Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 7561 - 7580 of total 28493 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:36am PT
Ed complains i only read that which reinforces my preconceived beliefs. So below i have links of both point and counterpoint.These have both been posted previously but refreshing them is not a bad thing.

http://iopscience.iop.org/2041-8205/742/2/l36/fulltext/apjl_742_2_l36.text.html

http://www.probeinternational.org/Livingston-penn-2010.pdf

And some news of the extremes of this last, unusually long lasting,winter.

http://sppiblog.org/news/russian-scientists-we-could-face-cooling-period-for-200-250-years

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 02:34am PT
These people that say that the warming has plateaued are stupid. You can't have accelerating polar melting without warming. The process is dynamic and feedbacks will skew what we think of as a stupid simple warming. It takes energy to melt ice, that's where some of the extra heat is going. Much of it is going into heating the oceans. Melting ice also cools the oceans - but once the ice is gone - look out. To expect the planet to just warm up without temporary feedbacks to cool it is stupid. So many of you skeptics don't get the most basic stuff. Consider the cooling effect (slowing the acceleration of warming) that aerosols in the northern hemisphere have, while the Southern Oceans continue to heat at a higher rate.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=polar-melting-is-accelera


This guy below plays heavily in Rick's last link above;

Climate Misinformer: Christopher Monckton

Christopher Monckton is a British consultant, policy adviser, writer, columnist, and hereditary peer. While not formally trained in science, Monckton is one of the most cited and widely published climate skeptics, having even been invited to testify to the U.S. Senate and Congress on several occasions.

For a comprehensive rebuttal of many of Christopher Monckton's arguments, check out this presentation by Professor John Abraham. http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/ Abraham has compiled many examples where Monckton misrepresents the very scientists whose work he cites. Check out this PDF of Monckton quotes versus the scientists who in their own words explain how Monckton misrepresents their research.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 02:46am PT
And some news of the extremes of this last, unusually long lasting,winter.


Perhaps it was long in some places on Earth, but here in NA, it was extremely short. Or haven't you heard about the drought?

I was talking to a fire chief from Wawona the other day. We're 2 months ahead of schedule on the fire season. They had to call off the burn along 41 due to the conditions being too dry.

Second drought year in a row here in Santa Cruz, the water table is suffering and salt water intrusion is gaining.

Unusually long lasting winter my butt.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 02:52am PT
But it snowed in Rick's backyard.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2013 - 02:52am PT
You know what I always tell the OLD people who are talking about weather?

"Go outside and look!"

BLA,BLA,BLA BRUCE. Ive lost respect for you too.

Go get'em Duck!

Quack Quack!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 02:53am PT
I guess my response would be that all the models have been incorrect.


I suppose you honestly believe this to be the truth.

Bluey, you are an electronics trouble-shooter. But try talking to a civil engineer in the central valley who job it is to plan for water runoff. You'll find they are now planning on systems to support larger runoff volumes due to the modeling that predicts the snow pack in the sierra to decline by 50% over the next decade or so.

Not less precip, mind you. Less snow pack. Ya dig?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2013 - 03:35am PT
Good job Kman, you told him!

There used to be ice all over the planet. Where is is now? You da?

Global warming has been happening for awhile!

Keep on fart'in!!

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jun 6, 2013 - 06:01am PT
Bluering
I think you miss my point. You have to feed a model data, but do you really know what that data is in the future? Based solely on past climates?

Really? It's speculation at best.

No. You miss the point of modeling. The point of science (and modeling) is to try to understand what is happening now and why, and how what is happening now determines what happens in the future. Is it exact? Is it 100% correct? No. But that's how science works. It builds off of new discoveries and it builds off of failed hypothesis when scientists have to go back and ask "why?".

Science, in it's most rudimentary form, is speculation (hypothesis) that is then tested. If that speculation doesn't then stand up to the tests it's dropped, tweaked, or changed and then tested again. If it doesn't work yet again it will either go through more changes or eventually dropped. If it does work it will probably bring more questions, more speculations/hypothesis and more tests and further understanding.

Your use of the word "speculation" here speaks more to your lack of understanding of the scientific method then it does your understanding of climate science.

Science is speculation, and once tested and verified is then able to be verified by others. If it's not, it doesn't meet the criteria.

Not that that matters for any that already have their minds made up.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 6, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Science is speculation, and once tested and verified is then able to be verified by others. If it's not, it doesn't meet the criteria.

Not that that matters for any that already have their minds made up.


If that isn't an OXYMORON of all statements on this thread. Like none of you here that are "Gotta save the world from Big Oil loving Fossil Fuel C02 spewing capitalistic Amerikans" DRF, ED, BRUCE, K-MAN, DIRTCLAUD etal are all unbiased and DO NOT have their minds already made up.

Oh the hypocrisy. The hypocrisy.

Like Werner states, "Both sides of the Fence".


BTW: NORTON, Michael Dunlop is kicking some serious ass! 4 for 4 and going strong. Guy Martin's Suzuki has failed him twice. John McGuiness's HRC rigs are not performing any where near Dunlop's Honda's. Senior TT tomorrow. Gonna be interesting to see what goes down.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/22800896
dirtbag

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 09:47am PT
Chief Running Mouth: completely and openly ignorant and proud of it...and too stooopid to realize ignorant people should probably just STFU.

He sure likes posting pics, so here's one for him:


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:44am PT
You know what I always tell the OLD people who are talking about weather?

"Go outside and look!"

BLA,BLA,BLA BRUCE. Ive lost respect for you too.

Go get'em Duck!

Quack Quack!

But Blueblocker, why exactly do i lose your respect? I merely want to determine the truth by putting the deniers on trial sort of like this:


Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

United States District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania
Argued September 26, 2005-November 4, 2005,
Decided December 20, 2005
Full case name: Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al.
Citations: 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005)
Holding

Teaching intelligent design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) because intelligent design is not science and "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents."
Court membership
John E. Jones III
Laws applied
U.S. Const. Amend. 1; Penn. Const. Art. I, 3

Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. (400 F. Supp. 2d 707, Docket no. 4cv2688) was the first direct challenge brought in the United States federal courts testing a public school district policy that required the teaching of intelligent design.[1] In October 2004 the Dover Area School District changed its biology teaching curriculum to require that intelligent design be presented as an alternative to evolution theory, and that Of Pandas and People was to be used as a reference book.[2] The plaintiffs successfully argued that intelligent design is a form of creationism, and that the school board policy violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The judge's decision sparked considerable response from both supporters and critics.

Eleven parents of students in Dover, York County, Pennsylvania, near the city of York, sued the Dover Area School District over the school board requirement that a statement presenting intelligent design as "an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view" was to be read aloud in ninth-grade science classes when evolution was taught.[3] The plaintiffs were represented by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) and Pepper Hamilton LLP. The National Center for Science Education (NCSE) acted as consultants for the plaintiffs. The defendants were represented by the Thomas More Law Center (TMLC). The Foundation for Thought and Ethics, publisher of Of Pandas and People, a textbook advocating intelligent design and whose prominence within the trial was such that it is sometimes referred to as the Dover Panda Trial,[4][5] tried to join the lawsuit late as a defendant but was denied for multiple reasons.[6]

The suit was brought in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania seeking declaratory and injunctive relief. Since it sought an equitable remedy, by the Seventh Amendment, right to a jury trial did not apply. It was tried in a bench trial from September 26, 2005 to November 4, 2005, before Judge John E. Jones III, a conservative Republican appointed in 2002 by George W. Bush.[7] On December 20, 2005, Jones issued his 139-page findings of fact and decision ruling that the Dover mandate requiring the statement to be read in class was unconstitutional. The ruling concluded that intelligent design is not science, and permanently barred the board from "maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID."[8] All eight of the Dover school board members who were up for re-election on November 8, 2005 were defeated by a set of challengers who opposed the teaching of intelligent design in a science class. (The ninth member was not up for re-election.) The school board president subsequently stated that the board did not intend to appeal the ruling.[9]


My whole point is that when they call witnesses forward I would not volunteer because as Braun said "I don't know shit" any more than Ron Anderson or yourself. Chuff wouldn't make it past security. Dr. Rick Sumner, eminent professor of climate deny-ology from the Institute of Palin Studies might make it to the stand but on cross examination he would soon find himself charged with perjury and fraudulent misrepresentation. Ed, being a pro and understanding ethics, would only provide evidence within his capabilities, which would result in Ricks destruction on the stand and likely conviction for fraud, along with Lord Bunkton. Fred Singer would have a little trouble explaining his past association with the tobacco Industry. A few thousand credentialed climate scientists will legitimately present the consensus science.

That leaves Roy Spencer who under close examination will reveal himself to have an agenda other than science.

The likely end result, which I admit a slight bias in endorsing perhaps a little prematurely, is this:

Allegations of perjury [edit]

After the trial, there were calls for the defendants accused of not presenting their case honestly to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. ... Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. ... Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behaviour as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed".[41]
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:12am PT
DIRTCLAUD:

Seriously dude. You need to stop publicly displaying how you were created. Bad enough that you are here. Showing your originators in the act seriously puts a damper on your "Herds" AGW/GCC agenda.

But then those of us that see through your ideological BS, expect nothing less. Nothing less. Keep up the good work DB. Excellent.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Zzzzzzz...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:45am PT
blublocker - For clarity I should add that I intend no malice or ill will on my part as I think our lord and savior would not view that kindly. For instance, upon sentencing, if it was up to me Rick would be allowed a nice little cabin to while away his remaining days on earth perhaps next to his friend Werner Braun. Huff an Chuff after removal from court property should be allowed to return to his little arid canyon . Much like that pre-eminent socialist progressive Jesus Christ I see no need for punitive injury any more than what is warranted for the social good.

In the absence of an actual court trial I suggest we continue along the line of this forum best exemplified by this discourse between Rick (on the right) and Ed ( on the left):



rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Bruce the picture you painted of our involvement in testimony before congress is hilarious. Oh, if only we could, what a three ring circus that would be.

So Ed, they assign no value for the ever present aerosols of continuing volcanic eruptions, which range from very low activity to species killing events-that is a major deficiency. Another is that although they have input all known values of forcing, positive and negative feedbacks, they have input solar forcing variability largely upon that we have grown accustomed to over the last century-that is a problem since we have exited a grand maximum and may well be entering a grand minumum of larger, longer, chaotic (as far as they can determine at this point) solar variability. Another problem is the inattention that has paid to the effects of individual spectra and instead simplistically giving only a value known as total solar irradiance. Much more work must be done on atmospheric chemistry. Another problem is variation of incoming CR flux and variability of earths final line of defense-variability of geo magnetic strength. I could go on and on and on about all the unknown or misquantified values entered into the models. Really though, the departure from real world observation of the models predictives should be enough for anyone half informed to realize the basic premise of CAGW is invalid and all effort should be towards identifying, understanding and valuing the agents of change that have been missed.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Assuming Science can come up with a solution, how do they get people to go along with it, especially if the proposed solution costs money?

The climate challenge may indeed be scientifically solveable. The political hurdle will be your big crux, especially if you need people worldwide onboard to make it work.

I'd be interested to hear how people are to be persuaded into doing things they otherwise wouldn't do.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Zzzzzzz...

Precisely. Fits this entire thread and agenda.


I'd be interested to hear how people are to be persuaded into doing things they otherwise wouldn't do.

If it was up to DRF and others here, the "Gov't" will take over and strong arm everyone. This all of course bordering on "communism" at best. The people will be required to follow the law/s or else. They will be mandated to do so for their own good.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Agreed Chaz but wouldn't you also agree that the policy should be informed by the best science?

To continue to pretend that the best science is neither availalable or reliable suggests that at least some of us have no interest in informed policy at all.

Wonder who that would be?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Chaz brings up an excellent point!

IF money will be needed obviously some sort of future, gasp, TAX

likely a small increase in federal withholding from paychecks

probably not in our lifetime as government tends to act only when crisis is accute

so me and the Chief's social security checks are safe for now
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
It's not up to Ed to voluntarily research every kook question,
especially when people like Rick troll him and then ignore the answer.

"This is a good start for the research direction after final abandonment of climate modeling based on the false premise of overwhelming anthropogenic forcing. This day will be relatively near in the future, surely in 4 years or less."

What is certain is that in 4 years the denialists will still be looking behind every faux door for excuses, fake science, and charismatic liars.
Messages 7561 - 7580 of total 28493 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews