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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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Pedge: Steelmnky said it great:
"There's another way to think about it... Erik and Dave are maybe within a couple months of wrestling the Sedona info to the ground so it can be put together into a book and everyone steps in and basically says "Hey guys, why don't you get in your car and head out to EVERY location in the guide, hike on into the place again and get GPS coordinates for us."
It's not so much about ingratitude as about maybe understanding. Your earlier post seems to show a distinct lack of understanding of what this guy has put into this project. And that does sound ungrateful.
It appears that MisterE is getting the basics really right. Extras? Well, maybe they'd be nice and maybe he's giving all the time and energy he has.
Although I don't use it, I think GPS is useful, and that it can be extremely helpful (I'm putting GPS into the being-assembled Sonora Pass Highway Second Edition). And you've given great specifc reasons why it would be helpful in that area. But this late in the process its probably a totally, utterly unrealistic suggestion.
So, you've got a nice idea. Why don't you start a public data base for that area's GPS? You don't even have to "get in your car and head out to EVERY location in the guide, hike on into the place again and get GPS coordinates," but instead just put in data on an ongoing basis. Others could contribute too.
Help the guy with his seemingly stellar effort, make it better. Instead of saying what it lacks.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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mtnyoung said:
"It's not so much about ingratitude as about maybe understanding."
Absolutely. Not declaring anyone offensive here, just tossing out my own experience with this sort of deal.
As an aside, I've debated collecting GPS info and putting it in guides I've done, but in the end, I have a hard time seeing that info as all that useful (I could be wrong, but I can't see ever personally using a GPS to navigate to a crag I'm trying to get to). The maps should be more than enough to get people to the right crags without too much fanfare.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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My son has a GPS I can borrow, but usually I don't want to carry the extra weight.
Here are 2 examples where I have heard a GPS was useful:
1. Rich Goldstone used a GPS to find his way back to the car, on the flat/bushy desert floor in the dark after doing a climb at Red Rocks.
2. Somebody did the hike to Snake Dike, but was unsure exactly where the climb started. They saw many people hiking up the slope below, and needed to find it and get started right away! So they punched in the GPS coordinates from the supertopo guide. Bingo, right to the start.
A GPS could be useful for navigating a maze of logging roads, maybe in Southern Yosemite?
It could also be useful in the Pickets, to locate key points, like the place to cross the Barrier, or exactly where the trail starts for Access Creek. But it may be against the traditional navigation challenge to use a GPS there.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Porn, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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The Brins Mesa map I posted here is a good example of what Greg said - you want to look down the trail to where you are going, not where North is. This is true of a lot of Sedona Climbing. The directions are "vaguely southeast", because the washes wander a lot around hills, traversing sandstone formations, etc. The concern here is more with visual references.
I could totally see way-pointing difficult approaches, but that will have to wait for another edition. I don't even have a GPS.
This guidebook is the first comprehensive update in over 20 years, so we have had a long road.
Thanks for the props. It's going to be a really good guide - I can feel it.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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The shortest distance between two points in rough country is rarely a straight line, making GPS navigation a challenge.
If there 101, will one feature a Dalmatian?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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I don't feel north pointing to the top of the book is that important. Does the map make sense when you are standing at the parking lot looking for the climb. That's what you want. You can always turn the book the right way if you want to orient the map.
One question - do the maps have a scale? D'oh!
The real trick in making a map that works for people is being able to take a step back and look at the map from a noobs point of view. If you are overly familiar with the area (which you are since you are the author) you have to realize what might make perfect sense to you is totally confusing to someone who is visiting the area for the first time.
Squeezing the Lemmon is a pretty good example of that. It makes sense after you are familiar with the various places but it's agrivating the first time you go to an area. And that's one book where scale really would help.
Oh... and don't forget to include magnetic declination! :-P
I appreciate their work very much. I better... some of it was mine!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Doug,
The map does have a reasonable scale of sorts - the "time" scale in its text. I do appreciate a map which is "to scale", i.e. longer on the map means longer distance on the ground.
-
This might work as a compromise - in normal "book" orientation, but with North on a major axis.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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The real trick too is thinking and trying hard. I prefer north at the top, but the maps I make don't always have it straight up either (for various reasons). I see a thought out alternative here in orienting the map to the direction the user will be hiking.
Even though I've never used it, I'm putting GPS in the Sonora Pass book for two reasons: 1. Here the climbing crags are spread over an areas of 60 miles by 10 or so miles and GPS used in conjunction with Google maps, or other programs, or just used to confirm that you're close might be helpful (perhaps that could be true in Sedona too?), and, critically, 2. Because we got to it at the start of the (second edition) project, and we won't have to go back and get big amounts of data for an almost finished book.
But GPS doesn't seem like basic stuff, an item without which the book would be deficient.
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Chinchen
climber
Flagstaff?
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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You rule Erik!
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BlackGeorge
Social climber
Utah
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Aug 27, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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Soooooooooooo
How much are these new guides going to cost??
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Bump.
When, already?!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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When can Larry buy me one?
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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We are shooting for November/December. Cost will be probably $30-$34 depending on guide size and pages. Going to Boltgrl for conversion next week!
Thanks for the input again, Don. I really like the way you mix up your guides, we are really shooting for that balance, as well.
And, Doug: Skip has never been to most of these areas and is helping me A LOT with the guide, so she's got that "Noob Eye for the Guide Guy". Plus, she is a strong critic of some guidebooks, so I get the benefit of that as well. Heh.
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Maybe not, Jay, at those prices.
Shared custody, perhaps?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Another instance of GPS utility for Clint's List: Finding the right spot at the top for climbs that are rapped into from above. Many cliff tops lack the kinds of distinguishing features that would make it possible to describe such locations.
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kole
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:27am PT
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Man, I wish I had that map a few years ago. I remember heading left for Tomahawk where it sais "hill". There's some bad plants on the back side of that hill.
About the whole North is up controversy, something looks a little funny about the north arrow. Unless I'm really disoriented (which wouldn't be the first time), doesn't that map make it look like you're hiking south on Brins Mesa Trail? I just checked google earth to jog my memory and I think the trail goes basically east, with a little drift to the south. I think the road is going north there.
I say keep the orientation like it is, that map would get me right there. But fix the north arrow if you agree that it's wrong.
I can't wait for the guide! I'm living now where the rocks don't crumble, and they're all a boring shade of grey. And I just had a baby so even those rocks seem unreachable. I really need some good reading to bring me back to those happy Sedona days!
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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Update bump: David and I are psyched to review the rough draft of the new Sedona Climbers Guidebook between Christmas and New Years! Shouldn't be too long after that until the release date!
Thanks for your work, Boltgrl! You rock!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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What am I missing here? There must be some sort of computer glitch or sandbag...the "before" and "after" photos that I am seeing appear to be identical! Granted, I have not been staring at it much longer than a few minutes...but the only difference I can see on my computer is one additional line below where it says "Seasonal Pools/Slickrock", below the trees. What the heck?
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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The difference between the before and after? 6-7 hours of photoshop.
Maybe I have a more discerning eye, or maybe just zooming in too much on my fixes.
All will be revealed soon, foolish or not.
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