Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
ED:

Maybe you should read the entire HISTORY of this particular sea lane in your own story:

What is new in the Novatek project is an oil industry business plan that relies explicitly on the Northeast Passage. Though Russian ships have moved goods along the country’s sprawling Arctic coastline for more than a century, and the route was opened to international shipping in 1991, it became apparent only recently that climate change would make the trip profitable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/business/energy-environment/polar-thaw-opens-shortcut-for-russian-natural-gas.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0



Like I said ED, this is nothing NEW! Please cease pulling shet outta your ass and proliferating BS propaganda to further your scam agenda.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jul 29, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Or, sticking with an Alaska theme, this from BBC within the past hour:

The Alaskan village set to disappear underwater in a decade

Almost no one in America has heard of the Alaskan village of Kivalina. It clings to a narrow spit of sand on the edge of the Bering Sea, far too small to feature on maps of Alaska, never mind the United States.

Which is perhaps just as well, because within a decade Kivalina is likely to be underwater. Gone, forever. Remembered - if at all - as the birthplace of America's first climate change refugees.

Four hundred indigenous Inuit people currently live in Kivalina's collection of single-storey cabins. Their livelihoods depend on hunting and fishing.

The sea has sustained them for countless generations but in the last two decades the dramatic retreat of the Arctic ice has left them desperately vulnerable to coastal erosion. No longer does thick ice protect their shoreline from the destructive power of autumn and winter storms. Kivalina's spit of sand has been dramatically narrowed.




There's more, it's a good balanced story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23346370
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
ED:

Again, from the story you posted. The last couple of sentences:
The company intends to open the Arctic plant by 2016. It has already asked for bids for two ice-hardened tankers, which should be able to navigate the sea lanes toward China seven months a year and the routes to the west year round.


He said that because of engineering tolerances built into the ship designs, “even if the climate turns toward cooling, and the ice thickens, we will make money.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/business/energy-environment/polar-thaw-opens-shortcut-for-russian-natural-gas.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0



The rest of story. It has to do with modern engineering & technology and not all GCC. So cease the BS!
dirtbag

climber
Jul 29, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^



The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^








DRFRY:
Downtown LA is over probably over 800 ppm
There are times when you can feel the green house effect, it is observable at the macro level in many areas now.


Of course you can. Living smack dab in the middle of shetcesspool metropolis of SOCAL. And you drive your Tacoma daily along with the other 3.6plus million vehicles that take to all them city freeways, daily. Hypocrite DRFRY.

More BS propaganda proliferation from the King BSUTOPIAman.DRFRY.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
They were surely writing about the billions that can now be made on the Natural Gas Market in their region.

But as you so well do ED, you chicken picked the verbiage that looked good for your agenda.


Allow me to reiterate the key paragraph of your posted story:

What is new in the Novatek project is an oil industry business plan that relies explicitly on the Northeast Passage. Though Russian ships have moved goods along the country’s sprawling Arctic coastline for more than a century, and the route was opened to international shipping in 1991
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/business/energy-environment/polar-thaw-opens-shortcut-for-russian-natural-gas.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
It's no secret that the area of the Barent Sea offshore Norway and Russia has been increasingly ice free for at least a decade Ed. So what? That is not the Arctic any where near its entirety. With the cooling phase we are entering both Russia and Norway (territorial dispute solved and mutual cooperation contracts signed)may well thank the orthodox god's for Russias nuclear ice breaker fleet in coming decades. The production facilities may be located subsurface thereby alleviating problems due to ice flows.A little Polar melt in the immediate past and into an uncertain future is a good thing for this industry that has sustained our civilization for the last 100 plus years. Wind farms, solar farms, and taxing the public into serfdom not.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Hey look CHILOE, it's CC in action:




NOT! This is a daily common occurrence that happens throughout the world in open waters. It is called a tide.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^



monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
The Chief was unable to comprehend:
No longer does thick ice protect their shoreline from the destructive power of autumn and winter storms. Kivalina's spit of sand has been dramatically narrowed.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
You Mono can't comprehend that the "thick ice" was not ALWAYS there. This is nothing NEW.

It isn't call Climate CHANGE for nothing.

Climate CHANGE happens on Planet Earth. Has done so for billions of years. Remember that we live in a dynamic system OUT here. Not in an INDOOR GYM where you can control the lighting and temps to suite your whims and desires.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 29, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Sure, lets cause climate change and put us back to climates millions of years ago.

Are you claiming that the disappearing arctic ice is not a result of man caused warming?

Bogus paleo temp chart from the Chief coming soon.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 29, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Hey Rick - getting back to mirrors for a second.... I take it that you agree that introspection and humility are valuable qualities for keeping the ego in check and assuring that a individual perspective is validated and tested against other perspectives and evidence. Yes?

I doubt an overabundance of the same would be useful in forming an independent informed opinion, but I'm sure you'll agree that there is no risk of that here. The opposite - an absence of introspection and humility - seems like the greater risk. Wouldn't you agree? There is no shortage of assertiveness here. Assertiveness minus the moderating rationalization of humility is not just beligerantly anti social bordering on bullying but it is the crucial ingredient for institutional bigotry and intransigent dogma enforced with will over reason.

I'm sure you would also agree that such a characteristic is morally abhorrent and is anathema to any kind of civil debate.

I suspect you think that some of us proponents of AGW theory stray occasionally into this "vile" territory as you have said as much. I think I could logically dispute that but what really interests me is this: If you were to cast your suspicion a bit further than a select few, can you think of anyone else who may be guilty of this?

Chuff for instance.

Do you think he provides evidence of humility and introspection to any discernible degree, without which one can only be accurately labeled an entrenched ideologue?

More than once someone has mentioned that this thread is nothing but a merry go round, which is largely true. That is because of the existence of factors that are off limits for discussion. The only elements of this debate that remain largely unexamined are the psychological forces that drive belief. I mean if it was pure logic, reason and evidence there would be no significant debate at all, at least as far as the natural sciences go. Problem is you deniers are too chicken sh#t to go there, other than to dismiss it as more elitist bafflegab.

What we have here is a fantastic specimen (Chuff) representing the most basic psychological drivers of denialism and he coughs up more evidence for it than even Sigmund freud would know what to do with.

But then come to think of it Rick, you produce a fair bit yourself, so maybe your the wrong guy to ask!

How about you Ron - wanna go there?



abrams

Sport climber
Jul 29, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Kivalina. Why would they be living there?
On a shizzy sandbar! No boulders. No mountains to climb.
Surfing looks to suck also. Not our sort of dudes.

Maybe they'll develop some tech to stop the erosion that
can be transfered to help other gamblers that also built
their homes on quicksand.


The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:21am PT
ED:
ship it via an uncertain route?

Can't be all that uncertain if they have been utilizing it for over a century now. Hmm.


ED:

Amazing how unlike you and your croanies of insistent AGW Fatalistic whining, these individuals have taken the lead and adapted to the changes in their environment and are now going to capitalize on it. Maybe you all need to look closer at this example of perseverance and adaptation to over come what has been occurring on planet earth for billions of years... CHANGE. 30 plus years of crying AGW and you have nothing to show for it. Twenty or so years of implementing ingenuity and they will have a very lucrative and productive operation in place that will benefit their fellow human beings with clean burning fuel. Nat Gas.

But no. You all would rather stay in the problem and keep whining about what "may" happen in a hundred years or so. Then call it higher education. Nice.


Kivalina. Why would they be living there?

Odd that you say that. I counted a total of 68 wooden/sheet metal buildings in less than square mile or so in that photo. Please someone tell me how 400 something people live in 68 building on a tip of a peninsula. Or why one would want to remain in such a vulnerable location knowing that shet weather and storm surges are going to take it all away very soon. Time to do as their ancestors did many times in the past, pack up their shet and migrate to better hunting grounds for the preservation of the tribe. Seems modern PhD mentality has taken that option away from their traditional survival past.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:48am PT
So all that Chinese fly ash fallout onto the Arctic ocean has darkened it
and caused it to melt again, without any rise in temperature? Darn it!

Thank physics that most of the sunlight still gets reflected back into space from open water when the Sun is only a few degrees above the horizon. Also
the increased cloud cover may actually cause cooler the Arctic summers.



"the relationship between changes in sea ice and clouds, using satellite-derived sea ice concentration and cloud cover over the period 2000–2010. Results show that a 1% decrease in sea ice concentration leads to a 0.36–0.47% increase in cloud cover, suggesting that a further decline in sea ice cover will result in an even cloudier Arctic."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012GL051251/abstract
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:56am PT
This is Nature's true don't give a fly ratsass "Skeptic". It has been around for millions of years and adapts to changes in it's environment rather perfectly. The common human AGW Skeptic pretty much fits the mold and M.O.

Take heed AGW Utopians.


dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:00am PT
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^



Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Whadufuk is ^^^ dat sh#t? Are you, like, 12?

Edit: @ Chump. Whadamaroon.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:07am PT
^^^ For once I agree JEEZCAKEBOMZBOY. Dirtbag does show her level of intelligence quite often. Nice. Too bad that in reality that is her on the bottom and her mate on top. Funny thing is, the dude on top must be you. Ha. Now who's the moron. JEEZCAKEBOMZBOY.
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