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BlackGeorge
Social climber
Utah
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Aug 25, 2009 - 09:35am PT
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Bad. Maps that are not oriented correctly and hopefully Bloom/Wolfe will not make the same mistakes as Castles in the sand: backward photos, wrong FA info, and poor directions.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 25, 2009 - 10:36am PT
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Very impressive work. Your hand drawings look informal, but crisp. I especially like the photo-overlay introduction pages. Seems that you've got tremendous love and passion for this place. Inspires me to wish for a few extra lifetimes - so much to explore, not enough years. I think I'll buy a copy whether I'll get there ever or not.
Thanks.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Porn, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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Thanks for the props.
I should note that, because of the length of the approaches on many maps, we would have to shrink them down as to be almost illegible to "orient them correctly" on a 6" X 9" page.
So we oriented them to fit on the page.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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I really love this shyt!
Jay-haveclimbedinsedonainaugust-bro
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 25, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Thought I might throw out some of the keeper area cover pages again
The font on the area pages is pretty Windham Hill for my taste. But that's probably appropriate for Sedona and the power vector tours and all.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Aug 25, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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I know its controversial for Sedona, but what about GPS coordinates? Not that I don't love getting all scratched up thrutching through the bush as much as anyone, but for the partners with nice legs, so they don't have to wear old baggie ugly pants every time we go out to find a new area (new to us).
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 25, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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The guy's working his ass off trying to finish the book. And we want more content, more specifics, more of his time and sweat. I have a respectful suggestion. Let's let him finish it; finish hours and hours of thankless labor. Yeah, I know, its not all thankless, I bet he's enjoyed the work and the product that is resulting, but maybe let's help a little instead of nitpicking.
You want GPS coordinates? Great idea, that could be very helpful. So go get them yourself and post them for public benefit.
Sorry to sound snotty, but no-one posting here seems to be thankful for all the work this guy is putting in for the benifit of the climbing public (and we don't really think the guy is going to make money on this do we - is anyone here that naive?).
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Aug 25, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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I am very appreciative of E's work. Thank you thank you thank you.
Now, about profits...... E?
those topos better work.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 25, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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Much respect to the man who opts for timeless hand-drawn topos.
Your keeping the spirit alive my friend!
I'll buy one
Mucci
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 25, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Also timeless is well done sarcasm. Nice, Mike.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Porn, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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OMFG! I am rolling over here - thanks Mike.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Aug 25, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Hey, mine are all hand drawn. Right up until they get on the computer and get redrawn. Makes it much easier to turn and edit them so that north is up. :-)
(just kidding E - git 'er done!)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 25, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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Here's a rotated version; this one still fits on a page.
When I'm just looking at the book, it's nice to have North up.
When I'm actually using the map, I'll rotate it to my direction
of travel to see if I can ID the landmarks along the path.
So your method of rotating the map to match the initial direction
of travel is good, since there is lots of text on the map.
I thought it might be fun to see if the text rotation could be
taken one step further, to match multiple directions of travel on the approach.
So I played around with rotating the text to match the 3 directions on the approach.
Maybe too "busy", though, and not nice for casual reading.
version with North up
version in "book" orientation (no text upsidedown = better)
I suppose the text is backwards for the descent, but maybe the map is not used so intensively at that point.
One other thing I modified was to remove as many arrows as possible.
No way could I hang in there to clean up 101 maps! Good work on the project.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Porn, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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Done. The final number is 106.
Going out to celebrate with a fine Mexican lunch!
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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Good work E!
Interesting experiment Clint - but really peculiar and unfamiliar at first glance, and thereby confusing to most users, I would think.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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I was thinking more about this last night and realized that I'm doing the same thing on a guide I've been working on for years. The maps are aligned as a climber would "enter" the area. Most people (even climbers) don't seem to know which way north is most of the time, so I think it will make more sense to them to have the map aligned as they're viewing the area. If the maps were aligned to north, they would have to "turn the map in their head" to make sense of anything.
For overall maps (eg. those used to drive to the parking spot), I can see sticking to the "north is up" rule so that the map makes sense in terms of standard road maps, but after that, I think it depends. Just my $0.02.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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I know that no one gets rich off of it, but publishing guides to climbing areas is a sacrifice and public service?
Asking for things you might appreciate in a product, like GPS coordinates, is somehow critical and a failure to appreciate the work of self sacrificing guidebook authors? Some people pay just to find out what potential customers might actually want so that the competition doesn’t come out with something more desirable soon after.
GPS use is evil or worse for the environment or other people’s experience than using paper maps or tromping down multiple access trails though fragile Sedona soil on steep slopes approaching routes? The nice thing about the painstakingly well drawn topos is that they get you to the start of the route on one consistent approach. Sometimes this can be augmented with GPS readings. Its not evil or even very scary and less intrusive than cairns.
Asking for anything more in what someone is selling you shows a lack of gratitude?
Super topo people are nice generally, but some of you are really kind of crazy.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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Nice work E!
Your updates give me strength to keep scrapping away at my own project...
Here to you and yours,
Cheers!
Tom
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Pedge wrote:
"I know that no one gets rich off of it, but publishing guides to climbing areas is a sacrifice and public service?"
Not trying to be combative here, but it pretty much has been in my experience.
If I'm lucky, I've managed to maybe just break even on the guidebooks I've done, when considering gas, time, processing film (pre-digital), supplies, etc. Add in the fact that you're out there drawing maps and topos, taking photos, getting GPS coordinates, etc. when you could be off climbing your own tick list at other areas and it's a slam dunk.
There's another way to think about it... Erik and Dave are maybe within a couple months of wrestling the Sedona info to the ground so it can be put together into a book and everyone steps in and basically says "Hey guys, why don't you get in your car and head out to EVERY location in the guide, hike on into the place again and get GPS coordinates for us."
Very much a "donation" to the climbing community in my opinion, which is okay. Most guidebook authors I know do it because they love it, not because they'll get rich or famous.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Can't wait. I know how much time such an undertaking can take. Way to go! I'm with Steelmonkey about orienting the map so that it makes sense to climbers entering an area. Most climbers could care less about north unless it means shade or cold! I've included north arrows on the maps in guides I've done, but it didn't always have to point to the top of the book. You can always just turn the book to "face" north if you want to. Keep it up!
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