Discussion Topic |
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 30, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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John Bachar's Memorial brought me back to a lot of great people and events from the early 1980s in Yosemite.
One thing that struck me was that despite how great many of these people were, strong opinions about style, reputation, routes, and competitive zeal often created bad blood between the vivid and independent characters that we climbers often are.
In our older ages, many present had set down the axes they used to grind and realized our connections were more important than our differences and misunderstandings. Dave Yerian said it well in conclusion to his remarks, something along the lines of "Climbing isn't as important as the Love we have for each other."
Hearing from folks close to John, I was happy to hear that he had cleared some air with people from his past where there had been difficulties in the past. It's good to go on your journey without excess unresolved tensions.
I'm not saying we should abandon our ethics or style. I'm saying we can disagree about it without creating bad Blood. We probably can't stop competing with our friends and peers, but it doesn't have to take us to a dark place.
A lesson I'm hoping many will take from this is that it's important to mend the bad blood and misunderstandings that we create in our lives. Sometimes we're just young, hot and immature, and sometimes we just get our priorities twisted.
You never know when it's going to be too late to heal bad blood. THink about it.
Make
PEace
Karl
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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amen, Babu.
lucky for me i'm not good enough that anyone cares what i do. and what little i am almost good at happens so many miles from the crowds that no one ever knows...
canis fidelis est,
^,,^
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Fletcher
Trad climber
a buttery white sand beach... I wish!
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Karl, once again, your kind and wise spirit shines through.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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A little competitive spirit drives us to improve on ourselves and we should always remember to step lightly with our allies in arms.
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Sarah Funky Fresh
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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Hey, you guys, I was thinking about how caustic climbers can be sometimes ... especially on the Internet. I wanted to be part of the solution to that. I started a Web site where climbers can (among other things) celebrate each other. If anyone is interested in telling a tale of someone they think is awesome, I have created a place to do that. My most recent entry was about my friend Alvaro. When I saw him at the gym today, he thanked me and gave me a big hug, his eyes shining. So I know I spread a little happiness into his life. I invite you all to do this for your friends. Thank you, Karl, for broaching this important subject. I believe climbing has the power to heal us individually as well as collectively.
Sarah Jane, time2climb.com
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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"Karl. . . what I want to know is why you always capitalize the PE in peace? "
If I type it fast enough, that's what happens.
Here's a clickable link to Sarah's page for the lazy ones like I can be
http://www.time2climb.com/
Climbing isn't quite as caustic as it used to be when it was a total boy's club of dirt Dwellers, but we still get on each other's nerves plenty.
For my part, sorry to those who I don't always show due respect for. In my heart, I have no enemies
peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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Karls' so right. And of course it goes beyond climbing.
My brother, Oney, drowned back in the winter of 1984, when he fell through the ice, fishing. He and I were really close, almost like twins. My older brother, Dan, was also close to him - they were close in age and partied together as best friends would.
At any rate, Dan and Oney had a set of friends, also brothers, named Steve and Andy. The two had had some sort of fall out and were not on speaking terms. But when Oney died, Dan went to both Steve and Andy separately, and begged them to mend their differences.
The two had made an effort to do just that, though it was only an initial one, when Steve was killed in a motorcycle accident.
Andy was devastated, of course, to lose his brother, but he was so grateful that they had done that little bit to get past their difficulty.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Jul 30, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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Well said Karl. Thank you.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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yeah, that's it.
[image via www.time2climb.com]
^,,^
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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I would also point out (loving KB's remarks as always), There Is Not That Much Time Left For Many Of Us. Believe me. So many of us, your predecessors, are approaching our life expectancy, you know. Do It Now, please.
Climbing is just a wire armature for your sculpture. What will you create with this? Have you cleverly used it to keep the lid on your emotions and love, needs for intimacy? Within the routine and protocol have you been able to hide, back in there from feelings that disturb you? Or have you been lucky and seen it as the best opportunity you feel you will ever experience, to express your strongest, most honorable impeccable self in the company of like-minded artists?
love p.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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Spot on, Karl.
Unfortunately, our true priorities in life oftentimes don't become clear until much later in life, especially as we experience (or simply observe in others) the loss of important people in our lives. Touchstone comments like yours are helpful.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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hey there karl... say, what a sweet kind breath from the great outdoors, is flowing here, from all this...
say, many times, too, it IS "youth" in the blood of those "hot on the trail of adventure"...
but say, older folks can be quilty of being "set in there ways" and not able to be free like a river...
whatever the reasons, HEALING is always wonderful... and, given freely, it actually can freely flow back, in most cases...
thanks for you wise words...
and happiegrrrl... oh my, thanks for sharing your story....
edit: my auntie died that way, though not when fising...
edit: say, i forgot, to sarah jane...
my littlist sister has downs syndrom and was adopted... we never got to see her and grow up with her... :(
say, her name is "sarah jane"---it is sure is nice to see that someone else with that name, is spreading wonderful healting to others... god bless... keep letting that name shine... :)
for a little gal that can't reach out as far, to do so...
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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I hope the chop/don't chop population of ST click on this thread.
I don't have much hope that the politico/religios will.
I raise my glass to healing, to kindness, to placing more emphasis on understanding the other than on being understood, and to peace.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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Make them an offer they can't refuse.
Don't get mad, get even.
Go to the mattresses.
Oh wait, I'm confused. I must have thought this had to do with Anastasia's "Mafia Wars" game.
I'll go to the car now.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Yes, it was very thoughtful of Dave Yerian, Wayno (Wayne Miller) and their two friends to come all the way to Squamish for Daryl's memorial in 2004. Dave came from California, Rick LeDuc (mazamarick) from central Washington, Wayne from Seattle, and the other two I think from California.
Here we all are on the top of the Chief, just before we spread Daryl's ashes to the winds.
Something to think about, that we had only come together for such a memorial, forgetting our minor differences. Many of the main figures from Squamish climbing history from the 1960s to 1980s.
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Sarah Funky Fresh
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Aw, shucks, thanks for the clicky, Karl, I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
Yeah, pip, if only climbers were all as mellow as my homeboy Alvaro and his companion Leo, we wouldn't have to have this thread. But it's a good one. :)
I snapped that shot of the boys on one of our many climbing trips. They both get along with everyone. Alvaro, because he has a sweet nature. Leo also ... plus he doesn't have a testosterone problem, if you know what I mean, snip, snip.
Incidentally, snipped guys are hot! :) I hope to find one when I have time for a man.
neebee, I am on a mission to shine the light of love that is at the core of us all. I bet your little Sarah Jane did the same. Your separation is temporary and illusionary.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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werd, I can't f*#king stand intolerant people.
munge make funny
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jul 31, 2009 - 02:58am PT
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I was really impressed by John Bachar as an opponent a couple of years ago.
It was on the interminable thread about what bad boys Sean Jones and I were for daring to rap bolt on the South Face of Half Dome. Some bad blood got leaked for sure.
John, however, while as fully opposed to our actions as he could possibly be, was ever respectful in expressing his feelings. Strong feelings, boldly put, but not a drop of bad blood and no hint of slinging sh*t.
I was mighty impressed. Plenty of lowlife temperament was sloshing around that thread. I had to wear my high boots, and sometimes pace through the redwoods for hours before replying.
But with John, (and with many others of you still here -- thanks to all), respect flowed back and forth enough that we could just sidestep the personality assassination and gnaw on the issues themselves.
Cool!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:09am PT
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I'm all about forgiveness, reconciliation and healing. Life is too short, and too precious. I'm willing to speak with anyone anytime.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 10:16am PT
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I'd like to suggest that, regardless of who was wrong or right in some scenario in our recent or long ago past, that nobody should be expected to hate themselves or crawl in a hole.
We have a tendency to beat up ourselves within, even as we defend ourselves on the outside. That's gotta end for peace to win out.
You can apologize or agree to disagree, but everybody has to come out of a reconciliation with a continued ability to repect themselves and their tribe
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:27am PT
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Its not just climbing, it's life. We never know when we leave the door or the campsite each day if we will return safely. Anything can happen to any of us at any moment so it is crucial for all of us to clear up any baggage that we have.
I had a bad breakup in the late 80s that never resolved itself. right after 911 I vowed to go clear it up but was too chicken. I had at least 4 or 5 dreams a year where this woman and myself wrer passing by each other and we both wanted to talk but couldn't. Nightmares really. I drove right by her house every day for 6 more years before she finally contacted me and let me know what I needed to hear and I let her know on my end the things that she needed to hear. Just like that the dreams vanished.
Imagin if either of us had passed on before that reconciliation the tourtured soles of both the liveing and the dead.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Nice one, Tradman. But you should have been quicker to offer the olive branch. Even if she didn't accept it, you knew you tried.
I like the Obama approach - the Beer Summit. I'll meet anyone anytime. See you on the bridge this fall, eh?
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redrocker
climber
Las Vegas, Nevada
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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"Good climbing and good company often go together; each is essential to the enjoyment of the other."
Tom Patey
From Royal Robbins book Advanced Rockcraft
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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Nice job, Karl. I have always tried to get along with people, even in my youth, even though I could feel as strongly as the next guy about an issue.
So it always amazed me how poisonous stuff could get between climbers sometimes.
Must Get Along It's Only Climbing
(Even though it's one of the most important things in my life.)
Munge, that really cracked me up!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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Pete, I was the one who had been sent packing and told not to call way back when so my fears of contacting her were pretty valid. I didn't want her to feel like I was pushing her. She needed to come to the place where she did for it to happen. As chance would have it 14 something years later I moved into a cabin 4 miles farther up the road from her farm and had to drive by every day which made me feel a bit uncomfortable...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 11:04am PT
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Cool posts everyone.
If this thread starts to fade, I think it would be cool if folks told some of their tales of Bad blood made good, or sadly, bad blood that remains that we can't get over.
Peace
Karl
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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But isn't sad that a god has to fall from the sky to heal bad blood on earth, especially when the bad blood is the result of a shared passion? Or, on the other hand, is this healing the ultimate tribute to the fallen?
Either way, those of us who, as Peter so delicately puts it, are approaching our life expectancies, tend to acquire a certain perspective on former issues of hot contention, and I for one don't think fatigue has anything to do with it.
If we manage to stay conscious as we age, the boundaries of our knowledge and understanding expand enormously, and the almost claustrophobic confines of our youthful perspectives give way to broad vistas in which our original views, now the subject of contexts previously unimagined, occupy a far more modest place,
So I would say, yes, reach out to those from who you have become estranged, before the final estrangement renders all gestures futile. But while we are at it, how about tamping down the some of the trash talking that all too often characterize our everyday electronic discourse? Why pollute the communal interchanges we obviously value with the toxic effluvient of the worst aspects of our imperfect nature?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Hey Karl,
SuperTopo has provided a ready means for many of us shrunken, testosterone depleted, surpassed-by-all, dotage dwelling climbers to let bye gones be bye gones. As I have pointed out to most of my old climbing friends, SuperTopo and the get-togethers are cathartic.
I don't really think that it is so much that there is any current bad blood (the energy level to even start is beyond the pale), just uncertainty about how all the old stuff fits together now after years of sitting neglected. Because of forums like SuperTopo and get togethers such as the Nose50 reunion and John’s memorial (which I couldn’t attend), most of us have realized that our time together a long time ago has many more shared and treasured moments than old hurts and my-routes/style-are-better-than-your-routes/style taunts. (Now it is polite talk about kids).
As Peter points out, we all end up in the same place--nothing like the scent of rigor mortis to clear the air.
PEace
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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I just choose to like everyone, see the positive and keep good humor about life.
Bad blood takes too much energy to engage, plus negativity affects one physiologically and can lead to a multitude of health problems.
That's just what I choose to believe.
I wish some of the angry and judgemental people on this forum would see past their opinions, beliefs and perspectives to find the healing Karl speaks of.
Trolling is the antithesis of the healing.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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Amen, Karl, and the rest of you peaceful warriors.
Kind, thoughtful and caring words.
Climbing has been such a wonderful gift to my life. Style and ethics are important, but it is the friendship and great times together that we will carry with us the longest.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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Peace brothers! Right on Karl.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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I guess to some people, negative attention is better than none at all. Like the saying goes -- "the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about" ..
How do you help such folks ? I think just cutting off their supply of negative attention is best. Use the ignore button.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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Karl,
Thanks for getting this dialogue going. I will say that from the perspective of climbing parts of five decades that climbers are a pretty damn collegial group. Sure, there are spats that are usually "tempests in a teapot" but, for the most part, climbers get along, have shared values and respect each other more than the population at large.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Well put, Jim, and thanks, Karl. I was never a good enough climber to feel (or, I hope, cause) any bad blood from climbers. I think our shared passion leads to a bond that's hard to break when the chips are down.
John
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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Group hug!!!111
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Hey Karl et al,
We all get frustrated, etc at times, and I think that it easily gets amplified by the web. There's the difficulty to put much of a tone of voice, or 'tone of face' in text. Sarcasm or even self mockery can be easily misconstrued. That said I'd believe (hope) that the overwhelming majority of us would happily sit down and have a beer or soda with each other around a real campfire.
Even me, with my panties in a bunch about bolts, would happily have a drink with anyone involved in the fevered debate(s) (as long as we could talk about something else for a change). It's ok for people to agree to disagree.
There are a few people who I have strong ethical (climbing) disagreements with. I still did hanging with them and camping with them. They're great people we just don't always see eye to eye.
Anyhow my point is it's fine to disagree - accept that you're gonna disagree and chances are other than that the person is prolly a pretty cool decent person. Doesn't seem like there should truly be 'bad blood' especially over petty things.
On that note I'm heading to out to climb. Have a good weekend all...
cheers,
kev
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Isn't it our independent ways that inversely creates the 'climbing community'? - the net just makes that transparent whereas before it was a collective psychological phenomena only validated at camp fires, climbing mags and topos.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Yerian's speech was amazing. He offered up a suggestion that will be hard to live up to, but is about the most rewarding, important thing in life.
"it's about love... watching out for... and trusting, each other..."
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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Dave spoke eloquently at Daryl's memorial also, in a similar manner.
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MarthaP
climber
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Jul 31, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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Karl,
I think it's also possible to forgive our own bad blood and just walk away.
Carlos Castaneda said that in every circumstance there is a petty tyrant - someone there to push our buttons and force us to take a deep look at ourselves in how we handle such situations.
I think it's possible to let it go but sometimes in doing so it means letting the physical manifestation go as well. No point reconciling where there is none to be had.
Beyond that I'm too weak a human to take on what I see is something Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama are best at. I am humbled by their souls but will inevitably take a hike on the Kumbaya trail.
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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It won't be long until we all report to God's big desk (metaphorically speaking) so get yer homework done before then...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Sometimes "bad blood" exists between people striving for different visions of the greater good. Often it is a private matter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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For those who haven't read my shield trip report, here's an example of climbing being the method of healing bad blood rather than instigating it.
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/ElCapShield.html
I'm happy to see so many feeling there isn't much bad blood around these days. Things used to be rougher and I'm still hearing stories about folks not speaking over a bolt drilled or a stolen route, so I'm glad we're talking about this now.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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Are you sure that the people involved in those stories of bad blood are glad that you are talking about it?
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Wings of Steel
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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(Hartouni photo)
Namaste, y'all!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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Sounds good and all... But, seriously, what wrong with gloves in the lot? Camp 4 style. No one can call the tools then, you can still dish out an ass beating, or receive one... Seems to me that a lack of accountability for one's actions is running rampant in this country today.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
slowly dying in the OC
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Wings of Steel?
So what!
In the grand scheme of things, I'd like to think that the "brotherhood of the rope" is stronger than our differences. Despite all our arguments about politics, religion, or even the important things like climbing style or ethics, our common bond is that rope and our mutual love the sport.
I am happy to say that I bear no one, and I do mean not one single solitary person, in this sport any ill will. Tradsters, pad people, mad bolters, happy bolters, alpinists, noobs, gumbie, plastic pullers - I really don't care. What matters to me is that when I meet one of us, anywhere in the world, we have a point where the fabric of our lives is interwoven. We have a common language. I'd like to hope that we can leverage our commonality to find a bit of peace in this hectic reality.
I for one, am happy to call each of you my brother (or sister if you are female or climb on the Apron too much).
Sure, we get mad at our family members from time to time, but it doesn't mean we love each other any less.
It's late Friday afternoon. Barbarian is signing off. Climb safe.
Peace.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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"Are you sure that the people involved in those stories of bad blood are glad that you are talking about it?"
Who are you addressing Melissa? Most everything in this thread so far has been in very general terms and I don't see a lot of personal stuff revealed above.
If somebody choses to post their personal stuff, hopefully they will use their best judgement about what to say and not say and whether to use names.
Sweeping the general issue under the rug would be repugnant to me.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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Being a very private person about certain things, I thought that generally talking on Supertopo about an issue with respect to a specific recently deceased person might be hurtful to some of the mourners with whom the issue specifically arose.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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I don't think we are talking about John specifically (although a number of close mourners publicly spoke regarding his famous rough edges during his youth during his memorial)
I was just reminded by so many people from that time period how much rivalry and disputes polluted relationships and how positive the outcomes were when people got over it.
The history of climbing is full of bad blood and sometimes we get over it. Friction between folks like Robbins and Harding are infamous but bridges get built in many case. Let's keep building them.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Yeah, I thought we were addressing the wider picture, here.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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The problem I have is that all "bad blood" is not created equal. In one case you have disagreements between climbers or groups of climbers on styles or ethics. In a second case you have some sort of disagreement between a specific climber or climbers based on something that happened before, during or after a climb.
I think it is a lot easier to forgive and forget the first example, especially if you aren't planning on climbing with that person or group of persons.
The second case is much more difficult to resolve as there are major trust issues involved in roping up with someone. When I climb with someone, I need to feel that they respect me enough as a person that if we get into a tight spot they will do whatever they can to get us out. That may be as easy as working together as a team to jointly figure out a plan of action or it might be as difficult as them putting their own life in danger to save mine.
If I get into a situation on a climb and because of how the situation was resolved (or not resolved) I feel that I cannot trust the climber to look out for me then I don't think that there can be healing unless the other climber acknowledges their actions and how they can be modified to result in a positive outcome. The key here is to have an open dialogue between the climbers with everyone owning up to their actions.
Luckily, in my 35 years of climbing this situation has only happened once to me.
Bruce
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
nowhere, I'm headed for certain doom
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I like wolves. Met one.
He just passed on by, a king in the forest.
Whoa.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Bad blood exists for a reason... some guys are just terminal a-holes.
Why would I or anyone else attempt to embrace that, on a death bed or otherwise?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the ground up
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I appreciated firsthand how he was a model-citizen of the taco , but I find genius in the brash and 'punching people' Bachar (of the past albeit) , not so much the sugar coated post mortem .
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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i think it would be great to all have a "healing" get togather and take turns punching Rokjox in the face repeatenly. First make him take his glasses off and lay his cane down.
Then we could hug him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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I don't want this thread to be about John, but wanted to address this post
"I appreciated firsthand how he was a model-citizen of the taco , but I find genius in the brash and 'punching people' Bachar (of the past albeit) , not so much the sugar coated post mortem ."
The young john was genius but it wasn't in his brashness. Yes, he was sanitized a bit post-mortem but everybody is.
In the end, John Bachar stood tall on his own rather than on the backs of anybody else. That doesn't mean he sugar coated himself a bit. That was a fine human accomplishment that I respect deeply.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Bruce
I think "trust" and "bad blood" are two different issues. We don't have to keep climbing (or stay married) to somebody to forgive them or erase bad blood.
We all have our selfish natures and there is a limit to the extent we can trust anyone, even ourselves. I have some great friends that would drive 500 miles to help me out in a pinch but might not follow through on our plans if they are having a bad day. I accept their limitations and plan around that, and they accept mine.
Good to ask yourself, however stinging a bolt, or a stolen route, or a personal slight or any of that human weakness stuff might feel, if that former friend were to become lost forever (or until we join them) would the source of the bad blood still seem so important?
[/Bruce]
We're all human. It's ironic that (not talking about anybody here) that a guy who might feel totally cheated and wronged if his woman were to be unfaithful, might be easily tempted under the wrong circumstances to do the same.
My Feeling, whatever standard of judgement we apply to others, we better be willing to live that our ourselves and not just in the realms of life where we feel strong.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Ernie used to Box...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Hey Rocky, you the one that brought up the punching idea, I was just trying to do a little healing. So what now, don't want to take your medicine? All you can handle, but I dont' wail on old guys usually mostly cause I am one myself. I don't think this was the theme Karl had in mind when he started this thread so it must be a nice surprise.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Talk about bad blood, I have a couple of stories, you wanted specifics well, here you go.
Let's begin with the most recent. I was up at Tahquitz today, most of the climbers I met up with on the trail, coming and going were a bunch of a*es, stuck up, and seemed to just take themselves WAY too seriously. Of all the climbers I passed only two groups were friendly, the guys who parked next to us in Humber park-cool dudes, super nice guys.
Later heading down the trail a couple of guys, (young) chatted my daughter and I up! they were funny and sweet.
Thing is, my daughter and I are friendly, outgoing and cheerful, not in anyone's way, she even remarked about the attitudes of people we came across today.
Revisiting the past with a more specific example, I used to climb with a woman named "Karen", we had fun, she was cool, until one day I posted some remark she found offensive on a climber forum, and basically she wrote me off as a friend. Here is the thing, it was not about her, nothing at all, the comment was a climbing ethic topic with no relation to her but she sure took it personally.
Frankly, reflecting back, she definitely had some weird issues to get all bent out of shape over my comment that had nothing what so ever to do with her.
Third bad blood. Once again, wrote some lame comment online, not directed at anyone, just spouting off about random stuff and another friend took it personally accusing me of being insensitive towards him!!!!! WTF, it wasn't about him, I was just being silly, I made a negative comment about cross-country skiing. Later he came to me saying, "You know I like this kind of skiing and that was offensive....blau, blau, blau,....."
he wrote me off as well....
Believe me, I more than willing to apologize if I open my mouth and somehow say something that you don't like. The people who know me would agree I am not at all mean, or nasty, nor go out of my way to get under other people's skin.
It hurts that I was written off so quickly when I honestly did not do a damn thing wrong!!!! again, I would apologize even if I was or wasn't in the wrong!!!!
Oh well.....what are you going to do? I've done my part in trying to mend those above situations but to no avail.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Karen, I personally wouldnt sweat the small stuff, the world is full of aholes, me and Rocky are two prime examples. Just ignore the ignoramses like us and enjoy life. Ok, Rok, a beer it is, but I can't find the wallstaller right now, its around here somewhere....hey, I just realized YOU the one who owe me a cold one, what kinda tricky rhetoric are you using?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Blotch and Karl, do you have that right? Chapman punched Bachar on Ronnie's behalf, not the other way around.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Karl,
good comments. The problem I have is that I am more than willing to sit down and talk things through and try to patch things up. But, if the other party won't acknowledge their actions and just wants to "put it behind us" and pretend that nothing happened it is hard for me to forgive.
Part of being in a relationship, and whether we like it or not, most climbing partnerships are relationships, is being able to have frank and honest discussion when things go badly. If we can't have those types of discussions then there really is no relationship.
I am way past picking up partner of any age, sex or ability just to go climbing. For me, climbing is about making relationships. That's why it is important for me to be able to communicate with my climbing partners.
Having said all that, Karl, you are probably correct that bad blood and trust are different things. I will have to give that some more thought.
Bruce
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 03:23am PT
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Peter wrote
"Blotch and Karl, do you have that right? Chapman punched Bachar on Ronnie's behalf, not the other way around."s
I'm confused. I don't remember bringing up that famous bad blood incident at all anywhere, particularly in this thread.
I was impressed with Ron's memorial speaking about Bachar. He credited the friction and competition he had with John with pushing him to heights he wouldn't have otherwise reached, and gave us a positive vision to take with us and use for ourselves and our community.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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yeah, Dingus, some things are better left unsaid.
I was sitting by Kauk the other day when he got called up, it is my sincere belief that he was not planning on speaking...
What he did manage to say (among other things) was "I've had a lot of climbing partners and of them all, he was the best."
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Ray-J
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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No getting past all the "bad blood" caused by climbers in my life, - damege to life was so severe for so long all I can sense is the hope I'll never lay eyes on the losers again.
No to mention the loss to the climbing community and the sport for attempting to suppress my game-changing designs out of their own weak envy,
Ray
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seamus mcshane
climber
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"Don't sweat the petty, Just pet the sweaty."
Some sage...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Rokjox, I heard you used to climb with Senator Larry Craig. and liked it. Sounds like you are straddling the proverbial fence...thats gotta hurt. You owe me a sixpack now, and you'll have to wear a little apron when you serve it, cold please and a few for my Cali buddies here on ST as well.
hey Ray, You kicked ass back in the day. Allot naysayers still around, but you were out there getting it done. My hat is off to you and your efforts are still appreciated. Yeah, you stepped out of line to a different drummer and that will always draw allot of fire.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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DMT...Good story. The only thing worse than having someone unload feelings and deeds onto you that you weren't looking to shoulder is having them follow it up with statements about how you are supposed to feel about and deal with their revelations.
Just fer example...nothing calms a woman down like telling her to "calm down" because she's "over-reacting" when she's bothered about something (er...something you did). Yep, tell and angry woman that she's over reacting, and she's be as passive as a lamb within seconds. Garunteed. Ask me how I know.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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How do you know Melissa?
and calm down, like a women, you sound like youre overreacting.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I walked into that one. ;-)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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I think it would be pretty funny if DMT=Roxjock but I know it ain't so.
Melissa's example is limited. Of course telling somebody how THEY should Be puts them on the spot and feels like judgement. Folks with issues resolving relationship stress or heck, just about everybody, would be well served by checking out the work of Marshall Rosenberg's Non-violent communication. It allows you to state where you are coming from without needlessly judging and labeling people around you in the process.
http://www.cnvc.org/
http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/
Of course, people play dishonest games even with attempts as good communication. I envision poor results even with "I understand you'll be getting your period soon and feel the intensity of your words toward me are a product of inner stress you're experiencing."
Letting go of stuff can involve processing with someone or it can be internal. Things can be situational. If we told the partner to roast in a boiling pot of waste effluent, sometimes a few words later could be in order.
Personally, I think folks who risk grievous bodily injury for fun as a sport probably could stand to pump up some emotional courage to face other stuff as well.
Folks can claim the deal is done and they are stuck with their bad blood but, if you know yourself inside, you will probably see that you suffer from it, subtly but it keeps you from being free.
Jaybro wrote
"I was sitting by Kauk the other day when he got called up, it is my sincere belief that he was not planning on speaking... "
Complimented Kauk on what he said. He told me he went up there with nothing prepared. Kauk is amazing... when he was young, i felt he was one of the most inarticulate people I could think of. I didn't think he could express himself for anything. Now he is a profound orator in his own deep, straightforward way.
Shows that people can change.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Melissa's example is limited. Of course telling somebody how THEY should Be puts them on the spot and feels like judgement. Folks with issues resolving relationship stress or heck, just about everybody, would be well served by checking out the work of Marshall Rosenberg's Non-violent communication."
Did you mean for this to be ironic?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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You're probably just reading too much into it cause of being an emotional girl type
We're saying the same things, however just because it's not cool to tell someone judgmental things about them doesn't mean we have to avoid being real and saying how We feel.
But if you want ironic, let me judge thusly, those who wish to be protected from reality and how people feel are indulging in wimpy weakness. Expecting everyone to shut up about their pain for your comfort is worse than any form of retrobolting.
I've known families where somebody who dared expose abuse was ostracized as rocking the family boat while the perpetrator of severe abuse was left alone, cause nobody wanted to think the guy paying the bills might have big issues.
not cool in my opinion
Peace
karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Expecting everyone to shut up about their pain for your comfort is worse than any form of retrobolting."
Knowingly making others uncomfortable so that you can be more comfortable and calling it honest, peaceful dialogue is passive agressive.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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Could be, devil is in the details and we all have our stuff.
A person who exposed some serious abuse later regretted she did it with emotions that intended to punish her abuser, but she didn't regret letting the truth out nor renounce that she told the truth.
Should she have kept quiet? Waited until she could expose abuse with complete compassion? Sometime the sh#t flys and that's why the bad blood needs continual cleanup. They're still working on it.
Also, a lot of times we shut up because we fear bringing up something uncomfortable. How do we know? Some folks may be just waiting to clear the air about some past stress but don't know how to bring it up or figure it's up to the other guy. With the attitude of Love and Good will, most things that seem hard can be well received.
(Had to say I was sorry last night at a reunion gathering for a bad stock tip I gave to a high school buddy that wound up costing him $80,000. Didn't know if he had a negative charge about it and I'm glad to know he didn't)
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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In her shoes, assuming the abuse was pretty hideous...I'd probably hate the f*#ker that abused me till the day I died and hate anyone that told me that I should go heal my bad blood with my abuser.
If peace with everyone is what you seek to make you feel whole, then that is great FOR YOU.
Other people prefer a different path that is maybe harder (maybe not), but feels more honest and correct FOR US.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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Fair enough, Live with yourself and others anyway you choose.
Having the option of healing bad blood to consider is what this thread is about and I think sometimes folks need a reminder not to procrastinate it. No apologies for bringing up the subject.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Here's something I wrote about forgiveness awhile back, for those who might be interested in exploring the ins and outs of it.
Forgiveness
Many of us feel that when we forgive somebody, we’re doing them a favor. Perhaps they’ve changed, or apologized, or maybe we feel that we made them suffer enough.
The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver.
Every time we harbor an ill will, hateful feeling, or persistent negativity towards someone, we pack it away in a dark place within ourselves. This is a place of pain.
Many times we try not to think of this dark place where our wounds and angers live. That is called denial. Denial creates an obstacle to the honesty that we require to know ourselves. Denial can only exist by our maintenance of willful ignorance of reality.
Other times, we remember the wrongs done to us. We chew on the ill feelings about those who hurt us. We relive those negative emotions over and over, suffering the pains of the past once again. Suffering the pain of the past without resolving it needlessly multiplies our suffering in life.
The process of forgiveness liberates us in many ways.
First, facing and accepting the pain that we have endured in life empowers us to let go of it; to be free from the weight of our accumulated suffering. Witnessing the negative charge within us, without holding on or spinning it into a new drama, allows it to pass from us. Bravely facing our pains and judgments breaks the habit of denial.
Second, it is our imaginary idea of ourselves, the ego, which jealously and selfishly catalogs the crimes committed against us. We see the faults of others, and their transgressions, and gloss over our own.
By stepping back, we can witness the clinging and justifications of our mind. The ego’s brutal grasp on us weakens every time we release our pain and negativity.
The judgments we hold against others creates the framework for our judgments against ourselves. Taking the leap to forgive others releases negativity within us, and automatically begins to heal the grudge that we have with ourselves.
Change yourself and everything changes around you. Don’t take my word for it. It will be obvious when you do it.
By now, many people have been thinking of important objections to this whole idea of forgiveness. After all, many of us have suffered very real and painful abuse and nobody wants to line up for more. Let’s look at the devil in the details.
Does forgiveness mean we have to enter into relationship again with those we have forgiven?
No, forgiveness is an inner state of not holding on to negativity. If expressing that forgiveness will subject you to further abuse, don’t disclose it. Forgiving the violent ex-husband doesn’t excuse his actions, nor does it mean you have to take him back. It just means that you aren’t holding negativity within yourself anymore that ties you to those past pains and wounds.
We don’t have to resume sending money to the wayward daughter so she can finance her alcoholism. We don’t have to dismiss charges against the violent criminal so he can go find another victim. We can tackle muggers, speak out against injustice, and protect the weak and exploited.
How we deal with the various and complicated situations of life that evolve out of our decision to break free from our negativity can be inspired from our heart, with due consideration for all the factors involved.
Once we take out our emotional garbage, our feelings will give rise to intuition. Our minds will be free to take a less-biased view of the state of affairs.
There is often a middle ground in many situations. It’s often possible to have an amicable friendship and supportive custody relationships with an ex-spouse without re-marrying them. It’s often possible to work with difficult people without internalizing negativity about them but without accepting degrading treatment at the same time.
Miraculously, we often find that once the hatred is out of our own hearts, others can no longer sustain the negativity they have for us either. People who we assumed were rotten to the core are suddenly capable of humanity.
If it feels safe to express your forgiveness to the one you had begrudged, it can often be a liberating experience for both of you. Use your intuition and courage. Even if they don’t deserve it, sometimes especially if they don’t deserve it, it can start a chain reaction of transformation and grace that cascades into the world we live in.
When you see the potential for Love and kindness within another person, it summons the best in them to the surface.
Think about it. How many people who accept you without onerous conditions have made it to your enemies list?
If there are people who resist and hate those who unconditionally love them; that’s only because they are desperately clinging to their dark denial of themselves. They resent anyone who threatens to shine a light into their cherished oblivion.
Resistance to our experience is 90% of our suffering. The actual pain is just a small, bearable experience in the moment if we don’t hang on.
You may evolve your own process of discovering where your negativity lies and forgiving your friends and enemies alike. Here’s one way to get started with it:
For some, it’s painfully obvious whom they haven’t forgiven. If there is any doubt, still your mind and “intend” to discover which pains you are holding on to. Know your inner landscape and where the weeds are.
In a state of concentration and mental quietude, feel the emotions and reactions that come up when you examine the person and situation that needs forgiveness. Ask yourself if you are ready to let go of it. Just “Be” with it, for as long as it takes for it to lose its negative charge. Decide to let it go.
Don’t refer back to the ego and justify your anger or multiply your reasons for being upset. Watch it and let it be. Realize that humans are often weak, ignorant, and self-obsessed. It’s natural that we hurt each other, consciously and unconsciously, in countless relationships. We all have faults in the actions of our personality. Live and let live.
Recognize that the offending party need not always be a bad person. Free them to be better by releasing your hold on a negative concept of them. In doing so, you release your hold on a negative concept of yourself.
Repeat this process until the negative charge in your mind and heart regarding the person is discharged.
In the course of our lives and in nearly every human relationship, we experience and inflict grief and hurt, intentionally and unintentionally, in communication and miscommunication.
I’m sure I’ve upset many people over the years and I beg their forgiveness. I freely forgive all those who have hurt me.
The way to be free from the cycle of negativity is through forgiveness. Give it a try if holding on to your bad feelings isn’t serving you.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Threads drift and not every example is perfect.
Mellisa wrote
".I'd probably hate the f*#ker that abused me till the day I died and hate anyone that told me that I should go heal my bad blood with my abuser."
I think my writing above should clear up the idea that I'm suggesting we embrace anyone, no matter how negative they are. Searching yourself, you may find that having hate in your heart might limit you and hold you back. Maybe the abuser likes that you hate em, are attached to them in that negative way forever.
It's possible to decide to be free of hurtful things within yourself with going Kumbaya on folks doing people wrong.
But there is plenty of petty grievances in the climbing world where getting over things that were only once considered important is a worthy step. If they leave this world, it sucks to be left with unsaid words and bad vibes
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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"karl, you come across as self-righteous as an evangelist. so YOU have all the answers and everyone who doesn't agree with you is just lost?"
Would you have written that before taking up bad blood with me after feeling slighted by my remarks on the cryin time thread? See how hurt feelings just expand and get worse.
Don't know what to say T*R. I know that if we hung out face to face that we'd be fine together and also that you're not really on the side of keeping battles raging.
So how do we get over that? If you make an enemy every time your feelings get hurt, you wind up getting darker and darker. That's why so many older folks lose the spark that the younger folks still have.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Hi T*R
"only you had the answer and there was a reason why everyone else felt they did. me - not enough experience
climbers with as much or more experience as you - want the kids to walk through snow to get to school"
Maybe reread that thread T*R. I have my perspective but said in the end it didn't much matter if those bolts stayed or left. I asked you what your experience was to justify your position and you took it as a put-down.
Yet perhaps you had some experience. You said you hung out at Lembert. How would I know you haven't seen any anchors there? Of course it's relevant whether somebody has any experience about what they are talking about and it's fair to determine if they have it or not. Doesn't mean your opinion means nothing. Just stand up for yourself and admit it if you are speaking out of emotion or an experience you had elsewhere. You chose to take it personally and it wasn't so.
I think there may be some difference in the way women and guys argue. Some guys (like me) go about it in a way that offends some sensibilities and I apologize if that was the case.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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T*R wrote
"here we go again. kill me lol"
I can't kill you until we make up...Sorry!
;-)
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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But, do you have Feringi ears, Wolf boy?
T*R, I hope you know I think the world of you, but how did you Ever, come up with "only you had the answer and there was a reason why everyone else felt they did. me - not enough experience" ? That's so far offbase that I don't know where to begin. Karl, just 'don't got' that sort of ego....
email
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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I hate all your guts to pieces but I'm writing this as my homework assignment from my probation officer.
You read it here first on the internet. Must be true.
as for T*r, glad you aren't too bent. We've always got along and I'm cool with a disagreement over something now and then
PEace
Karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Karl, I truly appreciate your long post above, as they are words that echo excellent advice that I have followed with success. My own situation has required that I forgive huge autocracies perpetrated against me both deliberately and unwittingly. While not condoning wrongful acts committed against me, forgiving them allows positive feelings within me to flourish. In my life, I have found that repeated actions and thoughts become habits, and if they are positive actions and thoughts (like forgiving), positive (good) things happen to me, and I move forward toward my goals.
Sincere thanks for this thread.
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hooblie
climber
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this internet thing is sure a rough approximation of communication. it strips the nuances of shading and inflection which certain styles thrive on. sometimes on re-reading my own stuff after a few days i'm horrified at how it can be pitched two or three different ways.
the classic example that i carry with me is from a sat.nite.live skit from the three mile island era. in the control room of the nuclear reactor the boss takes off for vacation and emphasizes: "remember, you can't put too much water on a nuclear reactor!" upon melt down, the room divides into two factions at a complete impass, each equally certain on what the boss said, and so what action to take.
it might be that the kind of communication that heals, occurs at a vibration rate separate and apart from the verbal, let alone cyber-text.
although it seems quite capable of upbraiding, but i guess that's a different deal
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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"why do you have to forgive?"
Forgiving means getting the negative charge out of your own system. You don't "have" to, but it will make you freer inside.
"can't you just forget and move on?"
"Forgetting" to me, means putting the issue into a denial space where it festers inside you but it's still there. Not good for remaining a light and happy person in my experience.
"why focus on negative individuals?" You don't have to focus on individuals. Heal the negative space within yourself and have compassion for both yourself and others. Some folks you might want to make peace with due to negativity that needlessly remains over petty stuff or our human weakness. If somebody has really hurt you, they don't even have to know you forgive them. Just understand that there are people passing the pain they received onto you and free yourself from it so you don't pass it on yourself.
I probably stated it better in the essay on top of the previous page.
Some may want to recognize that they resent the suggestion that they get over pain and anger that they have been harboring. Understandable. Perhaps you have to be ready.
But watch your emotions from within and look at the sore points in your life, and there may be a time when you feel it's time to get free from the baggage we all take on with time and experience.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah, we can forgive.
But never forget .......
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MisterE
Trad climber
Meeteetse, Wyoming
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Unless you have Alzheimer's
or lead poisoning
or...
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WBraun
climber
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I think I have all those too ....
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WBraun
climber
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So? You want to become zero?
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MisterE
Trad climber
Meeteetse, Wyoming
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Ah, the non-being.
Curious subject, not attainable for the living, sadly.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I wrote:
"Part of being in a relationship, and whether we like it or not, most climbing partnerships are relationships, is being able to have frank and honest discussion when things go badly. If we can't have those types of discussions then there really is no relationship. "
To which Dingus replied:
"I dunno know about that. For a pure climbing relationship I think sometimes it may be best to let sleeping dogs lie. Sometimes avoiding a confrontation until the original issue fades like a single coating of white paint after a New England winter is the wiser (and easier) course."
Dingus,
When I said "frank and honest discussion when things go badly" I mean when things go really badly and you are facing issues which are, potentially, the difference between life and death and working together is critical for survival. Obviously, that doesn't describe the depths of every climbing partnership we have, but the potential has to be there to deal with problems rather than ignore them.
I am not trying to turn every climb into an encounter session, but I really do feel that if you feel your personal safety is at risk, you can't just ignore the situation.
Bruce
ps - I don't think Karl is being self-righteous. I think he has given this issue a lot more thought than most of us and has some very interesting insights. YMMV.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Its good you don't forget Rocjox, as u owe me a sixer.
I think Karl, whom I have never met, is probably about as level headed as they come and a straight shooter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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"I think Karl, whom I have never met, is probably about as level headed as they come and a straight shooter."
I appreciate the support and good words. Shooting straight is a tough one though, since we are complicated humans who can alternately be weak, strong, selfish and noble. Sometimes we get blind and by the time we open up our eyes, we've lost a friend.
I climb a lot with folks I'm not in a position to completely trust if things get "life or death" Perhaps they just don't have the skills yet, and so I have to chose those situations with those factors in mind since they are otherwise great people.
Shoot, we love our pets but they might bite our leg if we step on their tail.
When it comes to relationships, things really get wild. My best friend from high school married my ex-girlfriend who dumped me cause I wouldn't have kids. I could have been tweaked or celebrated that two close relationships were now in the same house and I could enjoy both of their companies. I chose to embrace them and it was great. I know a lot of folks in my hippy-dippy circle who have maintained great relationships with ex-partners cause they didn't let their ego turn everything into a negative story about them.
I've got a few private emails from folks whose families thrive on bad blood. We often thrive on power struggles and those close to us provide the drama.
Best and most honest is this: consider your own weaknesses and temptations and don't judge anyone more harshly than you can live up to in vulnerable times.
Consider the big picture too, just cause you can resist drilling a chicken bolt but can't resist sleeping with the married chick doesn't mean you can be righteous about one and make excuses about the other.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sometimes I think I've forgotten more things than i remember...
sometimes just the time, helps
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Remember the people in '100 Years of Solitude' who wrote out labels for everything, until they forgot how to read?
Menento rocked BTW, Have I told you this before?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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Monday Blood bump
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Karl,
Good thread. To my way of thinking, what really allows folks to mend fences when they are older is finally being at a point in their life that they are secure in who they are. When we are young and trying to find our place in the world, our feelings are easily heart. We take these strong stands on issues we don't fully understand, and when someone goes against that stand we are crushed. Some seem to never reach that stage, they stay insecure and easily offended.
You can try to bring opposing factions together to heal the bad blood, but if those factions haven't come to peace with themselves, they'll never be able to reach peace with others.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Paul,
don't rule out the dreaded mid-life crisis which can turn a seemingly reasonable person back into that young, insecure being of years ago. The climbing community seems to be unusually susceptible to this when one's climbing ability starts to decrease.
Bruce
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Like grecian formula, extremely you women, etc?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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Good thoughts Paul
It's funny how when we look at the "crimes" committed against us in life, many are really just affronts to our ego, our idea of ourselves. If somebody doesn't give us the respect feel we need, in the way we think we need it, it reminds us that we doubt ourselves and it hurts
If we accept ourselves deeply, other people can't threaten it so easily.
Thing is, most people, including us, are so concerned with our own selfish stuff, we don't even realize the extent that we're disrespecting others in their perspective.
I know that very few people really understand me and it's a constant effort to make sure I understand and am honest with myself even. Therefore, how to be offended when others misunderstand or act selfishly?
PEace
Karl
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Sarah Funky Fresh
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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My confession:
I went to a climbing gym that shall go unnamed where the owner treated my friend and me like sh#t.
We left feeling burned, so I decided to start a gym review section on my Web site where I told the world about her meanness.
I felt vindicated because she was unpleasant without provocation. What I didn’t realize until after pondering this thread was I was tapping into the same negative energy as her – I had become her. I did the wrong thing, and there is no vindication for that.
So I want to apologize to her and anyone who read that gym review because it brought negative energy into their day.
I have taken down the gym review section and replaced it with trip reports.
Thanks everyone on this thread that made me examine my actions and step up my game! After all, the point of my site is to provide a positive place for climbers, and I was the first one to violate my own intention.
Sarah Jane,
www.time2climb.com
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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""It is FAR more satisfing to leave your enemies in pieces than in peace." - ME."
Hi Rox
How do you know who your enemies are. You just said some critical things about me in your last post and if I was feeling sensitive I could put you on my sh#t list and start a process of dividing supertopo in the Baba-friendly and baba-unfriendly camps with a gitmo for Fatty even though he's nice to me...we don't agree.
But the thing is, I like you plenty and figure you have your own stuff like we all do, so i'm not taking it personal. (that makes me better see? ;-)
Where's it start and where's it end?
Sounds like you just want to be left to your own pain. If that stops working for you...
Peace
Karl
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L
climber
Somewhere under the Milky Way tonight...
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PEace Karl ;-)
My greatest lesson to date is the realization that you can't fight unconsciousness--just like you can't fight the darkness. You can only bring in the light.
You yourself do this with such simple beauty and integrity...and I feel profoundly gifted to be part of this community with you.
Thanks for your kindness, and thanks for sharing your spirit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Thanks L
Rox wrote
"Its genetic."
Genetically inherited recreational negativity is hereby excused during August in honor of DirtinEye, who likes to be grumpy now and then.
It's good to beware of how much inner satisfaction we get from blaming people and having enemies though. Not pointing that at anyone in particular but we all know folks (and maybe a bit in ourselves) that love to chew on some bitter leaves
Peace
Karl
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Rox if you could channel your angryness into climbing you'd be leading A5 and freeing 5.14
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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This thread reminds me of the Jesus at the Crags thread, but without all of the T&A.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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You might try to get a feel about what bugs you so much about this thread Melissa. Is there something you feel pressured to let go of but wont?
It's not the preachiness cause I think if I was pontificating about how we should maintain traditional climbing ethics with boldness and minimum bolts, you'd probably be saying "Amen!"
Peace
Karl
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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whoa, there's t&a on that thread? WhatamIdoin on this thread?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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Nice Rox
I seems like there are stages of experience, the experience itself, our reaction to it, and then the stories we spin about it.
Climbers engage in a sport thats full of pain. It would be hard to just sit there and inflict that level of pain (and fear) on ourselves. If that level of pain were inflicted on us, it would mean war, but it's all in good fun when climbing.
So our resistance to our pain is worse than the pain itself by a huge degree.
Maybe sour can be like that too. If we feel sour, it's ours to laugh about or to blame somebody about.
I have tons of martial artist friends who love to spar and climbing can feel like fighting too. Perhaps we use these things to exercise some aggression thing that's built into us.
Of course the difference comes if we carry our aggression and competition into wrecked friendships. family ties and relationships. I don't think we should ditch those things too easily or cause we like to fight.
PEace
Karl
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there karl and all... say, karl, as to this quote from some of what you said earlier:
"It's funny how when we look at the "crimes" committed against us in life, many are really just affronts to our ego, our idea of ourselves. If somebody doesn't give us the respect feel we need, in the way we think we need it, it reminds us that we doubt ourselves and it hurts
If we accept ourselves deeply, other people can't threaten it so easily.
Thing is, most people, including us, are so concerned with our own selfish stuff, we don't even realize the extent that we're disrespecting others in their perspective."
SAY----i have a younger friend, and i kind of mentor her, from a mother-point of view... and she has come to see these kind of situationss as you have mentioned....
she had come to see that there is a lot more peace in her life, when she is able to look at what she sees as a "personal attack on her ways" as under new light----she can learn from it more and see what is just a difference of oppinion or even just a simple misunderstanding... she just needed to keep her ego out of it, until she had a chance to study it from all angles...
say, she is growing up just fine, and i am so very happy for her... she makes less and less wrong calls and even when there IS one, she is forgiving and in the long run, the folks are even coming BACK to her, as peacemakers, as well...
*course not all the folks are, but she is learning that is part of life, too---and some parts of life, we are not to be pushing ourselves to feel that we "must control others" concerning it...
there day will come, so to speak, when THEY need to learn, and they will... until their own ways, bring them down... then, they'll be starting over again and perhaps someone, in kindness will be there, to help them back up...
but---the one that would have fell prey to personal ego, will have been able to get free, on their end, and teach some valueable lessons to others... their own kids perhaps, or who knows...
well---just sharling some stuff you reminded me about, as i do the "older grannie stuff" by helping out the next generation, so to speak... ;)
trying to be one of the "healers of bad blood", on the homefront... ;) intead of out in the ol' mountain crags, and rocky climbing trails, as you all are doing...
god bless... and good cheer to you all... :)
clean hearts sure make one feel good, when they get shuck of their old dry burdens... :)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Perhaps what bugs me, Karl, about the direction that this thread has ultimately taken is that I find page after page of your diatribe about peace and forgivess really hard to swallow after all of the backhanded swipes that you've taken over the years at me and my friends while always signing out PEace or similar.
Sometimes it seems like you are trying to buy indulgences with the long missives and self-bumped threads about peace and forgiveness.
When I challenged the appropriateness of grandstanding on a sensitive topic when others were atill struggling with it, you chose the provocative path of citing examples of abuse and disputes past along with page after page of how we should feel, what we should think, why we are wrong, and what the awful consequences of disagreeing with you might be. That sort of stuff seems more like the words of someone looking for peace and connectedness with onlookers...not words meant to heal a rift with the indivual being addressed.
I'm not advocating hate or bitter argument as a sport or goal. However, rather than looking for disingenuous peace, I'd prefer to just try to live decently, own the consequences of my missteps, and accept that there will be incompatabilities.
No doubt, partly I am also bothered because I strayed from my own chosen path of civilly ignoring or avoiding people that I know will bug me. I should have known better than to read a peace and love thread started by you, but I hadn't filled my day with enough interesting real life to stop myself. Shame on me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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I can live with that post, which is a reasonable perspective for you to have, even if I don't agree.
and in fact, it's not secret that I don't agree with your perspectives on climbing morals/style and such.
Sadly it seems a secret to you that I otherwise like you and your friends and that disagreement over things, even things important to you, shouldn't be a barrier to otherwise good vibes, for me anyway.
Regarding certain parts of your post, I'll answer via email
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Problem is, to take your life on the road and lay it on the line often enough to give a sane man pause takes a certain amount of conviction. When you get people with lots of conviction, you get a lot of convicts... haha. No but seriously, its all good in tha hood. Bolts, Beaks, Bashies, its all a lot of work anyway so lets just climb yah?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Funny how this thread's turned out, actually.
Curt
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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I think it's perfect cause that's the way things roll.
But I have made a definitive 3 minute video to address the concerns of my detractors
http://vimeo.com/3288510
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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I felt the need to bump this thread. More folks have left the crags since it went up. This is not about any specific people or events...Just that we all get things crossed and bad with many people over time.
and the time may be now to decide to bury the hatchet while there somebody to bury it with.
Peace
Karl
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hooblie
climber
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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karl, do you care to repost your vimeo thing?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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What Hooblie said.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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Dude, it was soo cool and perfect (I didn't actually do it) but it got pulled off the net.
IT was this Fake Buddhist Guy rappin about he was the baddest Buddhist, wiser than the rest, and had all these hot yoga chicks fawning over him. Very irreverent and even offensive to some but I thought it was hilarious
If it resurfaces, I'll link it for sure
Sorry
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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I'll be watching for it.
Meanwhile after reading back a bit, and considering our own need for entertainment, we need to put Karl and Melissa in the ring with boxing gloves.
I've got $10 on Melissa!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Any strong woman like Melissa would kick my ass for sure so I'll just bet $100 against myself and throw the fight so I don't get roughed up.
I'd like to respect her opinions and let them stand for themselves. No need to debate endlessly unless she feels otherwise. Agreeing to disagree is often a way that good people can have differences without always escalating into personal bad blood.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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I'm starting to feel some bad blood with DMT right about now but have to admit there's something there.
Heck, he's a movie star right?
Ok ok I love you bro
Karl
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