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Mimi
climber
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No kidding, Clint. Antique blow-out was the point. I didn't think I had to post design drawings to show the difference.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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To me, "Antique blow-out" is a vague concept. It suggests that everything old is deteriorating in some general way.
But it is true that some antiques do blow out; others are built to last (still others are somewhere in between). So the trick is to distinguish the good old stuff from the bad or variable stuff.
I think we would agree that nylon and plastic definitely deteriorate over time. The safety springs will likely weaken after a large number of cycles, but how large is that number? The springs don't get cycled when the Jumars are sitting in the garage. Aluminum and steel should last a very long time (unless the steel is rusting).
It may be more like a feeling that to be safe, you should replace the oldest piece of gear you are using. We look at our racks, and much of them may be fairly new. Most of my older biners are not on my rack anymore. But it is not because I feel they are unsafe, it is because my newer biners are a lot lighter. Tom Rohrer still climbs with a lot of Chouinard biners from the early 70s. They are nice and I don't think they are unsafe. They are heavier than Neutrinos, though. I use a big pear shaped biner for belaying and rappelling. I keep them awhile and only retire them when they get a rather pronounced groove.
I think solid shaft Friends may be subject to this same kind of vague risk assessment. They are usually fairly old, they have moving parts, they might have invisible cracks? They are still on my rack (except for the #1s) - they are plenty strong and are lighter than Camalots.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mark, whatever you do--ZOOM!!!!
That's great, you're going for another one.
Have fun and be safe. . .
and give us a report when you get back!!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I love my old jugs too but I have had to retire a couple of pairs. I use the cheery yellow ones now but wouldn't be too reluctant to use the older ones if I gave them a good once over.
Unfortunately, "grey paint" can mean two different generations of Jumars. The older with a typewriter paint finish and the second generation with a smoother paint finish.
The older ones are less trustworthy by far and I wouldn't take them up there. Post up and I can easily identifty the generation if you like..
Yours are more likely the better made second generation and should be serviceable given your level of use. Give 'em a good inspection once they have been strippped of rigging and tape. If you don't feel good about them, buy some more. Cracks on the cam, cam axle and the thin portions of the casting are your concern for anything like a catastrophic failure. Amazingly, over the years I have never heard of an outright frame failure during use.
Bring along a spare in case of the spring problems that Clint mentions that are age related.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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Thanks all,
The ones I have seem to be the second generation. The generation before mine seemed to not have paint. Mine had that bluish/gray paint that came off easily.
I'll re-sling them to include the top ring. I think they'll be fine, I'm not going to worry about it.
When I get home I'll post a photo of them for you Steve. Thanks.
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jstan
climber
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Version A's here. The slings are also forty years old. Seems to me their main weakness is the duct tape is coming off. If the frame breaks, you go onto the top loop, and if the taping of the top loop separates from the remaining frame, it might cause the jumar to invert. Thought that back in the early 70's but did not do anything about it. Some sort of Kevlar tape maybe?
Never did think the die cast aluminum was a good idea.
Last time I used them in anger I was on 3/8" goldline. At that point I was not too concerned about the jumars.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hieblers and Gibbs looked pretty good back in those days! LOL
3/8" goldline! I bet the scenery is still spinning!
Please replace your old tat, for my sake Jstan, before you jug again in anger......
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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You're right about that Steve. If I didn't know Jstan better
I'd still say he was dizzy from that goldline!!!!
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drdave
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sounds like you've already decided, but I'll add that I'm still using gray Jumars and happy with them.
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jstan
climber
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Yeah. The 3/8" gold line was Bragg's idea. My first encounter with spin.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Let us know if you come back in one piece. I have a yellow pair, bought the first year they phased out the gray ones. Double slung as was the practice. Last time on the Captain was in '95 and they were fine, but I'm considering dusting them off for maybe another shot if I can coax a buddy and fellow fat dad off the couch.
BTW, I recently tossed a bunch of old mags, but couldn't bring myself to toss Mountain 66 and 67 (or is 67 and 68?), the issues with your article.
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couchmaster
climber
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I had a generation D which I sold for $10 so I could upgrade to the Yellow ones in the 80s. I immediately wished I had the grey ones back. I finally found a set of the B versions and am breathing easy.
Being a gear whore though, TO-FRIGGAN-DAY, I just got a pair of the Yates ascender in which Mountain gear was selling for $74.99 a SET!!!!
ps, they are wayyyyy heavy, they'll be great for cragging, but not for a wall I bet. What route are you thinking of Mark?
From the linked site for posterity:
"The major drawback of the early Jumars is the method provided for sling attachment. The correct method involves bringing the slings up through the square hole in the base of the Jumar and around the back of the handle. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION SO DO NOT TRY THIS WITHOUT INSTRUCTION! It is unsafe to simply loop the sling through the handle, since this places the load on the thin, weak area at the base of the front strap. The front strap (brace) can then break under tension. There have been several reports of ascender failure resulting from this mistake (Davison, Don Jr., Hits and Near Misses, N.S.S. News, v 34, #5, May, 1976, p. 80; Davison, Don Jr., Hits and Near Misses, N.S.S. News, v 35, #4, April, 1977, p. 73). It is not clear whether the broken Jumars were Version A, Version C, Version D, or some other Version. Eventually the 78 (yellow) series Jumar was developed to eliminate this perceived problem."
I don't think I understand this, I thought you put the sling on the button (or 2 small ones), and run one off the top as well.
Anyone?
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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That's a good question. I just recently acquired a pair of yellow Jumars and replaced the old webbing on them with new webbing. I am a total noob and these are my 1st ascenders, do I even need to tape up the yellow ones, it sounds like the problems solved with webbing were from the grey Jumars. I copied the previous webbing and put a loop through the top hole and taped it to the handle so it would join with the small loop on the lower hole, then I taped the two together to form a single clip point. Was this common or am I doing it all wrong? Any pictures?
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"I don't think I understand this, I thought you put the sling on the button (or 2 small ones), and run one off the top as well."
There is only the square hole in the frame on the older jumars and some folks simply slung the thin side of the frame at the base. Don is saying this was the incorrect way to rig it.
He's saying to bring the webbing up through the hole and around the thick side and back through the hole. As I recall that is how I rigged mine.
Wow.....Don Davison... thats a name from the past. Heard he disappeared in Patagonia.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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LOL The antique road show!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Let's just say that there MIGHT be a trip report sometime in November. We'll leave it at that.
BTW, had a colonsocopy yesterday. I'm clean and good to go.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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death would be the first good reason to get a new pair.
The new BD jumars are very nice!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Speaking about Jumars, I have a pair that have been on my boat for almost 30 years. I am curious if they are the same pair I bought in the early 60s?????? Probably around 1962?? The following is a response to John Morton on the Sacherer Thread that I posted a while back:
John
"Good to hear from you. I probably had the very first pair of Jumars in America and one of the first Perlon ropes. I ordered these direct from Sporthaus Shuster (sic?) in Germany along with many other items unavailable at the time. Terray Down Jackets and Pied de L'elephant Bivy Sack and the classic Sporthaus heavy duty Egyptian Cotton Down Jacket. I worked at the Ski Hut all through high school and suprised Steck the day I brought the Jumars to work. He had never heard of them. We went up to Indain Rock for a trial session. I had been practicing and l gave him an eye opening demo. I think I also introduced Kor to Jumars about the same time."
Following are photos of said Jumars. So any history technocrats out there have any ideas??????? Funny thing was I discovered it was easier and safer to use Prusik knots to ascend either the backstay or headstay to get to the top of the mast. Quite an experience to do this in a big sea on a rolling boat!
cheers
Guido
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SuperTopo on the Web
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I should probably duct tape the upper sling to the handle - see jstan's note above on possible inversion if the main 1" sling fails (you can see the residue from when I used to have duct tape on it)
Let us know!