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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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Ok Splater came up with a workable micro solution-good. Ed is spouting the party line-conservation and skyrocketing economy killing energy costs increases to one day get people used to abject poverty and lack of mobility. Great, if you want carbon taxes their is nothing preventing you from doing the calculations of your usage and cutting the state and Fed a check each year. But please, make it painful. And no more venturing forth into the mountains either. It is just not "sustainable".
Ron, Chief and others- i'm sure you guys are aware that Obama wants to fund additional CC research for FY2014 to the tune of 2.7 billion dollars. That will make the CC industrial complex happy.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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Did I say all that?
A carbon tax is a good way to get the companies and people that release CO2 to pay for it and it makes alternatives better alternativs.
But it is like always ridicilous to read and answer yours and your 2-3 friends on this threads posts because you show your ignorance and lack of knowledge in most of your posts.
There are a lot of research about alternative energy sources going on all over the world and same are at the moment quite good alternatives like on shore wind energy. Other like off shore wind energy need some more years before it is a real alternative.
The main problem is though that the energy is a little more expensive than already working power plants that burn for example coal and because money is everything it is thus not built enough. A carbon tax would result in a more even market.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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These technologies are not ready for prime time. So what is the realistic alternative guys?
I know! Let's do nothing until oil runs out, then we can scramble for a solution!
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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SO how does "paying" for it, reduce it?
Two ways. A higher price product (electricity, gas, etc) might result in less use of the product. For example people driving less or change to a car with a better milage.
A higher price for a "dirty" product makes the alternatives relatively cheaper.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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There is that prevailing verbiage. MIGHT!
Ok, I guess that we should do nothing unless 100% of the people is 100% certain that something is true.
Not currently happening.
Do you understand that I wrote something that are completely true?
FF Energy cost have gone up substantially the past ten years. Alternatives are even higher and have increased as well. Your logic has yet to happen the past ten years.
What are you talking about? Wind energy is for example a relatively cheaper alternativ than burning oil if the oil price increase. That is obvious.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
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Chief, perhaps you missed the purple line. Look closely. The Law Dome ice core gives us CO2 data from 1006ad to 1978.
The Law Dome data dovetails nicely with Vostok and Mauna Loa.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Thanks for the link I didn't know about that article.
The rest is the same old the chief "logic"
"Then why has the EU thrown that option out the door due to their piss poor performance."
A non answer to what I said and a sentence that has nothing to do with your link. In what why have EU thrown that option out of the door and where can I find that information in your link?
I doubt that you know it but there is actually quite a lot of wind energy in Europe today with I believe Germany, Spain and Denmark in the top. I am not sure how far the UK projects are on the way but they have made decision of building many very large of shore wind farms.
Do you just make up thing when you write? (rethorical question of course)
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
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Ron, you claim that you know a lot about bears, owls and trees so I guess that you also know a lot about birds. Cant you find some information about birds death from for example power lines and high rise buildings and compare those numbers with bird deaths from wind turbines?
You know using numbers and actual information instead of pictures?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 27, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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According to Anderson logic, the birds will evolve and 'party' in other areas, just like da polar bears will 'party' with da brown bears when their ice is gone.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
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Major difference being we WONT put up large windmills whose blades nearly reach the ground to chop them bears to pieces...
But that is the chiefs logic. Polute as much as you like, the result doesn't matter. Try to get rid of some polution and the bad results are very very important.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
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But Ron, all our energy sources interacts with the nature in often bad ways. Coal polute the air and release co2, hydro power destroyes rivers and river valleys, nuclear results in nuclear waste and bad conditions in the mines, etc.
It is just stupid to critize on method for power production when all are bad in some way without comparing them to each other.
As I said before. This thread really need some new deniers. The level of those we have are just to low.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 27, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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So many tangential posts that fail to see potential improvements.
I and others have already listed lots of ways to reduce GHGs and am not going to repeat. You can easily look these up or your own research.
Diesel is priced according to supply and demand. It has far more energy content than gasoline so is worth more if enough engines use it.
Failure rates are not a huge problem and will fall on the investors. These power sources are still evolving and continuing to improve.
Nuclear and coal and tar sands have never solved their problems, which costs all of us.
In my opinion, carbon Tax would be mostly be offset by a reduction in income taxes, so it is revenue neutral. A couple billion in funding green energy is nothing. The cost of auto fuel in this country should be around what it is in Europe, to recover all the numerous external costs.
The USA has spent about the equivalent of $10 trillion dollars over the past 50 years on added defense/security/war costs due to chasing foreign oil, not counting the cost of the oil itself.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
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Wow, that bird issue sounds serious! Until you look at the numbers...
But Rong is right... wind is horrible... stick with fossil fuels...
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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Splater has a valid point in the costs of wars to secure our fossil fuel energy needs. I think hes wrong though on the carbon tax reducing income taxes-government is insatiable in their revenue collection and wasteful spending. Alternative energy has a ways to go to be effective, particularly because of their nonconstant generation a viable storage system is crucial. The 2.7 billion dollars Obama has earmarked for fiscal 2014 climate studies would be much better spent in R&D on alternative energy storage. You guys citing low numbers for fossil fuel availability are behind the times. With the new technologies we currently have in excess of a 100 year supply for all U.S. consumption right here within our borders.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
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So you are claiming wind turbines kill more birds than buildings or cats or pesticides?
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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Chief you posted a "good example" Diesel costs less to refine and produce but is MORE expensive to purchase---WHY??? I think the answer lies in WHO is in control of the commodity----BIG OIL!!!!
Also it isn't the last 20 or 30 years but in the last 40 FORTY 40 years!!!The technology has been suppressed...
I want to know what your solution is to getting rid of the powers that be that are holding us hostage to a Fossil Fuel dominated energy supply??
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
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But that pig still looks better than that Exxon cawk you right wing anti-everythings keep lodged up your a*#.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 27, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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So, what is your solution Ron? You DENY there is even a problem? Genius... if by genius one means moranic.
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