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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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"and right there- in that simple post, you just agreed with exactly what i just said, believe it or not."
Well, not really. Not at all actually. There might be some threads that bear some similarity although that's about it. The basic premise of which each of us are saying and the foundation we're making it from are pretty polar opposites. If that's how you interpreted it, it certainly wasn't intended that way.
No big. That's the great thing about America (as long as the fundamentalists don't get their way): everyone's free to disagree about what they believe.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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You have to be a petty, malicious and at loose ends with yourself to start ardentaly challenging another person's faith or beliefs. Like the man said, give the kids someting to eat, some little understanding and don't think they'd be better off by adopting your way of thinking. The smug are always losers in life.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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I actually brought up the gay thing with our 2 missionaries and they appeared to agree with me that homosexuality shouldn't be condemned, but discouraged.
I told them I disapproved of homosexuality but in the U.S. we are allowed to do things in our own lives that aren't condemned by the law of man, God's laws are somewhat more strict, hence my opposition.
However, condoning 'marriage' I completely disagree with, it's a spit in the face of religious people, and it offends me. That's me. They agreed.
But they also agreed that gays shouldn't be condemned by men, only judged by God. I agree. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll "rot in Hell", only that Mankind is flawed and some have different flaws than others.
As a society I don't think condoning gay marriage is good. It rots the soul of our society. Call it something else because it is something else. It is not the same!
Hossjulia, I mean no offense, please don't take it that way. May God bless your son. I really regret what he had to go through.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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Lived among them for more than three decades, most of my life.
Plenty of good things about them, sense of community, self-reliance, but there is a dark side too, and it gets swept under the carpet far too often rather than dealt with, and it is THAT that makes it so insidious. There is a monolithic mindset that takes over where mormons are a clear majority which, for lack of adequate caution (or worse), leads to sanctimony and intolerance.
Julia's story is all too common, and supported by countless of my own experiences.
Perhaps its only human nature, but so are other impulses that should be controlled.
If the LDS were less defensive and more open to dealing with these failings they would earn more of my respect.
If you had told me 20 years ago we would have an afro-american President I would be doubtful, but would anyone care to go on record with an estimate of when we will see a black mormon prophet?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Well said, Largo, and I told the two youngsters about this thread. They weren't surprised.
I told them of my belief that there are many paths to God, some call it Buddhism, other Judaism, and yet others call it Mormonism.
It's not the path you take, but how you take it that God watches.
And God probably frowns on many people who call themselves religious or righteous.
Religion is simple really, some just take it too far.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Matt, you really do take me for a fool, don't you?
Of course I realize that, I even told them as much. I made it very clear of my firm beliefs, which at their core are very similar to theirs, and my opposition to changing them.
But I did welcome their discussion. They seemed pretty cool about. One of them seemed like the 'seller' but he kinda held back after I demonstrated my opinions.
I know what their mission is. I have my own. Religious discourse.
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Dedicated young men respecting their cultural religious traditon. Yes, it is all based upon myth... not unlike most cultures throughout history...Their families send them off with pride and love. My question to you is this: what do you have to offer them? Beer? Wisdom? Do you know what is beyond yourself? Your earthly life?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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okie, yeah, I know. I did have beer to offer but they declined. What I also offered was my interpretation on the teaching of God. They seemed to enjoy the discussion, they appeared comfortable as was I.
Does there have to be something else? Do we need to have anal sex to truly 'connect'?
It's kinda of a f*#king stupid question considering the fact that you weren't there for the interchange. I think both parties left enlightened about each others' faith. And accepted it.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 27, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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C’mon. Religion has been treated with kid gloves for too long. Mormonism isn’t really any worse than any other religion. It’s just that 1820 wasn’t all that long ago, and it’s trivially easy to refute so many of the foundational claims of the religion. How are these claims any different from those of David Koresh or Jim Jones? Let’s just say that the Mormon religion had not yet existed and Joseph Smith, only today, began making claims about invisible golden tablets and the lost tribe of Israel (somehow making their way to North America) and the upside of polygamy. He would likely be committed to a mental institution.
I’ve known lots of Mormons. For the most part, they are good people. But that does not change the fact that the basis of their beliefs is a sham. Joseph Smith clearly made up the whole thing. He was a charlatan. Just because lots of good people believe this crap does not change the fact. Sorry if this seems mean-spirited. To me, this feels like arguing that the world is not flat.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 27, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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I give 'em serious contact highs......Fill the room with smoke, Howdy, COME on IN!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 28, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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You were visited by Elder Moffat, Bluering?
You mean to tell me they converted Jerry? Damn, never thought I'd see that.
Seriously though, religion shouldn't be about proof. It's about faith. Fighting too hard to prove things that weren't meant to be provable in the scientific sense only diminishes ones faith.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 28, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Faith, Schmaith......
Buncha frickin' magic tricks.
Do your Worst, GOD!
I dare ya.....Double dog Dare! or go away.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Careful what you ask for, Captain....
Again it amazes me how many people focus on debunking/criticizing Christian faith, yet give Hindus and Buddhists a free pass. Are Buddhist monks foolish brainwashed people too? How about Hindu gurus or whatever their called?
Especially liberals.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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blue- i was not thinking you were oblivious, i was stating the obvious.
largo wrote:
"You have to be a petty, malicious and at loose ends with yourself to start ardentally challenging another person's faith or beliefs. Like the man said, give the kids someting to eat, some little understanding and don't think they'd be better off by adopting your way of thinking. The smug are always loosers in life.
insofar as you are talking about blue-y and his 2 visitors, i am fine with that statement.
beyond that, taking a broader view of those statements- those in that faith, and the LDS which takes $ from those in that faith and tells them what to think and what to believe, they spent millions upon millions to limit the "fundamental rights" (CA supreme court) of certain citizens in california, a group who generally speaking takes no interest in mormon rights, or limiting of mormon rights.
there is petty
there is malicious
there is smug
and then there is simply honest
as greg says, wtf is with the kid gloves?
why should the religious get a blank check to be f*#ked when everyone else is somehow supposed to be nice? f*#k that man. i don't care how bad a climber you ever were, i don't care whether you wanna call me smug or petty, i am not down with respecting a group that wants to impose their woirld view on me or on people i care about, period. julia's is a horrible example, but good people, loving people, worthy people, they die a tiny bit every time they are forced to face the homophobia that the LDS (among other groups, it's true) promotes.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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"why should the religious get a blank check to be f*#ked when everyone else is somehow supposed to be nice? f*#k that man. i don't care how bad a climber you ever were, i don't care whether you wanna call me smug or petty, i am not down with respecting a group that wants to impose their woirld view on me or on people i care about, period."
I learned the hard way - and haven't mastered this yet but am working on it - that being "nice" has nothing to do with the behavior or beliefs of someone or some group. If my serenity, little that I have, is tied to internal or external circumstances, I'm basically hosed.
Such "detachment with love" is easy to preach, but very hard to do, IME. Being reactionary toward intollerent or biased folk is easy to do but renders a negative value - you not only accomplish nothing with the other folk (very hard for many to accept), but you whip yourself into a regular coniption.
I actually think people have perished from riteousness and "justifiable," and cause-driven or agenda-driven ire and self-imposed heartbreak. It's a closed loop that I have spent some time in - not fun.
JL
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 02:44am PT
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i remain unconvinced that whatever internal serenity i have (or may ever have) is in any way dependent upon being willing to accept the unjust, or being unwilling to call a spade a spade.
that said, i can respect a person for being a good parent, or for being honest, or for supporting (or trying to support) their family, or whatever else, and i can love someone for just being, but at the same exact moment i can call them out or hold them accountable for ignorance or hatred or bigotry. there is love in that effort, whether or not an observer chooses to see it that way.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 07:49am PT
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"i remain unconvinced that whatever internal serenity i have (or may ever have) is in any way dependent upon being willing to accept the unjust, or being unwilling to call a spade a spade."
You're missing the key here. A "spade" and the purported "unjust" are outside of you, whereas the key is to get unenmeshed from all that (not easy) and shift the focus to where you have some modicum of control - "over your own life."
Being powerless over other people's beliefs and behavior is difficult for an activist to accept -that's where the riteousness and ire come in, both self-generaed, though this s very diddifuclt to see. There's also some kinds of personaliy that need something to push off of (I'm prone to this). A rebel who needs a cause to feel alive. They've traditionally been the world's soldiers.
JL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 28, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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It seems to me that there really can't be any middle ground with a religon like Mormonism (revealed to a single person). Either god really did communicate with Mr. Smith or he made the whole thing up. If he made the whole thing up, it doesn't really matter what the content is.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 28, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Something that has come up time and time again in this discussion is that the "young men" are out on their mission. Never any mention of "young women."
Can any of the mormons among us (or any who are knowlegable about mormonism) clarify this? Why are women not out doing this missionary work? Is it a rule? Are there other mormon rules about the place of men and women, respectively, in society?
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Barcus
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, Ca.
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May 28, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Women go on "missions" as well.
A girl from my work just split for a two year treck.
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