your subject; but if you cannot measure it, your knowledge is meager and unsatisfactory."
Lord Kelvin
Not that I completely agree with that, either.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself."
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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All praise and honor to God the Father and glory to our Lord Jesus Christ the Son the eternal source of the spring of living water of everlasting life, Amen!
I'm a sinner in need of God's love, mercy, and forgiveness at the Cross of Christ as much as any one!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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And a mocha latte, hold the whipped cream, thanks.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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MH2- By and large, I agree with your last post.
trying to be clear and precise in language is important
We agree. That was the point I was trying to draw out earlier in the thread. Simple as that. Just as physicists find it useful to draw a distinction between electron, proton and neutron (atomic particles), animal lovers find it useful to draw a distinction between, say German Shepards, Catahoulas and Collies, people like me interested in (and learned in) a cross-section of belief disciplines find it useful to distinguish between different God concepts (e.g., Diacrates, Jehovah, Shiva).
Which atomic particle? Which dog type? Which God type?
Straightforward as that. Cheers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Consider a couple of modern conceptual God types: (1) Diacrates and (2) Hypercrates. My point... knowing about them (in addition to ancient Mesopotamian Gods) can lead to a reduction in argument, misunderstanding, miscommunication-- at least amongst those who have taken some (graduate level) belief discipline courses and who share in this common vocabulary and common understanding of these conceptual God types.
Take Einstein, the popular example to reference: He did not believe in the personal God of the Abrahamic religions (that is, God Jehovah, God of Moses). But he alluded to God as metaphor (God Hypercrates), he had no problem personifying the great forces that rule over living things. (Just as most modern Americans don't have any problem personifying death (the Grim Reaper) or personifying time (Father Time). Also, he speculated about a Diacrates (by definition a theoretical Intelligent First Cause of Everything). He "speculated" about a possible Diacrates. -Clearly a far cry from Jehovah (the God of Moses) by way of the latter's deeds laid out in the Abrahamic bibles.
So, to the people trained in these theo concepts, the distinctions are clear and they don't argue over definitions.
My great grandmother didn't know the difference between the different atomic particles. Or for that matter, the different pieces on a chess board. These didn't matter to her.
So, it's up to everyone to decide what matters to them. But my own life is richer, I feel, because I distinguish between different atomic particles, different dog and cat types, different chess pieces, and different god types.
I said earlier in the thread (1) I'm confident a new kind of belief discipline philosophy and practice (in school courses, too) is right around the corner for many cultures of the world-- thanks to our internet-driven info age. I said (2) it will support all that is sensible in religions and reject all that is absurd (the supernaturalist doctrines). I said (3) it will provide life guidance, spiritual development, life support, that you'll be able to trust (i.e., have "faith" in). I stand by it. Can't wait.
-So I'm also confident these new conceptual God types (when people bother to learn about them, maybe our children's children) will end a great deal of the uneducated bickering over "God."
These subjects ain't easy. But what really worthwhile to get past is?
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
Gandhi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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