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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
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Actually Ron, the Neanderthal died out around 30,000 years ago. Try again.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 14, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas.
We humans are adding lots of CO2 to the atmosphere.
About 5.5 billion tons of carbon per year from fossil fuels:
http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Water/co2_cycle.html
This is ongoing. No sign of us slowing down. The concentration of CO2 is 30 per cent higher than 150 years ago.
Therefore, we are warming the atmosphere.
Okay, since we accept that this is true, what do we do?
This is where the debate becomes poisonous.
Because in a world of 7 billion people, individual actions, by those of us wealthy enough to even be able to make environmentally conscious decisions will not be remotely enough to offset all that CO2.
The only effective remedies to all this CO2 require action by government-sized entities: either governments, treaties/agreements between governments, multi-national corporations:
1. Cutting use of fossil fuel, big time, or
2. Sequestering CO2.
Eventually we will likely do some of both and luckily it seems that existing models have been overly pessimistic. So we have some time to improve the models and ponder potential appropriate measures.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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Everything I've read says there was a very small bit of interbreeding contributing a percent or two to our genome--that species is gone. There are no Neanderthals
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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HOW ELSE do you explain guys like Dennis Rodman Dirt!;-)
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jun 14, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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When those brownies got trapped by that ice earlier, they decided to go white to blend in and became "polar bears". They can certainly do the reverse in any time frame given.
Lamarkian logic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
Organisms evolve because the environment tends to eliminate species that can't adapt to the changes. Brown bears didn't "decide" to acquire the characteristics that make polar bears successful; only the strain (subspecies) that could survive passed on the successful genes.
Unfortunately Man evolved intelligence and can now create tools to allow us to live beyond what nature can support. So we go on trashing our environment until we tip the scales hard over to the point where we can't "fix" it. Game over. Cockroaches & bacteria win.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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Ron I think my suggestion is plausible too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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well rick, you have stated something as fact that is absurd, that CO2 concentrations rise after the temperatures increase...
I suspect that you would rather not look at that assertion in a critical way, it seems to form the current foundation in your skepticism, which also appears to lack any scientific basis.
However, ...
Great post Ed, in it's entirety. I especially like the part about moving on to our actions in response to the knowledge that we do indeed have a human-caused problem.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 14, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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Ed will never admit he may be wrong, or his thesis is flawed.
100% utter bullsh#t.
Excellent suggestions regarding driving Ron. I declined two jobs in the last 4 months because of the commute. The problem is, people won't start making the change until they have to... which in this society means market pressure... i.e. until we start paying the ACTUAL cost of fossil fuels AT THE PUMP. We The People need to stop giving oil companies $10's billions in subsidies.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 14, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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Mine rSin?
Working on publication... something I will be doing for many hours at $0/hr in order to make it easily accessible to the scientific community. PM me and I would be happy to email you a copy in a couple months.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
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I believe that all* climate scientists agree that the rise of CO2 level is due to human activity and I am sure that you manage to use google to find the evidence and arguments for that claim.
*with all I mean also scientist like Spencer, Christy, Lindzen, Svensmark, etc that are to some extent skeptical to the standard version of climate change but I am sure that there are some scientist that disagree and of course a lot of laymen that writes on the internet.
But really, it is obvious that the CO2 level have risen and continue to rise above the maximum level that has been achieved during the last cycles of warming and glaciations. So how likely is it that this happens due to some natural (non human) causes exactly at the time that humans have released a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jun 14, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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So Ron- when are you going to start being the "nipple sucking liberal" you advertise?
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 14, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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So how likely is it that this happens due to some natural (non human) causes exactly at the time that humans have released a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere?
Keep in mind, that natural (non human) cause would also need to have the same stable isotopic signature as burning fossil fuels.
It is far more likely that Ron is a beastophile posing as a taxidermist than the increase in atmospheric CO2 is from a non human source. Or that the Chaff's navel experience had more to do with the village people than the armed forces. Or that blurring really is THAT dumb.
I know, I know... it is still possible... but very, very unlikely.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 14, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
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We all know that with the many surface tests of atomic weapons from the 1940's to 1970's the isotopic signature records were screwed from then on Dr. Christ.
Bruce- it is Wasilla- a single s. The place is shaping up, all the liberals who have survived the recent winters were voted out of office. So the policy side is now ok, but the outside rabid enviro NGO's continue to file lawsuit after lawsuit trying to impede progress. Fortunately their are still a few judges out their that haven't had their minds fried by CAGW and the greater rabid enviro ,socialist progressive, human hating movement.
Ed you know as well as i that far more CO2 is liberated from the sinks by increased surface temps than mans measly contribution, you also know that the mythical molecule does not perform as a blackbody or we wouldn't be here arguing this.Yes, every one agrees that there is an anthropogenic ingredient to this stupid term "global warming" (which has not been global
in extant during this age), but the hystericals will never have a consensus in the scientific world because they are quite obviously wrong in the degree of increase they model.
K-man, our government, and indeed most world governments, are grossly corrupt, incompetent, and wasteful.
I noticed somebody posted a scientists refutation of Lu's paper on CFC's that stated he made the mistake of assuming correlation=causation, well here is a little something about CO2-global warming correlation.
http://www.co2science.org/about/position/globalwarming.php
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Or are you just another one of them typical folks out there that is waiting for the Gov't to fix it.
@ The Chief: Maybe it's beyond your ability to understand, but governments are the entities that create energy policy for the citizens of their respective countries.
Because of this, you must address the governments if you want to address energy policy.
Perhaps you live off the grid, The Chief. However, the vast majority of the folks in this world live on the grid and use the electric energy supplied through their country's electric grid.
Likewise, if you use fossil fuel for transportation, then you must address that industry through the gov't (see above for why). To attempt to change the way energy is used and produced on a large scale, you cannot go anywhere else but to the governments. Got it?
However, if you want to think you can effect large-scale change by stopping your consumption of beans (and subsequently, reduce the blowing of hot air), then by all means continue on your quest.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 15, 2013 - 12:13am PT
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We all know that with the many surface tests of atomic weapons from the 1940's to 1970's the isotopic signature records were screwed from then on Dr. Christ.
You know less about isotopes than I know about the Navy. It is impossible to discuss any subject with people who refuse to learn the basics of the subject being discussed. You know nothing about stable isotope chemistry. Educate yourself or STFU.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 15, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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Well excuse me Christ, i misread and didn't see the "stable" in your stable isotopes.
Yes Ron that's the one. I couldn't access the whole paper, though the abstract seemed pretty clear. It would take the whole piece and data for the purpose of refutation. But with these guys,here and in the CAGW community, source alone is purpose for exclusion.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 15, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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Yeah Chief, there buffoonery is well recognized by all but the most hard core of believers. It won't be long now. Their will be quite a need for post partum self abortion prevention hot lines. Hey Bruce-it looks like if you adapt you could have a bright future in the counciling biz.
I had a good day paddling the kayak with the wife on Rye Patch, Ron. Temps out there were in the 60's.
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