Discussion Topic |
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 26, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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They hit me up on mountain bikes as I left the house on a beer-run. I talked to them and told them to come back tomorrow after work and I'll talk to them about religion.
I love this stuff as y'all know.
I even gave them some 'thinker' topics I'd like to discuss. They're going to double-team me tomorrow but I told them I may put them to work in my garage on my cabinet project.
They were cool with it.
I also told them I'm Catholic and have no inclinations on conversion or prostelytizing about 'their faith'. It's just Bible study time and their interpretation.
I did imply that beer would be served too!
Should be interesting....I love religious peeps! Really. The cool ones are really open to discussion.
I actually have a lot of respect for Mormons. It ain't easy being faithful and livin' the life!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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May 26, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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Go easy on them - they are usually some scared shiteless kid from OOtah trying to make it through their tour of duty in one piece.
I usually feed them if they agree to leave the religious BS at the door.
We mostly talk about skiing Alta.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 26, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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have you read "under the banner of heaven"?
get a copy and read at least the beginning, about the origins of the religion, and then ask the (with a straight face if at all possible) to either refute or defend those origins.
i would love to see it...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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I hear ya, Ricky, I just like talking religion and Bible stuff.
Matt, I'm not gonna challenge them directly. I'll tell them how I see sh#t and see what they have to say. And I'll listen to their story.
Yeah, I'll prolly be buzzed too!
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apogee
climber
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May 26, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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I'm not saying anything here.
Except that sh*t is whacked.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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May 26, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Ask them if they believe the center of the earth is hollow. My mormom cousins asked me that question a couple years ago and I told them "Why, of course. Everybody knows that".
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Matt, what is your point, your direct question to them?
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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May 26, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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You got to love those Pixes on bikes. I just bring up my cousin's husbands name (who happens to be be one of riches Mormons in Nothern Califorina and they leave me alone. They get on their bikes and ride away.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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May 26, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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we used to get a lot of mormons and j-witnesses come to our house when i was growing up. we had a looong walk way to get the front door, it passed my mom and dads bedroom window, my window, and my brothers window. we lived in rural escondido and had dogs so we always plenty of warning when someone was on our property.
Boomer would start barking like mad which would trigger John and I to peak out the window and see who was coming to ring our door bell. we would blast maiden number of the beast or some old sabbath or something else evil and giggle our asses off. on occasion, given enough time, one of us would answer the door in a black cloak that had an upside down cross sewn on the back. an old holloween custom from when John went as Alistair Crowley (sp).
classic brotherhood bonding memories....
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 26, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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ask them about the golden plates-
ask them where they were found and how long they'd been buried there before they were "revealed" to joseph smith by an angel-
ask them what language the plates were written in-
ask them about who "translated" these golden plates-
ask them if all the tales of joseph smith having been a bit of a con man are just smears.
...and then ask them why, in the book of mormon, there is so much reference to technologies which did not exist (horse drawn carriages, forged metals, etc.) in the eras supposedly being described, but DID exist in the time of joseph smith, and how any logical person would explain that.
ask them about the mormon version of the spread of humans across the globe, and about the enormous battles in north america-
and then ask why there is no evidence of these (apparently huge?) early societies or their amazing battles, even though we have so much evidence from other human populations in north america.
i could go on and on...
it's just like trying to disprove the bible in literal terms, only there is no 2000 yr gap to make it all seem vague...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 26, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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I have cousins who are Mormons, and many friends and former law partners and associates who are LDS, but I'm an evangelical Christian. I love my Mormon friends and relatives greatly, but religiously, we have irreconcilable differences.
One time, I let the missionaries try their spiel on us. The two cyclists came with a more senior member of the local congregation (stake? ward? I can't remember.) The more mature gentleman proceeded to say how God revealed his truth to righteous men, and asked my then ten-year-old daughter what she thought. Her reply: "What about that Matthew person? Was he righteous?" They had no response.
John
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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I hear ya Matt. The Joseph Smith thing is kinda weird, but whatever...That's why I wanna talk to them. These guys are early 20's, maybe mid.
I just like talking about the stuff. Maybe I'll invite my redneck motor-head buddy over who is Anglican, he's actually better versed in scripture than I. And he pretty cool, we've talked to Mormons before, an Anglican Christian and a Roman Catholic...if you got something better on a Wednesday night, let me know.
Hey Khanom, it's nice you think I'm stupid and brainwashed to have faith. I wonder if you'd say that to a Buddhist Monk or a Muslim Imam?
Maybe it's just white Christians who are stupid, especially males!
Nice, John! These called themselves 'elder'. Whatever, like I said, I will have a coversation with them. I love the discussion. And I already told them, they're gone if they start preaching. I really 'hate' that...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 26, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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"Ask them if they believe the center of the earth is hollow. My mormom cousins asked me that question a couple years ago and I told them "Why, of course. Everybody knows that".
Perhaps your "mormon cousins" have been watching too many Pat Boone movies from mid twentieth century, Mr Lugar. There is no LDS doctrine stating the "center of the earth is hollow".
(Or is every Hollywood science fiction movie and every Jules Verne novel also now included under the popular gossip paradigm of “what those whacky Mormons believe”? )
Just the same, I bet you and your cousins had fun playing Journey to the Center of the Earth. Dodging boulders, giant lizards and falling stalactites sounds almost as fun as climbing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Nice, is this how to get my favorite gal back (other than Mimi and LEB), by bringing in the religion?
Yesssss! Hi Jennie.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 26, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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Hi, Bluering.
I'm not in the same league as Lois or Mimi but a mormon thread usually baits me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Roger that, Jennie.
It'll be an interesting discussion tomorrow, I was thinking of web-casting it. I got the camera but I don't know if it's a good idea...on many levels.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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May 26, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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I feel bad for the guys going to Salad's place.
"Man, I'm really excited to make some more Witnesses!"
"Whats that noise?"
SIX! SIX! SIX! THE NUMBER OF THE BEEEEAST!!!
I know a few mormons, SUPER cool people. Its a shame their church is, uh, crazy. But good people, at least in my parts. I hear some not-so-good stuff from Utah, but they fuggle sheep there, so there ya go.
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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May 26, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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I am from Utah and I was raised Mormon in one of the most close knit super conservative bubbles of Utah known as Cache Valley. Many kids I grew up with and went to school with are now leaving for their missions (they leave for two years at the age of 19 for those of you who don't know). The thing about Mormons in Utah is if you're a young man who isn't going/hasn't been on a mission call you're pretty much a untouchable. A situation I face now. So most of these kids I know are going on missions rather they feel its their calling or not just for the fact that it is what is expected of them and if they want to marry a nice Mormon girl and function in these communities. Alot of them aren't "worthy" and have done things that if were disclosed to the LDS church they wouldn't be serving on missions but, they go because they're "supposed to". With that said you'll know who is out there for the right reasons or not when they start doing there thing.
If you want to make them comfortable I would suggest not offering them beer nor drinking it in there pressence. If that was your intent be prepared to belectured. (Besides they're probably underage)
They don't mind being put to work but their tactics are to do your labor in exchange for you going to an LDS meeting or something like that.
They are very, very persistant and can be very, very stubborn with their ideals.
They live off a set ammount of money their families send every month, it is very little, they live in shitty housing don't get to eat much besides at church functions. They do have cars but have very strict milage quotas so they ride bikes and walk everywhere so be careful or they will eat you out of house and home.
They're uptight because, they can't watch T.V., listen to music that isn't of the religious nature, Go swimming, show interest in women and, many other things we all enjoy. Only get a few hours of week to themselves and that is to prepare lessons and such.
I'm not telling you to hear them out or treat them like heroes. I'm not mormon. I'm just saying they're scared little boys that are pretty much stripped of humanity right out of highschool and believe me it makes them really strange and awkward guys. Hopefully your pair are good ones and you'll learn something.
Cheers let us know how it goes.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 26, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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I just tell 'em,
"Wait a minute! I have to go find my magic spectacles."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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Choss, I hear ya. If they want to talk Bible and religion on MY PROPERTY at my invitation, they do so under my terms or they're free to leave at any time.
Rules at My House:
1. Consume anything you want, just be cool, be sober (mostly).
2. Any discussion is fair game! Play or leave at will.
3. Don't be a bitch! (Anybody but the host being an obvious obnoxious, violent, or disfunctional person). You'll get asked to leave!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 26, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Toying with Cultists can be fun......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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A lot of odd rituals, a very strong head of church that lots of rules flow down from, funny clothes, tithing, lots of odd rules (what with the no meat on Friday?), asking for forgivness, holy water, a whole bunch of stuff that is almost identical if you ignore that you have been taught that Catholics have 2000 years of tradition and that Mormons don't.
The psychology of the two reigions is really close.
Oh, you make them sound so appealing. Rocky's right and religion is BS and dead.
How do you feel about Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam? Each one.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 27, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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Is it true that mormons on their mission are on a restricted caloric intake ? I've heard that they are...
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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May 27, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Why don't you show them the love of Jesus?
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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May 27, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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bluering,
good on you. you don't need to be an ass like a lot of the previous posts.
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spot
Boulder climber
Atascadero,Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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saw this video a couple of years ago. It's a classic - Extreme Mormons!
http://vodpod.com/watch/49573-extreme-mormons-with-john-safran
Disclaimer - I have the utmost respect for the LDS. Worked with many "mormons" and a brother in-law and his family are LDS. Some of the nicest people you will ever meet. Just not my belief - I tend to be Methodist/protestant.
Discussions about religion are great as long as it's for education, otherwise it's divisive and I haven't seen a religious discussion here on supertopo where sh#t hasn't been flung. Let's play nice!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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I knew I'd get the Mormon bashers out...
I'm still waiting for a religion basher to condemn Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism also, hyprcrites! F*#king predictable. That's why the Atheists get a little respect from me, at least they're consistent and follow some (misguided) logic and reason.
And what about those Jews, huh?
Discussions about religion are great as long as it's for education, otherwise it's divisive and I haven't seen a religious discussion here on supertopo where sh#t hasn't been flung. Let's play nice!
Uh....exactlty!!!!
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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May 27, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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Well, why don't you?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 27, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Ask 'em about the secret underwear, And getting their own planet.......I bash all religion, equally.
A little ritual is good for morale, but I lead Skully.
Have fun.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 27, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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hey i am not bashing per se, i am just saying that either some guy a couple hundred years ago made that chit up, or else all the rest of you religious types are way off base, because the book of mormon is the true word of gawd...
simply put- there ain't no middle ground.
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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PaganMB: I'm not sure if they have a restriction on their calorie intake or not. I'll ask my mom tomorrow, she will know or will call my grandpa (A LDS Bishop) and find out.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 27, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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Isn't the idea of not allowing Mormons to marry in California interesting. Of course such a ban is not based on religious ideas as that would be unconstitutional but based rather on secret and bizarre rituals they may or may not be performing as so called married couples in the bedroom.
Everyone knows that one makes a choice to be a Mormon; it is a lifestyle after all, a choice, and there are aspects of their activities that are directly prohibited in the old and new testament, just ask any Orthodox Christian.
I understand that there is a constitutional amendment proposed as a proposition on the next California ballot that would prohibit weird Mormon bedroom rituals and send all Mormons back to Weirdtah.
Great idea, don't ya think?
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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May 27, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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I find repugnant the Mormon tradition of keeping their women ignorant. I remember from trips to City of Rocks that on trips into town for supplies that the people working in the stores were 16 year old girls.
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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May 27, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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I wonder if the mormons are pissed because a Lamanite is Pres?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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May 27, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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This is shaping up to be interesting! On a slightly different related note... I read some older climbing rags about a guy named Aaron Shamy who used to climb some pretty hard stuff a few years back but he was Mormon and went to do some mission work for a few years... Did he ever get back into climbing or what? I always wonder what happened to some of those dudes in the back issues of Rock and Ice I dig through at the gym...
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Ashcroft
Trad climber
Washington, DC
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May 27, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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bluering, I hope you enjoy your conversation.
I don't want to get into a big religious discussion, but I generally think Mormons are pretty good people. I was born in Cache Valley and even though I'm fairly lapsed myself, I still have a lot of respect for a lot of those people.
I think bashing the Mormon religion because its main book of scripture is unbelievable misses the point. The basis of my belief was simply that I felt like being Mormon was good for me - made me a better person. After a while I didn't feel that way and stopped participating. The miraculous story of the origin of the religion was never the basis for my belief, just something I didn't get too hung up on because I valued the other parts.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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and even though I'm fairly lapsed myself, I still have a lot of respect for a lot of those people.
This is my whole premise, my bruthas, I think many of you respect the wrong people. Respect people and their benevolant beliefs, don't necessarily buy the dogma, buy the package and what's inside, or disregard it. God loves ya, even if you're stubborn like me.
Just be nice...mostly.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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May 27, 2009 - 01:52am PT
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Eric Beck said:
"I find repugnant the Mormon tradition of keeping their women ignorant. I remember from trips to City of Rocks that on trips into town for supplies that the people working in the stores were 16 year old girls."
Wow! I've never heard of this tradition...tell me more about it.
My 16 year old daughter works at a trendy restaurant chain. She's learning a good work ethic and is saving money to buy her first car. For 3 years she's been a straight A student.
Pretty strange huh?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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Aleister, the liberal party is wayyyyy more fascist than the conservatives. Look at social/national defense policy.
They'd dictate what speech is to be regulated/controlled?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 01:57am PT
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WTF?
I'm speechless......
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 27, 2009 - 02:13am PT
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What was that quote? Climbing would be the greatest thing in the world if there wasn't all that climbing.
Mormons would have a fantastic organization if it wasn't for all the religion.
Unreal community support, healthy lifestyles, well tracked geneology, etc. are all great. They lose me with the tidings and secreat underwear though.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 27, 2009 - 02:36am PT
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“ask them about the mormon version of the spread of humans across the globe, and about the enormous battles in north america-
and then ask why there is no evidence of these (apparently huge?) early societies or their amazing battles, even though we have so much evidence from other human populations in north america.”
“i could go on and on...”
Perhaps you could to enlighten us about “evidence” we have of “amazing battles” in classical western history; say, Thermopylae and the 300 Spartans. There is pitifully little evidence that a battle with 2.5 million participants happened there. And what little archeological evidence that has been found, well, we knew WHERE TO LOOK.
Basically, the “enhanced” story was written by Herodotus, who was a democracy junkie and was ushered in as “Father of History”, by the west after 1850, even though he was heavily criticized by other classical historians such as Plutarch. The story is easy for the west to buy into: 300 brave Spartans saved Western democracy from 2.5 million evil Persians. But aside from the fanciful numbers which need decimal-point adjustments, there are consequences to believing such a biased account of history.
There is no archeological evidence of slavery in Persia, yet slavery was firmly established in Greece. The “evidence” does not back up Herodotus. Yet nonsense like the following is printed in the New York Times:
“the defeat of a ruthless state (Persia) that had enslaved much of the known world from the Balkans to the Himalayas.”
“the ancient Greeks defeated the Asian invaders (Persia) and saved Europe in what scholars call one of the first great victories of freedom over tyranny”
 William J. Broad,
(NY Times)
Yes, throw aspersion on the Book of Mormon for lack of “evidence”, while remembering there is a notable lack of evidence for many events that the west accepts as historical fact.
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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May 27, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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When was it that horses were introduced into North America?
When was it Joe Smith was riding around on them?
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 02:59am PT
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"
Mormons would have a fantastic organization if it wasn't for all the religion.
Unreal community support, healthy lifestyles, well tracked geneology, etc. are all great"
Perhaps Mormons outside of the high concentration areas that I grew up in are different and I can see that being the case but, I actually have to disagree with the community support being so great. In my experience the areas are broken up because the super "faithful" people or families that have members in higher callings within the churches governing bodies are complete elitists and look down upon other folks even other members and they refuse to have anything to do with each other. There's also alot of gossip and lies that are spread within the women members and I've seen it divide entire wards (congregations). Since moving out of Utah and into a small town in a state with no dominent religion I've felt a much stronger sense of community. This is just my experience though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 27, 2009 - 06:06am PT
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We will be looking for a full trip report. I imagine that they looked at you and sized you up as a full hippy, this could be interesting...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 27, 2009 - 06:15am PT
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Significant quantities of figurines and toys with WHEELS going back as early as 200 BC have been found in the New World. Would Indians have fashioned them without understanding their significance in a larger, more utilitarian sense ?
Again, because they don't see full size samples of wagon or chariot wheels, these individuals (in the anti mormon link) assume they didn’t exist in the New World. What if many wheels were made of wood? Wouldn’t they likely have decayed away over the centuries?
If wheels were not in use, why did Indians in Peru and Yucatan build extensive smooth roads, some over seventy miles long?
Crude potter’s wheels have been found in New World. Is it logical the ancient Indians understood use of potter’s wheels but couldn’t figure out using wheels to move a load ?
These pre columbian pictogram and sculpted pieces are on display at National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. What do they represent ?
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StevenJ
Trad climber
Mill Valley CA
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May 27, 2009 - 06:34am PT
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Hi Bluering,
Thanks for being willing to show the missionaries some respect and cutting them some slack. As a current Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I work with the missionaries every week and I know that they are earnestly trying to make the world a better place. They work very hard and its not an easy thing for a 19-21 year old sharing a message that is not always popular in this area.
As a former dirtbag climber (once a dirtbag, always a dirtbag?) I understand the feelings a lot of people in the Supertaco neighborhood have about the Church and why its not for them.
That being said, have some fun with them, they can take it and tell them Bishop Johnson says "Hello".
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 27, 2009 - 08:20am PT
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two comments -
1) I've heard that missionaries are on a reduced protein intake while also forced to walk and ride bikes everywhere. I'd like to know if this is true, as it is one of the fundamental steps in brainwashing.
2) I met a former mormon female out here with a masters in english. She was never taught numbers in her small town school, as being a woman she 'wouldn't be needing to know them'. She told me this is very common in small town utah.
If *either* of these allegations are true, that tells me all I need to know...
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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May 27, 2009 - 09:27am PT
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1) I've heard that missionaries are on a reduced protein intake while also forced to walk and ride bikes everywhere. I'd like to know if this is true, as it is one of the fundamental steps in brainwashing.
Not true, funny comment nonetheless.
2) I met a former mormon female out here with a masters in english. She was never taught numbers in her small town school, as being a woman she 'wouldn't be needing to know them'. She told me this is very common in small town utah.
Generally not true, although it could be an isolated incident. The big city has it's own issues...crack addicts, gangs etc.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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Dingus hits the nail on the head. My exact feelings on this thread.
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Kartch
climber
belgrade, mt
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May 27, 2009 - 10:20am PT
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I've heard that missionaries are on a reduced protein intake while also forced to walk and ride bikes everywhere. I'd like to know if this is true, as it is one of the fundamental steps in brainwashing.
While I was on my mission I had to start telling people that I was allergic to chocolate so I could skip dessert. I didn't have time to work out and all the food people gave us made me jump 20 pounds. Driving around in a car all day did nothing for this so I chose to limit my food intake in order to maintain a healthy 175 pounds.
2) I met a former mormon female out here with a masters in english. She was never taught numbers in her small town school, as being a woman she 'wouldn't be needing to know them'. She told me this is very common in small town utah.
I grew up in Blanding, UT (population 3,000). I think we had more females in AP Calc than males. I couldn't tell you for sure I was in Algebra II trying to meet the minimum requirement to graduate. Maybe I didn't need to learn my numbers and figures and such so I could farm and breed, or maybe it was my ADD and intense need to skip classes.
Someone else mentioned the overweight members of the Church. I think Utah's average BMI is less than the national average but I've never understood why some who claim to abide by health guidelines of the LDS church would look down on someone enjoying an alcoholic beverage while they slam their 5th twinky.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 27, 2009 - 10:30am PT
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Jennie, that may be the convinient party line about the Persian wars, but there's a lot more out there than Heroditus and there's plenty of archeological record.
The difinitive battle happened at sea. Athens was sacked and burned by the Persians. Lots of arceological record for that. There's plenty of first hand accounts as to how Persian and Helene societies worked. Even Troy from Homer tuned out to be real and accurately described.
Socrates students even wrote a history and political analysis of every single Greek city state. Only the one on Athens though survives other than small fragments.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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May 27, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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DMT,
Can you give an example of the events you speak of?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 10:52am PT
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Bishop Johnson, I hear ya. I'll tell them you said hey!
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mike
climber
I have no clue
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May 27, 2009 - 10:59am PT
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So Bluey, what do you expect to get putting them to work on your cabinet project?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 27, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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"It doesn't have to be doctrine to be a fundamental belief of one's religion. Here's a few that believe in fairytales. I for one stopped playing "Journey to the Center of the Earth" at around age 10. Don't get me wrong, fantasy is really fun, but you have to deal with reality at some point in one's life."
Mr Lugar,
Again, I'm refering to authentic LDS doctrine and what LDS general authorities teach and mainstream mormons believe. You'll have difficulty finding significant numbers who believe the hollow earth theory. The overwhelming consensus, among mormons, is that the lost ten tribes were carried north and assimilated into other peoples and nations. If those tribes appear from a crack in the earth's crust, Mormons will be as suprised as you.
If one or several lay mormons propose an uncommon theory, are you sure you want to smear it on the entire membership ?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 27, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Lots of cool, climbing by blanding, even after Jello broke one of the crags there. I put up a12b ow that is still prolly awaiting a second ascent
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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May 27, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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"If those tribes appear from a crack in the earth's crust, Mormons will be as suprised as you."
LOL.
"If one or several lay mormons propose an uncommon theory, are you sure you want to smear it on the entire membership?"
Yes. (J/K..I did see only about 4% of mormons believe in this theory. Give it time, it may gain more popularity!)
"The overwhelming consensus, among mormons, is that the lost ten tribes were carried north and assimilated into other peoples and nations".
Or, more likely, eaten by Canis Lupis!
Edit: Where Jaybro? At the center of the earth?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 27, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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"Jennie, that may be the convinient party line about the Persian wars, but there's a lot more out there than Heroditus and there's plenty of archeological record. "
Thanks for the reply TGT. I'd love to hear more "evidence" of this amazing battle. (Yes, I'm aware of the parallel naval conflict)
From my post:
"Perhaps you could to enlighten us about “evidence” we have of “amazing battles” in classical western history; say, Thermopylae and the 300 Spartans. There is pitifully little evidence that a battle with 2.5 million participants happened there."
In context, where is the plentiful evidence of 2.5 to 2.7 million participants, the 300 defending Spartans and that the battle unfolded as Heroditus described? I don't doubt there WAS a battle and I'd rather like to believe Heroditus' "account", but in my view it takes......quite a leap in faith.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 27, 2009 - 11:57am PT
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ok jennie-
i'll bite.
i believe the religion is a sham, i'll say so outright, no offense intended to you personally.
if you want to pretend to have an adult conversation about all of this, let's skip the wheels for now and cut to the chase. i will grudgingly offer some of the respect you seek here if you thoughtfully answer the following questions, no posting of links- your words only.
thanks in advance...
was joseph smith, or was he not, accused several times of being a con man, BEFORE the book of mormon was revealed to him?
was joseph smith, or was he not, totally into pretty young women (and when i say "young", i mean it!), ad was his 1st wife (or was she not) upset about all these "young women" (girls, maybe?) he would "marry", so that he could seduce them with as little backlash as possible?
which of the most prominent historical figures in mormon history had only one wife?
(and which did not make that list?)
what did those men, on that list, ALL say/believe about polygamy?
and so why did the mormon church (supposedly) renounce polygamy?
and so why are those (political) influences more powerful than the words of, and examples set by, the most powerful ad significant figures in mormon history (what little of it there is), especially considering the many well documented records of their many statements about the fundamental necessity of the act of polygamy?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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Mike, I expect they'll wanna talk Bible stuff. I told them that's fine, that they can cruise by while I'm working in the garage. I said they could help if they liked and they seemed enthused.
Does there need to be more?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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They come by our place. We live on hill above a very Hispanic hood so the missionaries are geared towards converting recent immigrants- they occasionally drift a few blocks above their intended habitat and end up on our street. I always offer water and a snack.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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"bluering, I hope you enjoy your conversation.
I don't want to get into a big religious discussion, but I generally think Mormons are pretty good people. I was born in Cache Valley and even though I'm fairly lapsed myself, I still have a lot of respect for a lot of those people.
I think bashing the Mormon religion because its main book of scripture is unbelievable misses the point. The basis of my belief was simply that I felt like being Mormon was good for me - made me a better person. After a while I didn't feel that way and stopped participating. The miraculous story of the origin of the religion was never the basis for my belief, just something I didn't get too hung up on because I valued the other parts.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. "
Good post.
I think a lot of people find religions that way.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 27, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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So far 3 people on this thread indicated they were born in Cache Valley. If they spent any time there, they would certainly have some insight as to the practices of the church (note lack of capatalization).
I wasn't born in the Cache Valley. My ancestors were some of the original settlers back in the 1800s. I was born and raised into the Mormon church - son of strong pioneer stock on both sides of the family. I moved back to Logan, UT for a couple years after I left the religion (early 20s). That gave me an interesting perspective - an insider on the outside, looking back in. Man did it seem strange to me.
I have nothing against Mormons. Some of my best friends and almost all of my family are still strong practicing members. I am courteous to the missionaries. I've known hundreds of them over the years. They are just young kids trying their hardest to do what they were raised to believe. I just don't happen to believe as they do.
Bluering - enjoy your time with them. Most of them are really good guys. The questions you ask them during your bible study time may challenge them to look at things from a different angle, maybe for the first time.
For all you who would jump on their beliefs, challenging Joseph Smith, golden plates or the timing of the invention of the wheel, just remember this: This is all most of them have known. If you had been taught since birth that something is true - whether it is Mormonism or that the sky is green - that is your truth. If you challenge those beliefs directly, the only thing you do is send them away thinking: "That poor deluded man. How could he be so wrong?"
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 27, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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"...... if you thoughtfully answer the following questions, no posting of links- your words only."
OK...my words...
"was joseph smith, or was he not, accused several times of being a con man, BEFORE the book of mormon was revealed to him?
I'm aware of some accusations although the weighty accusations came after the Book of Mormon. How much significance should we place in unsubstantiated ACCUSATIONS, especially those promoted by Protestant clergy who saw him as a rival? He was in his mid teens when knowledge of the plates were given him. If guilty, was he a con child, con teen or con man?
Have you been accused of spurious activity by members who didn't appreciate your message, here or IRL ?
I was accused of being Jody (sniff). Yes, I had it easy
How much weight do you want to put on unproven accusations ?
"was joseph smith, or was he not, totally into pretty young women (and when i say "young", i mean it!), ad was his 1st wife (or was she not) upset about all these "young women he would "marry" (so he could seduce them with as little backlash as possible)?"
It's a matter of record that Emma Smith was unhappy with Joseph taking plural wives.
Being "totally into pretty young women" is a figure of speech. Being "totally" absorbed in one persuit precludes activity in other persuits. In my opinion, that doesn't describe Joseph who was very multi-faceted. Was he attracted to women? Yes, I doubt he followed a polygamous life entirely as "sense of duty."
Seduce is a strong word, however. There isn't a tangible case for Joseph having sexual relations outside of LDS marriage. He was married to all wives at the consumation of sexual relations. Seduced? What tangible evidence exists that these women were maneuvered or entered into marriage against their will? The mormon marriage ceremony is heavily grounded in freedom of agency doctrine.
"which of the most prominent historical figures in mormon history had only one wife? "
(and which did not make that list?)
John Whitmer had one wife. He was a Book of Mormon scribe for and one of the "Eight Witnesses."
Martin Harris took one wife after the death of his first wife who later left him and took her children west after his excommunication . He was one of the "Three Witnesses."
"what did those men, on that list, ALL say/believe about polygamy?"
Which men are you refering to?
"and so why did the mormon church (supposedly) renounce polygamy?
The prophet Wilford Woodruff was given a revelation and commanded to discontinue the practice as it was no longer expedient and shown what would happen if it continued. In early church history the female converts outnumbered the male. However, as the younger generations had grown to adults and the male to female ratio became approximately one to one, polygamy was no longer feasible socially ---it's continued practice would result in some men having no wives.
Incidently, two thirds of the families in the Utah Territory were monogamous. The popular belief was and is that most marriages were polygamous. Not so...
The popular U.S. belief for Mormons discontinueing polygamy was to allow Utah to gain statehood. Actually, Brigham Young had wanted a separate and independant nation from the U.S. named Deseret. Most authorities agreed in the beginning but the general mormon population believed material prosperity would follow membership in the United States.
"and so why are those (political) influences more powerful than the words of, and examples set by, the most powerful ad significant figures in mormon history (what little of it there is), especially considering the many well documented records of their many statements about the fundamental necessity of the act of polygamy?
I don't believe the political forces were more powerful than words of mormon leaders, although there were a number of authority figures who spoke beyond their authority on the matter of polygamy. This "fundemental necessity" for polygamy was in fact a temporary necessity borne of material necessity, such as the existence many unmarried women with little means of support. While some of Joseph's wives were young, some were older. some of Brigham Young's wifes were older than he.
It's said that many of these polygamous marriages were never consumated, but I suspect most were. Joseph Smiths son stated that he believed most of Joseph's marriages were, in fact, consumated.
Polygamy is not enthusiastically regarded by mormon women and some fear it's return. But that is doubtful, in my opinion.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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RKM,
I'm not sure if your vague statements about the Mayans and Mormonism were intended to suggest some confirmation of LDS teachings or the lack thereof. Somehow, I think that was intentional.
In any event, the problem with Mormonism, like most historical religions, is that aspects of them don't hold up to scientific scrutiny. I'm a Catholic, and while there's plenty of confirmation that there was a historical figure named Jesus, that doesn't prove what Catholics and other Christians believe that this same person was also the son of God, etc.
Still, having said that, Mormonism has it's own set of problems. The Book of Mormon describes lost tribes in what is now Central America. However, the breadth of DNA testing of the world's peoples confirm no genetic connection with the people who now live there and the area their ancestors, the lost tribes, alleged originated from. Combine that with the other issues people have raised about Joseph Smith the person, the breastplates Umin and Thumin, etc., etc., and the historical basis for LDS looks pretty thin.
Ultimately, however, this is all about faith. Ultimately, I try not to judge people on what they believe, but who they are as a person. I can't legitimize beating up on a mormon for what they believe if he or she is a good person any more than I can justify supporting a Catholic who's an a-hole.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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May 27, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
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I met some very friendly Mormons in Dublin Ireland.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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May 27, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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What I find kinda funny is that anyone would look at Mormons and think their beliefs are weird. I mean, compared to the standard "Christian" stuff what are a few golden plates, magic glasses and the rest of it worth? From the outside most deity-based religions are pretty much off the "Yep, that sounds logical to me" place in my mind. Plates, resurrection, symbolic ritual cannibalism, it's all kinda whacky stuff when looked at from the outside. So is climbing, but it makes more sense somehow.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Echo Parque, Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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It's all weird. People are weird. Whaddya gonna do?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 27, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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I mean, compared to the standard "Christian" stuff what are a few golden plates, magic glasses and the rest of it worth?
No kidding. Anyone who uses virgin birth as the foundation for a religion should think twice before calling someone else's beliefs weird.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 27, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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I'll just go make up my own weird cult.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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May 27, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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Word Gilwad. Most religions have wacky myths.
Blue, if you're looking for stimulating discussion you may be disappointed. I spent an hour with two missionaries when I was 19 or 20. They had a three-ring binder with color illustrations of events from the Book of Mormon, and as they flipped each new page they explained the picture from memory. Every time I posed a philosophical question, they quickly brought it back to the program they were presenting. I could never pry them off the script. I didn't see any evidence of original thought or broader understanding of spirituality or man's relationship with God. It was all about the wacky stories.
We didn't get to the end of the binder because I had to end it at 3:58. Star Trek was on at 4.
I think most religions demand blind faith in the myths and dogma and discourage questions about where you fit in the universe. From what I know of Judaism (not much), it might be a notable exception.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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"No kidding. Anyone who uses virgin birth as the foundation for a religion should think twice before calling someone else's beliefs weird."
Well, yeah, some aspects of every religion are going to look kind of wierd. I was continually amazed by climbing friends who totally bagged on Christianity and other western religions while totally drinking the kool aid on eastern religion and all the dancing woo li master stuff which, if anything, is even more fantastic. In part, it's just what you're comfortable believing.
Still, I'm continually amazed, really amazed by people's hang up with the whole virgin birth thing. If you believe, as Christians do, that God created the universe or at least set the clock in motion, then virgin birth is going to seem anti-climatic in comparison, the total piece of cake, blindfolded, both hands behind your back kind of trick. It's really a non-issue. It is to me at least.
Even if you could establish that there was never a virgin birth, it wouldn't change the basis of the religion. People would still believe. I think that issue is pretty identical to what the priest running Notre Dame commented about the whole DaVinci Code issue of whether Christ and Mary Magdelene were married. He thought it was totally possible. If it were, he thought it would probably give Christians a much healthier perspective on sex and marriage.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 27, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Where it gets us is back to one of the basic principles on which this nation was founded. Freedom to worship as we please. We can debate the benefits of various religions til the end of time - at least in this country we can choose to worship (or not) the God of our choosing.
It may be God...it maybe "something else", but it is our choice and our belief. The reason we seek someone or something to believe in , IMHO, is that we are all deeply flawed individuals - we are human.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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DMT,
Note that I said "every" religion, so of course it's going to apply to mine.
In terms of the virgin birth thing, I discussed that in the context of the more commonly held belief about God's supposed creation of the world. I've talked with lots of people who could get their head around that but not the virgin birth thing. That's what I find perplexing. It seems like the scope of one makes the other seem minor in comparison. If you get my point, great; if not, no biggie.
Also, though you choose not to believe in seemingly any religion, that position doesn't provide you with much authority to intercede in a discussion among those that do. Simply saying that everyone's myths are equally implausible doesn't really bring a lot to the table. People have been studying this stuff for thousands of years and there's a substantive body of literature discussing these issues at length. To disregard that vast body of knowledge
just
doesn't
work
either.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 27, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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So someone wanted to take an oath with his hand on the Koran....so what? Yeah, some people take offense to things like that. All should remebe that the document that allows you the freedom to worship as you please gives that right to others. When you attempt restrict them, you also restrict yourself. Would it be less offensive if his hand was on Roper's green guide?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 27, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Almo is such a small town that until recently they would have been hard pressed to get 150 people to show up for a parade. Before the City of Rocks was made into a "Moneymint" the boy scout troops would come in and empty the burn barrels of garbage a few times a year, and the COR was a major source of tourism for them, that THEY ran. Now a days there is NO trash disposal.
Thank the Feds.
City of Rocks is actually managed by the Idaho State Department of Parks and Recreation...and is run by local folks. Some, several generations local...
Had a Sierra Nevada beer in Almo on Sunday, from a local establishment. The place is so oppressive...ha ha.
Missed ya, RKim, but, heard tell you were around. Ran into a few of the locals, caught up on some gossip, dodged the rain a bit, climbed a bit, then bailed for home.
COR is still a major source of tourism, judging by two places that sell beer on Sunday and the new hotel and B&B's that are popping up (not to mention the old hot springs that's re-opened). Still pretty small, though. Nice spot.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 27, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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It seems like the scope of one makes the other seem minor in comparison.
Quite so. It's just that the first (the "god created the world" part) is common to many religions. The second (the "virgin birth" part) is the fork in the road where christianity turned off as judaism continued onward.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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May 27, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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I did not read the whole thread, I apologize, but I had to say some thing to the OP.
As far as I am concerned, being raised Mormon is what killed my son last year.
I let him go with his father and new wife when he was 2 because I thought being raised in a family setting,instead of by a single Mom, would have been better for him.
I was so, so wrong, and it cost him, and me, dearly.
(I know I can't second guess fate, but it hurts.)
He was gay. In hind site, it was obvious when he was a little boy.
He was also deeply religous and believed the crap he was told growing up, like gay people are the devil himself.
So he tried to suppress it and then tried to hide it. He tried to kill himself with pills. And alcohol.
I just kept telling him that something must be amiss, he was not living his life truly, and he needed to figure that out.
He finally found true love, and told me he was gay and living with the person of his dreams.
I told him he had no obligation to tell his Mormon family, and warned him what would happen if he did.
He so wanted to live his life honestly, without hiding, and to be accepted by his family.
He told them all at once at Christmas dinner. (That took balls)
His step mother made the sign of the devil and shunned him. His grand mother kicked him out of her house. They told him he was evil. (My hands are shaking writing this)
GOD DAMNED the Mormons! And I mean that.
He shot himself last fall.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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May 27, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Any one claim on its own is sorta, maybe possible even if it is ridiculous. Virgin pregnancy? Happens in fish sorta, but I probably wouldn't believe my daughter if she used that line. Put all the stories together, and, well, nope, doesn't work.
I'm not attacking Mormons or Christians specifically when I say it all seems really weird from the outside. I'm saying that every deity-based religion, along with the eastern "woo" looks very weird to me. I get that same sorta feeling thinking about LDS or Baptists or whatever that I first had as a kid when I figured that Santa Claus had to be about 36 inches across the middle at least, and our fireplace chimney was about ten inches. That was the beginning of the end for Santa Claus, and the same thing happened with every religion I've banged into over the years. Kinda weird, not making any sense with what I see of the world. I still celebrate Christmas 'cause you gotta give it up for a fat guy who can get down a skinny pipe, no?
Edit: And I posted this message before reading the post above. Sorry to hear of your loss, can't imagine that. While I try to keep it light when talking about religion the core of my feeling is much closer to your words than the lightness I wrote my words with, sorry. Blind faith is an evil thing even when cloaked in "goodness."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 27, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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I know at least a few methodist ministers who don't buy the virgin birth thing, they treat it, as I do, as poetry. does it gotta be literal? Why?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 27, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Wow hossjulia, I'm so sorry to hear about that.
My wife says I can be hostile to religion, but I'm not. I think it's a good influence in many people's lives. What I am hostile to giving dogma preference over truth, reason, and justice with tragic results such as what happened to your son.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 27, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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Julia,
I am so sorry for your loss. The pain of losing a child is one that none of us should have to bear. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Scott
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 27, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Dingus,
The language has been described as "Reformed Egyptian".
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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The Book of Mormon. The mormons made up the term "Reformed Egyptian" (the term exists once in the Book of Mormon) to create a new fictional language known only to Joseph Smith. I don't think he taught it to any of his 27 wives.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 27, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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so the caloric intake thing is a new one to me too - i just heard it last week from a coworker from montana that had some interesting things to say about the religion...
but the discrimination against women - sorry but this one i see every day out here. nothing is worse except your story julia, which i've heard more than once. i've met a *lot* of people shunned by their families because the church tells them they must.
I think that is evil. i wish i could say more. i can only imagine...barely...
In all honesty though - it should be no secret i consider almost all of this to be imaginary friends and far, far older rituals stolen from the more phenomena based religions - ie spirituality instead of specifics and proper names. you do note the main ritual in all the jesus religions is canibalistic, right ? eat me, drink my blood ? it will save you...
way back when we used to dance around the fire and just be thankful all this just plain *is*. it's a f*#king miracle ANY of this is here - yer gonna tell me you know the proper names and the how and the why, when all i have to do (you too, believe it or not...) is just open my f*#king heart and the truth pours into and out of it ? this is not rocket science people, and i'm not going to kill you over different names for the same things. sounds like a lot of balls on anyone's part.
now play nice. please. just play nice. why why why do NONE of the big religions get this ? how f*#king tough is this ?
and this is the same conversation i have with steve, my buddhist nazi friend (but tom, we are the *one true religion*, that's why i'm so sure...yeah, sure steve. you told me once to kill you if you ever said half the things you just told me, biotch...), so don't take it personally ;-) i might sound rather anti-mo, but only because it's in my face out here and i'm not living in, say, the vatican (isn't that one of the richest square miles on the planet ? what would jesus say bout dat, homie ?)
now everybody hug,
-the good reverend pmb
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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May 27, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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.The Muslim congressman from Minnesota surely strained the fabric of the Constitution when he requested to be sworn in with his hand on the Koran "
Any one who complains about should know that it was Thomas Jefferson's Koran that he used.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 27, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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julia- sorry, how brutal.
dingus- soldier on, brotha.
to religious people in general:
how can YOU not SEE that your religious traditions, to the extent they seek to label YOU as somehow being the chosen few among all humans on this huge planet (and that's not to mention humans in the past?), are simply playing to YOUR COLLECTIVE EGO, and your interest in being special, being saved, having hope, having answers to the questions (mostly surrounding mortality) that all people, now and before, are likely to wonder about?
all religion is but a crutch, something to lean on in tough times. is that so bad? no- of course not. if you want to acknowledge it as somewhat of a figurative framework of moral concepts that you feel helps you cope, makes you a better person in your family or in your community, one whose myths and tales teach us all invaluable lessons, good for you- more power to you!
but when ya'll start to be willing to accept all those literal details (which in the case of a 200 yr old tradition are all right there on the surface), you're simply saying that what you believe trumps whatever all the people in every other religion believe, as well as what every past religious person has believed, and what many people in the future are bound to believe.
if you REALLY want to know about mormonism- then honestly, just go study something other than what the LDS says!!
(it's painfully obvious as all hell that they are marketing to you as a group, offering ever evolving explanations, changing doctrine, dismissing what they can't get away with, claiming to have never really meant what they used to say about whatever it was anyway...)
otherwise, ya'll are just mentally advanced sheep, clinging to whatever the sheep herder says to do so you can be safe, and it's clear that you have no true intellectual curiosity whatsoever.
joseph smith?
he was a salesman.
he was a womanizer.
he was a con man.
he made up a religion, he sold it, he married 30 chicks, and he was the man. right up until they killed him, how very martyr-ish of the poor guy!
ever wonder why the religion spread in america?
go read some of what the LDS doesn't want you to.
jennie-
no more polygamy?
even ratios?
not hardly baby, not hardly.
keep the women dumb, kick the men who don't conform out, bingo, polygamy. maybe not on your block, maybe not in your town, but it's all shades of grey, it's just in the shady shadows, where you all can claim you don't see. simple enough to take an honest look tho', you just can't look it up on any LDS website...
(btw- pretty convenient to just fall on the "that's not church doctrine" line, but let us all remember that mormonism long held (holds?) that god can give revelations to anyone (ANYONE!), and that polygamy, while not officially sanctioned by the primary body that says what goes, was LONG a part of the program, which was primarily why mormons sought out desolate and isolated parts of the western US to settle, and lastly that there are PLENTY of people (mostly women and girls) suffering out there from the social residues that linger. simply stating, "it's not sanctioned by the LDS" doesn't address all the people out there in the sticks who call themselves mormons and yet don't limit their beliefs and practices to what the LDS officially states as it's doctrine- and yes, that pattern is a clear vestige of the religion itself, specifically it's use of personal revelation as a component of it's appeal- so very helpful in drawing new converts, and it's past in general. sorry but you don't get to just neatly pretend all that is not mormonism also...
btw- same basic rant (obviously specifics vary) goes for every other major organized religion on earth, past, present, and future. sorry if that offends, but it's true. my very most favorite part is all the religious types claiming to be so humble!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! humble enough to be willing to say (or at least imply) that the few who agree with them are right about the BIG questions while the many who disagree are wrong...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Elder Bailey and Elder Moffat just left, seemed like really nice guys. Not really preachy either. I may have come off that way though but we all seemed to agree on most things.
Religion is awesome!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
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Matt,
You make a lot of generalizations about what you believe the religious think. Keep in mind that every statement you've made has been made countless times before. I used to think that religion was for those who looked to the sky and couldn't handle the big void and had to invent something to fill it. I made the same arguments 25 yrs. ago but I've changed my mind since then.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not about being right or wrong. I don't know if I'm right or I'm wrong (unlike you). I'm not smug enough to know if I'm saved. Heck, I don't even know if there's an afterlife or whether everything just ends. I don't even think that the God I believe in is going to throw anyone into hell. I only follow what I believe, and that's really just a hope. Faith isn't a rationale decision. It's like love. It's totally irrational but something that your heart and your gut tells you is true.
Someday you may buy that belief, or you may not. The rants (because let's face it; that was a rant, not argument) and the capitalization aren't going to change anyone's mind who's already made that leap.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 27, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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and right there- in that simple post, you just agreed with exactly what i just said, believe it or not.
(i did edit it slightly while you were posting)
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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May 27, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Mark Twain said of the Mormon Bible:
"If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle. Keeping awake while he did it, was at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out of the way locality, the work of translating it was equally a miracle for the same reason. "
more...
http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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Funny because these guys never mentioned any of the crap you guys are spouting about Mormons. We just talked about morality, living well, being supportive of family, and trying to live like Jesus would have wanted us to live.
Y'all are getting stuck on the minutia.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 27, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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What if you're not religious....what if you are just a jesus follower ?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 27, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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bluey- that's called a soft sell
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Hossjulia, I'm sorry about your son. Nobody should be demonized like that.
That's horrible!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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"and right there- in that simple post, you just agreed with exactly what i just said, believe it or not."
Well, not really. Not at all actually. There might be some threads that bear some similarity although that's about it. The basic premise of which each of us are saying and the foundation we're making it from are pretty polar opposites. If that's how you interpreted it, it certainly wasn't intended that way.
No big. That's the great thing about America (as long as the fundamentalists don't get their way): everyone's free to disagree about what they believe.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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You have to be a petty, malicious and at loose ends with yourself to start ardentaly challenging another person's faith or beliefs. Like the man said, give the kids someting to eat, some little understanding and don't think they'd be better off by adopting your way of thinking. The smug are always losers in life.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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I actually brought up the gay thing with our 2 missionaries and they appeared to agree with me that homosexuality shouldn't be condemned, but discouraged.
I told them I disapproved of homosexuality but in the U.S. we are allowed to do things in our own lives that aren't condemned by the law of man, God's laws are somewhat more strict, hence my opposition.
However, condoning 'marriage' I completely disagree with, it's a spit in the face of religious people, and it offends me. That's me. They agreed.
But they also agreed that gays shouldn't be condemned by men, only judged by God. I agree. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll "rot in Hell", only that Mankind is flawed and some have different flaws than others.
As a society I don't think condoning gay marriage is good. It rots the soul of our society. Call it something else because it is something else. It is not the same!
Hossjulia, I mean no offense, please don't take it that way. May God bless your son. I really regret what he had to go through.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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Lived among them for more than three decades, most of my life.
Plenty of good things about them, sense of community, self-reliance, but there is a dark side too, and it gets swept under the carpet far too often rather than dealt with, and it is THAT that makes it so insidious. There is a monolithic mindset that takes over where mormons are a clear majority which, for lack of adequate caution (or worse), leads to sanctimony and intolerance.
Julia's story is all too common, and supported by countless of my own experiences.
Perhaps its only human nature, but so are other impulses that should be controlled.
If the LDS were less defensive and more open to dealing with these failings they would earn more of my respect.
If you had told me 20 years ago we would have an afro-american President I would be doubtful, but would anyone care to go on record with an estimate of when we will see a black mormon prophet?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Well said, Largo, and I told the two youngsters about this thread. They weren't surprised.
I told them of my belief that there are many paths to God, some call it Buddhism, other Judaism, and yet others call it Mormonism.
It's not the path you take, but how you take it that God watches.
And God probably frowns on many people who call themselves religious or righteous.
Religion is simple really, some just take it too far.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Matt, you really do take me for a fool, don't you?
Of course I realize that, I even told them as much. I made it very clear of my firm beliefs, which at their core are very similar to theirs, and my opposition to changing them.
But I did welcome their discussion. They seemed pretty cool about. One of them seemed like the 'seller' but he kinda held back after I demonstrated my opinions.
I know what their mission is. I have my own. Religious discourse.
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Dedicated young men respecting their cultural religious traditon. Yes, it is all based upon myth... not unlike most cultures throughout history...Their families send them off with pride and love. My question to you is this: what do you have to offer them? Beer? Wisdom? Do you know what is beyond yourself? Your earthly life?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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okie, yeah, I know. I did have beer to offer but they declined. What I also offered was my interpretation on the teaching of God. They seemed to enjoy the discussion, they appeared comfortable as was I.
Does there have to be something else? Do we need to have anal sex to truly 'connect'?
It's kinda of a f*#king stupid question considering the fact that you weren't there for the interchange. I think both parties left enlightened about each others' faith. And accepted it.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 27, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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C’mon. Religion has been treated with kid gloves for too long. Mormonism isn’t really any worse than any other religion. It’s just that 1820 wasn’t all that long ago, and it’s trivially easy to refute so many of the foundational claims of the religion. How are these claims any different from those of David Koresh or Jim Jones? Let’s just say that the Mormon religion had not yet existed and Joseph Smith, only today, began making claims about invisible golden tablets and the lost tribe of Israel (somehow making their way to North America) and the upside of polygamy. He would likely be committed to a mental institution.
I’ve known lots of Mormons. For the most part, they are good people. But that does not change the fact that the basis of their beliefs is a sham. Joseph Smith clearly made up the whole thing. He was a charlatan. Just because lots of good people believe this crap does not change the fact. Sorry if this seems mean-spirited. To me, this feels like arguing that the world is not flat.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 27, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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I give 'em serious contact highs......Fill the room with smoke, Howdy, COME on IN!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 28, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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You were visited by Elder Moffat, Bluering?
You mean to tell me they converted Jerry? Damn, never thought I'd see that.
Seriously though, religion shouldn't be about proof. It's about faith. Fighting too hard to prove things that weren't meant to be provable in the scientific sense only diminishes ones faith.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 28, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Faith, Schmaith......
Buncha frickin' magic tricks.
Do your Worst, GOD!
I dare ya.....Double dog Dare! or go away.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Careful what you ask for, Captain....
Again it amazes me how many people focus on debunking/criticizing Christian faith, yet give Hindus and Buddhists a free pass. Are Buddhist monks foolish brainwashed people too? How about Hindu gurus or whatever their called?
Especially liberals.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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blue- i was not thinking you were oblivious, i was stating the obvious.
largo wrote:
"You have to be a petty, malicious and at loose ends with yourself to start ardentally challenging another person's faith or beliefs. Like the man said, give the kids someting to eat, some little understanding and don't think they'd be better off by adopting your way of thinking. The smug are always loosers in life.
insofar as you are talking about blue-y and his 2 visitors, i am fine with that statement.
beyond that, taking a broader view of those statements- those in that faith, and the LDS which takes $ from those in that faith and tells them what to think and what to believe, they spent millions upon millions to limit the "fundamental rights" (CA supreme court) of certain citizens in california, a group who generally speaking takes no interest in mormon rights, or limiting of mormon rights.
there is petty
there is malicious
there is smug
and then there is simply honest
as greg says, wtf is with the kid gloves?
why should the religious get a blank check to be f*#ked when everyone else is somehow supposed to be nice? f*#k that man. i don't care how bad a climber you ever were, i don't care whether you wanna call me smug or petty, i am not down with respecting a group that wants to impose their woirld view on me or on people i care about, period. julia's is a horrible example, but good people, loving people, worthy people, they die a tiny bit every time they are forced to face the homophobia that the LDS (among other groups, it's true) promotes.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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"why should the religious get a blank check to be f*#ked when everyone else is somehow supposed to be nice? f*#k that man. i don't care how bad a climber you ever were, i don't care whether you wanna call me smug or petty, i am not down with respecting a group that wants to impose their woirld view on me or on people i care about, period."
I learned the hard way - and haven't mastered this yet but am working on it - that being "nice" has nothing to do with the behavior or beliefs of someone or some group. If my serenity, little that I have, is tied to internal or external circumstances, I'm basically hosed.
Such "detachment with love" is easy to preach, but very hard to do, IME. Being reactionary toward intollerent or biased folk is easy to do but renders a negative value - you not only accomplish nothing with the other folk (very hard for many to accept), but you whip yourself into a regular coniption.
I actually think people have perished from riteousness and "justifiable," and cause-driven or agenda-driven ire and self-imposed heartbreak. It's a closed loop that I have spent some time in - not fun.
JL
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 02:44am PT
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i remain unconvinced that whatever internal serenity i have (or may ever have) is in any way dependent upon being willing to accept the unjust, or being unwilling to call a spade a spade.
that said, i can respect a person for being a good parent, or for being honest, or for supporting (or trying to support) their family, or whatever else, and i can love someone for just being, but at the same exact moment i can call them out or hold them accountable for ignorance or hatred or bigotry. there is love in that effort, whether or not an observer chooses to see it that way.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 07:49am PT
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"i remain unconvinced that whatever internal serenity i have (or may ever have) is in any way dependent upon being willing to accept the unjust, or being unwilling to call a spade a spade."
You're missing the key here. A "spade" and the purported "unjust" are outside of you, whereas the key is to get unenmeshed from all that (not easy) and shift the focus to where you have some modicum of control - "over your own life."
Being powerless over other people's beliefs and behavior is difficult for an activist to accept -that's where the riteousness and ire come in, both self-generaed, though this s very diddifuclt to see. There's also some kinds of personaliy that need something to push off of (I'm prone to this). A rebel who needs a cause to feel alive. They've traditionally been the world's soldiers.
JL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 28, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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It seems to me that there really can't be any middle ground with a religon like Mormonism (revealed to a single person). Either god really did communicate with Mr. Smith or he made the whole thing up. If he made the whole thing up, it doesn't really matter what the content is.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 28, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Something that has come up time and time again in this discussion is that the "young men" are out on their mission. Never any mention of "young women."
Can any of the mormons among us (or any who are knowlegable about mormonism) clarify this? Why are women not out doing this missionary work? Is it a rule? Are there other mormon rules about the place of men and women, respectively, in society?
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Barcus
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, Ca.
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May 28, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Women go on "missions" as well.
A girl from my work just split for a two year treck.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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There are interesting questions raised here per what to do with, say, a gay bashing group, if that is indeed your group. Or use any group of any kind. An activist will strive to set things right, pushing off the negative group with all his might, telling the world the "truth" about the group, et al.
I'm begining to think that the best way is to show tollerence toward the group in the hopes it will rub off on them.
But I don't know . . .
To me, the Mormon angle seems based on a pretty sketchy cosmology, but that cosmology is not something people actually live - it's merely an idea that tends to drive behavior to some degree.
It's all pretty complicated, but I think the intention of most Mormon missions is - beyond recruitment - aimed at pretty decent goals.
Why do Mormons get married so young? Is it the no sex thing?
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 28, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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I am a christian, i feel pretty strongly that jesus was and is out there trying to help us get allong. All that is well and good but organized religon is completely and totally fcked up. I don't know much about the other religions but I do know the bible is a big book of lies that were tweaked allong the way for political and personal gain to the point where it little resembles what jesus or god probobly intended.
Did you guys know that the catholics put the rule in there about priests haveing to be celibate way back in the middle ages because the priests were makeing too many babies and the church was tired of getting stuck with the bill for all those dependants. Thats right folks the good right wingers up in the vatican figured if they outlawed marrige for priests they cut cut way down on their health care and retirement pensions.
That law has absolutly NOTHING to do with gods wishes, it was clearly just the church trying to cut down on overhead.
Too bad the whole thing backfired and now they are stuck will all those sexual abuse lawsuits..
Still seems pretty clear that the mormoms organized religon is right up there in the front of the race when it comes to fabrication and lies used to control their constituants though fear, laws and ritual. Dosent mean that mormons or catholics are not good people it just means that they are misguided if they believe all the crap in their holy books.
Its fine to believe in your god but it is folly to believe all that other mortals have written down and claimed to be true about your god.
YMMV
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 28, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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Circumcision optional?
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originalpmac
Trad climber
Ouray, CO
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May 28, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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we thought of a good bumper sticker that would definitely get you pulled over and arrested in the wrong places, but we thought it was funny. "Give Utah back to the natives, put Mormons on reservations."
and I will now probably catch some flack from some uppity PC types, but who cares.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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JL-
i do see your good intentions and i respect your thoughts (may not have sounded like that earlier).
here's what i think-
the GOP took mad advantage of the evangelical christian right and their organized, motivated voters. then they gay bashed to save their own skin in the 2004 elections (anti-gay-marriage measures in critical swing states drove up turnout in their targeted communities). look where that allowed the bush/cheney cabal to take the country and indeed the world!
now look at prop.8 and the LDS involvement in funding it.
religious interests from out of state using real people's real lives, here in our state, to fight a battle about imposing their so-called values on everyone else, via the political process.
in light of both of the above, i just don't see a world in front of me where those of us who may disagree with the so-called values these groups seek to impose ought to quietly sit by and just "respect everyone's beliefs equally"- after all, THAT"S NOT WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!
they are highly organized, well funded, and actively, constantly recruiting (thus the genesis of this very thread!). these are groups of people whose religious traditions are apparently leading them to actively try to limit the rights of many of my fellow americans. these are groups of people who seem, from my perspective, to be very highly prone to adopting a point of view that is dictated to them by the body that controls their organized religious tradition, which in my opinion does not lead to individuals thinking critically.
they want our whole culture to conform with their beliefs.
i do not.
they believe their actions are righteous.
i do not.
all that said- it's not about "ire". i believe i can love another and still call their belief system to the carpet. i believe in honesty. i believe in truth. i believe in love. they all go together. pretending is just that. i am not living in anyone's bubble, and i am not supporting anyone living in a bubble. when nobody speaks up, it just sounds as if everyone agrees.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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jennie-
too bad that angel wanted those pesky plates back!
why do you think that was? such a shame...
do you think he just wanted to give all the rest of the world's religions a fair shake? it's almost like in "scary movie", when they poke fun at the predictability of horror movies.
just imagine if their were a God, and only one God, and that God really wanted everyone on Earth to know it. would you do it via some golden plates buried on a hill side, if you were that God? and then, would you grab the plates back? why are these God types everywhere so damn cryptic? why do they plant a false fossil record to test us? why does all the DNA work for so many interesting and important stuff, but then pretend to disprove the really important stuff!?!
i mean really, if you just created the whole universe, including the marvelous diversity and beauty of all of life on earth, in all its complexity, couldn't you do better than some shiny plates in the mud in upstate new york?
(ever been to upstate new york?)
why not have a miracle every week?
why not make all the diseases go away?
why let peoples have wars at all?
and why be so damn cryptic in the 1st place...
seems a little silly when you think about it.
but no more so, i suppose, than letting your believers and non believers fight it out for centuries and even eons, only to send your son back on a 2nd visit to judge everyone, and then punish everyone eternally who was unconvinced by those who attempted to act as that God's messengers (even including potentially horrible, child raping messengers), but i digress...
edit-
and why let people all over the world worship other gods for thousands of years? weren't you God the whole time? who was this Zeus as#@&%e? didn't that bug you at all? and what about in asia and africa? why didn't you "reveal yourself" to ANY of the dark skinned people you'd ceated 1st???? are they less human? less your "chosen people"? isn't that the implication? honestly? why hide from these glaring facts?)
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 28, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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To the question of women serving missions: Yes they do. And they are not the only ones. There a are a fair number of retired seniors who serve missions as well. They may be widows or widowers, or they may serve as married couples. My mother (70+) would like to serve a mission. She and my step father will likely do so if they can resolve some health issues.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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May 28, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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bluering, if you get around to it, I've got a question they might have the answer to, and if so, come back and post it:
Ask them if god eats, and if so, what does he eat?
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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May 28, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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Never forget the Mountain Meadows Massacre!!!!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 28, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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"JL-
i do see your good intentions and i respect your thoughts (may not have sounded like that earlier).
here's what i think-
the GOP took mad advantage of the evangelical christian right and their organized, motivated voters. then they gay bashed to save their own skin in the 2004 elections (anti-gay-marriage measures in critical swing states drove up turnout in their targeted communities). look where that allowed the bush/cheney cabal to take the country and indeed the world!"
What I've been trying to get across in this and other threads is that the "Bush Cabal" was the last dying spasm of old, Eurocentric, white, male, conservative policy that almost overnight became not so much disempowered, but irrelevant. It might take the population decades to catch up with the new shifts, but the old white, male, conservative paradigm will never regain dominion here or elsewhere. Those old values are not sustainable over the long haul. Too greedy and myopic. Too much emphasis placed on power and retaining a fixed and secure venue and too little on embracing the unknown.
Imagine how quaint it will seem in a few decades that California once voted against gay mariage and that a black president seemed a freakish departure from the old white guard. Even now, just months after Bush was shown the door, he and his staff seem light years away, like shards of a nightmere. Anyone remotely resembling GWB has no chance at credibility, nor yet true power, in today's world.
JL
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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May 28, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Ever see "Orgasmo"?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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i would counter that gay marriage proponents also thought it was unlikely they'd loose, or need to ramp up a significant organizational effort in order to win, in today's california.
i would counter that the ever consolidating corporate television media still seems primarily right leaning, and that is a big boost to the rights hopes of resurgence.
i would counter that another terrorist attack is going to happen, the only question is when (2 months/ 2 years/ 2 decades/ 200 yrs?), and the fear mongering will be back in full force after that, wait and see- hell cheney still does it today, and certain people eat it up. will we again be torturing whomever we think looks like a terrorist?
(what if someone flys a plane into a packed NFL stadium, or a packed nascar race stand? today is just one day, it may mean nothing tomorrow)
finally, you cannot live where i live or where you live and expect to have the pulse of the whole country. things that inspire you may be upsetting others, and the opposite may also be true.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 28, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Not so sure that Obama is secure as the new paradigm, but he is one cagey fellow making Jon Huntsman, Governor of Utah the new Ambassador to China.
Huntsman is ONE white male (mormon) who might actually challenge him in 2012.
Instead, because the guy speaks mandarin, he recruits him across the aisle.
Very cagey, this guy.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 28, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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"Still some discussion about me running for congress in the 10th CD."
please......
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 29, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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Dingus said: "I will agree we are seeing the last dying gasps of the Boomer generation - a generation that once offered so much promise but ended up cocking things up badly, blaming everyone else, over spending by trillions on self-indulgence (I don't count myself out of this group btw) and passing the bill to their grandkids. This spans all ideologies and is a trait of the Boomers themselves... do like we say, not like we do."
There you have it. It's astonishing that we boomers "cocked things up so badly," and yet there are those who are still looking to aging, conservative white doods to clean up their own mess, as others still are talking about a resurgence of the old guard, or at any rate, those waving their flag. This boggles the mind . . .
Dingus added: "largo I wouldn't count out the aging white male dynamic till the X generation has had their spell in the command seat for a while. Let's see if they really ARE different. I think the millenials ARE different (mine certainly are) in terms of racism, I just don't know about the xers yet."
Of course they are not different in terms of basic nature, but their zeitgeist is not limited to conservative, hetero white males who were masters of the world from post WWll to about 1998, cherry picking and in many instances plundering resources, jobs, etc. (virtually always for theselves) till the cupboards were well nigh bare.
Most of all, when I reflect back on all of this, I am very saddened that my generation let avarice, selfishness and power mongering tank our coffers, our credibility and our capacity for rigorous self reflection. Accountability, the hallmark of soul and self worth, is almost totally lacking amonst the old white guard, addicted as we are to blaming everyone else.
JL
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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May 30, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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the rest of the story, so you know that I know there are good people in the LDS church.
I did not go to his service, for fear of what would be said and what I would do, but mostly because I was just not ready. (I had 3 days notice)
I would have been surprised, it was paraphrased for an article and I got to read it.
The bishop said a lot of good things about my son, he knew him, and then stressed to the crowd that only God (the Lord, they never say G-O-D) can judge, and that we have no idea the workings of God (the universe to me) and that we should caution against judging others at all for any action. Something about you can never walk in another mans shoes. He also felt that my son was in God's hands and not forsaken. This means nothing to me, for I do not believe that dogma, but it meant a lot to me that me seemed to be sticking up for him and his actions. No condemnation, no praying for his soul and forgiveness, none of that. Indeed, he asked everyone to pray for their own forgiveness in this situation.
It renewed my faith that there are good folks in that church, and that perhaps some are trying to make a difference.
I personally believe, and have for far longer than I knew my son was gay, that people are born that way. They are not made that way by man, they are not flawed, they are not immoral, they just are. And most would rather not be. But you can not make your self something you are not. (not gay) that would be living a lie and IMHO, leads to mental health problems. Massive mental health problems.
I use God loosely here, to me it is a concept of purity and love.
We are the sons and daughters of God, every single one of us, gay, straight, murderer or saint. We are born pure, like God. Society soon twists us. How can a child who is born gay be flawed? It is society who makes him so.
"God made man in his image and likeness, and what he saw was good, very good." What does this mean to you? It means to me that we ARE God, every single one of us. How can we be "His image and likeness" and that not be so?
THIS is the truth Jesus tried to teach the world, and it got twisted by politicians and power hungry clergy.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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May 30, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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Very eloquent and sincere post, Julia. Profound truths often come to us under the weight of grief. Your son IS in the care of God. May you have peace and on the heels of sorrow....joy. And may the hour of your reunion be sweet.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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May 30, 2009 - 10:29am PT
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Wow Julia, I am so sorry,
there are no words to assuage something like this.
I can only hope that our society is moving forward in a direction (in spite of the recent setback in California), that in the not too distant future we will all look back on such intolerance with the same bemusement that we now view segregated drinking fountains, or women having to fight to win the right to vote.
Take care, and see you at TPR week after next!
Peter
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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Well said, Hossjulia, I'm sorry about your son. May God bless him.
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