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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sometimes I think I've forgotten more things than i remember...
sometimes just the time, helps
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Remember the people in '100 Years of Solitude' who wrote out labels for everything, until they forgot how to read?
Menento rocked BTW, Have I told you this before?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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Monday Blood bump
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Karl,
Good thread. To my way of thinking, what really allows folks to mend fences when they are older is finally being at a point in their life that they are secure in who they are. When we are young and trying to find our place in the world, our feelings are easily heart. We take these strong stands on issues we don't fully understand, and when someone goes against that stand we are crushed. Some seem to never reach that stage, they stay insecure and easily offended.
You can try to bring opposing factions together to heal the bad blood, but if those factions haven't come to peace with themselves, they'll never be able to reach peace with others.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Paul,
don't rule out the dreaded mid-life crisis which can turn a seemingly reasonable person back into that young, insecure being of years ago. The climbing community seems to be unusually susceptible to this when one's climbing ability starts to decrease.
Bruce
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Like grecian formula, extremely you women, etc?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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Good thoughts Paul
It's funny how when we look at the "crimes" committed against us in life, many are really just affronts to our ego, our idea of ourselves. If somebody doesn't give us the respect feel we need, in the way we think we need it, it reminds us that we doubt ourselves and it hurts
If we accept ourselves deeply, other people can't threaten it so easily.
Thing is, most people, including us, are so concerned with our own selfish stuff, we don't even realize the extent that we're disrespecting others in their perspective.
I know that very few people really understand me and it's a constant effort to make sure I understand and am honest with myself even. Therefore, how to be offended when others misunderstand or act selfishly?
PEace
Karl
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Sarah Funky Fresh
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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My confession:
I went to a climbing gym that shall go unnamed where the owner treated my friend and me like sh#t.
We left feeling burned, so I decided to start a gym review section on my Web site where I told the world about her meanness.
I felt vindicated because she was unpleasant without provocation. What I didn’t realize until after pondering this thread was I was tapping into the same negative energy as her – I had become her. I did the wrong thing, and there is no vindication for that.
So I want to apologize to her and anyone who read that gym review because it brought negative energy into their day.
I have taken down the gym review section and replaced it with trip reports.
Thanks everyone on this thread that made me examine my actions and step up my game! After all, the point of my site is to provide a positive place for climbers, and I was the first one to violate my own intention.
Sarah Jane,
www.time2climb.com
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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""It is FAR more satisfing to leave your enemies in pieces than in peace." - ME."
Hi Rox
How do you know who your enemies are. You just said some critical things about me in your last post and if I was feeling sensitive I could put you on my sh#t list and start a process of dividing supertopo in the Baba-friendly and baba-unfriendly camps with a gitmo for Fatty even though he's nice to me...we don't agree.
But the thing is, I like you plenty and figure you have your own stuff like we all do, so i'm not taking it personal. (that makes me better see? ;-)
Where's it start and where's it end?
Sounds like you just want to be left to your own pain. If that stops working for you...
Peace
Karl
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L
climber
Somewhere under the Milky Way tonight...
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PEace Karl ;-)
My greatest lesson to date is the realization that you can't fight unconsciousness--just like you can't fight the darkness. You can only bring in the light.
You yourself do this with such simple beauty and integrity...and I feel profoundly gifted to be part of this community with you.
Thanks for your kindness, and thanks for sharing your spirit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Thanks L
Rox wrote
"Its genetic."
Genetically inherited recreational negativity is hereby excused during August in honor of DirtinEye, who likes to be grumpy now and then.
It's good to beware of how much inner satisfaction we get from blaming people and having enemies though. Not pointing that at anyone in particular but we all know folks (and maybe a bit in ourselves) that love to chew on some bitter leaves
Peace
Karl
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Rox if you could channel your angryness into climbing you'd be leading A5 and freeing 5.14
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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This thread reminds me of the Jesus at the Crags thread, but without all of the T&A.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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You might try to get a feel about what bugs you so much about this thread Melissa. Is there something you feel pressured to let go of but wont?
It's not the preachiness cause I think if I was pontificating about how we should maintain traditional climbing ethics with boldness and minimum bolts, you'd probably be saying "Amen!"
Peace
Karl
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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whoa, there's t&a on that thread? WhatamIdoin on this thread?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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Nice Rox
I seems like there are stages of experience, the experience itself, our reaction to it, and then the stories we spin about it.
Climbers engage in a sport thats full of pain. It would be hard to just sit there and inflict that level of pain (and fear) on ourselves. If that level of pain were inflicted on us, it would mean war, but it's all in good fun when climbing.
So our resistance to our pain is worse than the pain itself by a huge degree.
Maybe sour can be like that too. If we feel sour, it's ours to laugh about or to blame somebody about.
I have tons of martial artist friends who love to spar and climbing can feel like fighting too. Perhaps we use these things to exercise some aggression thing that's built into us.
Of course the difference comes if we carry our aggression and competition into wrecked friendships. family ties and relationships. I don't think we should ditch those things too easily or cause we like to fight.
PEace
Karl
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there karl and all... say, karl, as to this quote from some of what you said earlier:
"It's funny how when we look at the "crimes" committed against us in life, many are really just affronts to our ego, our idea of ourselves. If somebody doesn't give us the respect feel we need, in the way we think we need it, it reminds us that we doubt ourselves and it hurts
If we accept ourselves deeply, other people can't threaten it so easily.
Thing is, most people, including us, are so concerned with our own selfish stuff, we don't even realize the extent that we're disrespecting others in their perspective."
SAY----i have a younger friend, and i kind of mentor her, from a mother-point of view... and she has come to see these kind of situationss as you have mentioned....
she had come to see that there is a lot more peace in her life, when she is able to look at what she sees as a "personal attack on her ways" as under new light----she can learn from it more and see what is just a difference of oppinion or even just a simple misunderstanding... she just needed to keep her ego out of it, until she had a chance to study it from all angles...
say, she is growing up just fine, and i am so very happy for her... she makes less and less wrong calls and even when there IS one, she is forgiving and in the long run, the folks are even coming BACK to her, as peacemakers, as well...
*course not all the folks are, but she is learning that is part of life, too---and some parts of life, we are not to be pushing ourselves to feel that we "must control others" concerning it...
there day will come, so to speak, when THEY need to learn, and they will... until their own ways, bring them down... then, they'll be starting over again and perhaps someone, in kindness will be there, to help them back up...
but---the one that would have fell prey to personal ego, will have been able to get free, on their end, and teach some valueable lessons to others... their own kids perhaps, or who knows...
well---just sharling some stuff you reminded me about, as i do the "older grannie stuff" by helping out the next generation, so to speak... ;)
trying to be one of the "healers of bad blood", on the homefront... ;) intead of out in the ol' mountain crags, and rocky climbing trails, as you all are doing...
god bless... and good cheer to you all... :)
clean hearts sure make one feel good, when they get shuck of their old dry burdens... :)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Perhaps what bugs me, Karl, about the direction that this thread has ultimately taken is that I find page after page of your diatribe about peace and forgivess really hard to swallow after all of the backhanded swipes that you've taken over the years at me and my friends while always signing out PEace or similar.
Sometimes it seems like you are trying to buy indulgences with the long missives and self-bumped threads about peace and forgiveness.
When I challenged the appropriateness of grandstanding on a sensitive topic when others were atill struggling with it, you chose the provocative path of citing examples of abuse and disputes past along with page after page of how we should feel, what we should think, why we are wrong, and what the awful consequences of disagreeing with you might be. That sort of stuff seems more like the words of someone looking for peace and connectedness with onlookers...not words meant to heal a rift with the indivual being addressed.
I'm not advocating hate or bitter argument as a sport or goal. However, rather than looking for disingenuous peace, I'd prefer to just try to live decently, own the consequences of my missteps, and accept that there will be incompatabilities.
No doubt, partly I am also bothered because I strayed from my own chosen path of civilly ignoring or avoiding people that I know will bug me. I should have known better than to read a peace and love thread started by you, but I hadn't filled my day with enough interesting real life to stop myself. Shame on me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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I can live with that post, which is a reasonable perspective for you to have, even if I don't agree.
and in fact, it's not secret that I don't agree with your perspectives on climbing morals/style and such.
Sadly it seems a secret to you that I otherwise like you and your friends and that disagreement over things, even things important to you, shouldn't be a barrier to otherwise good vibes, for me anyway.
Regarding certain parts of your post, I'll answer via email
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Problem is, to take your life on the road and lay it on the line often enough to give a sane man pause takes a certain amount of conviction. When you get people with lots of conviction, you get a lot of convicts... haha. No but seriously, its all good in tha hood. Bolts, Beaks, Bashies, its all a lot of work anyway so lets just climb yah?
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