Discussion Topic |
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 1, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them on an up coming El Cap ascent? (given that I change the slings that have been on them since, oh, '78 or so..)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dude if you want to sell them I could use a modern pair,
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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If you are serious then inspect for cracks thoroughly.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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I'm serious. I'll hang on them and look for cracks in them under tension.
I've done a fair number of routes with them but they've never been abused.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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They haven't failed you yet.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Mark I'll loan you a pair of CMI expedition ascenders and you can give your ol' pair to the yosemite museum. They are worth allot more there, then you risking your hide to those antiquated rope chewers.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Get a 5 lb chute from Potter and your all set.
Cosmos would offer the best Aero Dynamics.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Never seen any of the yellow jumars crack but the thin side (under the cam)of the gray jumars has been known to separate. I would say something about using old gear but I would be a hypocrite. My rack is ancient!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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no... but as you are jugging on them remember one thing...
YER GONNA DIE!!!!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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What's yur life worth?
Highly likely you wouldn't see a crack.
Machinist's blueing could possibly show it but not necessarily.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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If they weren't cracked 35 years ago, they aren't cracked now unless someone took a hammer to them. They still work just like the modern ones, although the new Black Diamond N-Force ascenders are pretty beefy and cool.
Mark, your old jumars are collectible and probably worth allot of money on Ebay, you could sell them and buy a new pair and maybe have money left over for more gear. But who wants to sell their old climbing hardware with so many memories... I pick up a old Eiger biner and drift away.....
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I had a pair of the old, gray Jumars that I bought in 1976, and used on Excalibur in 2002. All the way up, I used a prusik knot (5.5mm kevlar) above the top one, as I'd learned from Robbins' Advanced Rockcraft. I didn't have any problems with the old Jumars, but I did get a newer set a couple of years later.
Back in the day, we'd sling them through the upper eye, and coach-tape the webbing all the way down the handle to provide a second clip-in point down low. And we'd use a short sling through that odd, vertical lower eye, wrapped around both sides of the frame. We'd use cotton coach's tape, not duct tape, because it provided a better hand grip.
My recollection is that the very earliest Jumars had a small number of failures with the aluminum body breaking under high loading, like falling on them. I don't remember if the lower frame broke on one side, or what. But, the double-slinging technique was pretty common back then, and I learned it from somebody in Camp 4.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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This is ridiculous. Get a cool new pair. They are cheap and way better. Consider Todd Skinner's nonsense harness on the Leaning Tower. Good April First Troll by the way.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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I backed my grey jugs with slings every way I could even when they were the best money can buy. I retired them close to 20 years ago. I believe the yellow ones had the problems. Question for you Mark. Do you want to be thinking about those things every time you are using them? I think you would rather think about something else.
How is your brother?
Ken
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The YCA already has one pair of grey jumars, which were passed on to Ken last autumn. From the late 1960s, in fairly good shape - they were given to me by the family of Leif Patterson.
But I hope neither Ken nor Mark is thinking of using them for real.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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They're probably fine. They will not have "degraded" significantly like nylon, though they might be worn out from use. Check the springs on the safety latches, replace the slings, and you're good to go. In some ways those old grey jumars are the best.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I still use my gray jumars on a regular basis. They are fine. I use the redundant clip in slings as Tom described.
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Mark
Thirty five is young I turned fifty four Monday
But my jumars are only thirty one .
Maybe it is habit but they feel better than some newer ones I have tried.
BD really felt bad till I realized the guy at REI had the handing wrong DOH!
Rich Sims
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Mimi
climber
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That's awesome that you're going up for another adventure, Mark. Oh, the horror.
Get new jugs. Retire the old ones. Enough to deal with up there.
I was determined to hold on to my old Clog Ascenders proudly stamped 'Second' from my visit there in '82. I'd used them on 5 walls with no trouble. While following the second pitch traverse of an aborted attempt on Eagle's Way with Steve 18 years later, one of them started acting weird. I struggled through a couple more pieces and noticed the antique scroll pin had walked leaving me hanging on one jug. I was able to push it back in and finish but it was clear that it was toast. Boy, was that an eye opener.
As Steve heckled, and in the middle of my plight, came a stringy theoretical voice from below. Chongo appeared at the base inspecting his Clampet trove hanging from the Sea. He asked if we worked for the Park Service. We both guffawed and figured the assumption was due to us wearing our geeky MSR helmets. And me flailing, of course. I didn't know the PS climbed walls.
We rapped and chatted it up with Chongo about his hanging garden of crap. He had staked a claim up there and weren't nobody gonna run him off. When he asked Steve if he was interested in buying his Big Wall book, I had to laugh. Steve calmly told him that he already knew what he was doing. That was a humorous moment. Chongo laughed too. The conversation then turned to line walking.
At least consider the newer yellow Jumar. That's what I went with. The castings are heavier than the grey. And they're so bright and cheery. Make sure the plastic hook on the safety doesn't scare the crap out of you however. LOL!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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A failure mode on some Clog ascenders in 1982 is quite irrelevant to how a Jumar might fail in 2009. At least, looking at the cam bearing on Jumars, that thing is very well made and is not going to come apart.
However, here are some failure modes to be aware of:
 single attachment sling fails due to untying, fraying on sharp edge, or cracking of body (solution: two attachment slings)
spring on cam fails (solution: tie in short if you are taking one ascender off the rope)
spring on safety fails, or (plastic) safety breaks under pressure (rope might come out of ascender if it is used at an unusual angle)
None of these things have happened to me, but Werner witnessed a spring failing once (as I recall it was on the safety).
I bought myself a pair of (very slightly used) yellow Jumars on ebay a few years ago, as a backup pair in case I ever thought the gray ones were unsafe. But I ended up never using them, and I sold them to my climbing partner after he had a very scary accident where his Petzl ascenders slid down the rope. Newer does not always mean safer.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/HECPages/HEC36.html
The pair I use is "Version D".
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Mimi
climber
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No kidding, Clint. Antique blow-out was the point. I didn't think I had to post design drawings to show the difference.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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To me, "Antique blow-out" is a vague concept. It suggests that everything old is deteriorating in some general way.
But it is true that some antiques do blow out; others are built to last (still others are somewhere in between). So the trick is to distinguish the good old stuff from the bad or variable stuff.
I think we would agree that nylon and plastic definitely deteriorate over time. The safety springs will likely weaken after a large number of cycles, but how large is that number? The springs don't get cycled when the Jumars are sitting in the garage. Aluminum and steel should last a very long time (unless the steel is rusting).
It may be more like a feeling that to be safe, you should replace the oldest piece of gear you are using. We look at our racks, and much of them may be fairly new. Most of my older biners are not on my rack anymore. But it is not because I feel they are unsafe, it is because my newer biners are a lot lighter. Tom Rohrer still climbs with a lot of Chouinard biners from the early 70s. They are nice and I don't think they are unsafe. They are heavier than Neutrinos, though. I use a big pear shaped biner for belaying and rappelling. I keep them awhile and only retire them when they get a rather pronounced groove.
I think solid shaft Friends may be subject to this same kind of vague risk assessment. They are usually fairly old, they have moving parts, they might have invisible cracks? They are still on my rack (except for the #1s) - they are plenty strong and are lighter than Camalots.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mark, whatever you do--ZOOM!!!!
That's great, you're going for another one.
Have fun and be safe. . .
and give us a report when you get back!!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I love my old jugs too but I have had to retire a couple of pairs. I use the cheery yellow ones now but wouldn't be too reluctant to use the older ones if I gave them a good once over.
Unfortunately, "grey paint" can mean two different generations of Jumars. The older with a typewriter paint finish and the second generation with a smoother paint finish.
The older ones are less trustworthy by far and I wouldn't take them up there. Post up and I can easily identifty the generation if you like..
Yours are more likely the better made second generation and should be serviceable given your level of use. Give 'em a good inspection once they have been strippped of rigging and tape. If you don't feel good about them, buy some more. Cracks on the cam, cam axle and the thin portions of the casting are your concern for anything like a catastrophic failure. Amazingly, over the years I have never heard of an outright frame failure during use.
Bring along a spare in case of the spring problems that Clint mentions that are age related.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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Thanks all,
The ones I have seem to be the second generation. The generation before mine seemed to not have paint. Mine had that bluish/gray paint that came off easily.
I'll re-sling them to include the top ring. I think they'll be fine, I'm not going to worry about it.
When I get home I'll post a photo of them for you Steve. Thanks.
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jstan
climber
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Version A's here. The slings are also forty years old. Seems to me their main weakness is the duct tape is coming off. If the frame breaks, you go onto the top loop, and if the taping of the top loop separates from the remaining frame, it might cause the jumar to invert. Thought that back in the early 70's but did not do anything about it. Some sort of Kevlar tape maybe?
Never did think the die cast aluminum was a good idea.
Last time I used them in anger I was on 3/8" goldline. At that point I was not too concerned about the jumars.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hieblers and Gibbs looked pretty good back in those days! LOL
3/8" goldline! I bet the scenery is still spinning!
Please replace your old tat, for my sake Jstan, before you jug again in anger......
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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You're right about that Steve. If I didn't know Jstan better
I'd still say he was dizzy from that goldline!!!!
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drdave
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sounds like you've already decided, but I'll add that I'm still using gray Jumars and happy with them.
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jstan
climber
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Yeah. The 3/8" gold line was Bragg's idea. My first encounter with spin.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Let us know if you come back in one piece. I have a yellow pair, bought the first year they phased out the gray ones. Double slung as was the practice. Last time on the Captain was in '95 and they were fine, but I'm considering dusting them off for maybe another shot if I can coax a buddy and fellow fat dad off the couch.
BTW, I recently tossed a bunch of old mags, but couldn't bring myself to toss Mountain 66 and 67 (or is 67 and 68?), the issues with your article.
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couchmaster
climber
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I had a generation D which I sold for $10 so I could upgrade to the Yellow ones in the 80s. I immediately wished I had the grey ones back. I finally found a set of the B versions and am breathing easy.
Being a gear whore though, TO-FRIGGAN-DAY, I just got a pair of the Yates ascender in which Mountain gear was selling for $74.99 a SET!!!!
ps, they are wayyyyy heavy, they'll be great for cragging, but not for a wall I bet. What route are you thinking of Mark?
From the linked site for posterity:
"The major drawback of the early Jumars is the method provided for sling attachment. The correct method involves bringing the slings up through the square hole in the base of the Jumar and around the back of the handle. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION SO DO NOT TRY THIS WITHOUT INSTRUCTION! It is unsafe to simply loop the sling through the handle, since this places the load on the thin, weak area at the base of the front strap. The front strap (brace) can then break under tension. There have been several reports of ascender failure resulting from this mistake (Davison, Don Jr., Hits and Near Misses, N.S.S. News, v 34, #5, May, 1976, p. 80; Davison, Don Jr., Hits and Near Misses, N.S.S. News, v 35, #4, April, 1977, p. 73). It is not clear whether the broken Jumars were Version A, Version C, Version D, or some other Version. Eventually the 78 (yellow) series Jumar was developed to eliminate this perceived problem."
I don't think I understand this, I thought you put the sling on the button (or 2 small ones), and run one off the top as well.
Anyone?
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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That's a good question. I just recently acquired a pair of yellow Jumars and replaced the old webbing on them with new webbing. I am a total noob and these are my 1st ascenders, do I even need to tape up the yellow ones, it sounds like the problems solved with webbing were from the grey Jumars. I copied the previous webbing and put a loop through the top hole and taped it to the handle so it would join with the small loop on the lower hole, then I taped the two together to form a single clip point. Was this common or am I doing it all wrong? Any pictures?
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"I don't think I understand this, I thought you put the sling on the button (or 2 small ones), and run one off the top as well."
There is only the square hole in the frame on the older jumars and some folks simply slung the thin side of the frame at the base. Don is saying this was the incorrect way to rig it.
He's saying to bring the webbing up through the hole and around the thick side and back through the hole. As I recall that is how I rigged mine.
Wow.....Don Davison... thats a name from the past. Heard he disappeared in Patagonia.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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LOL The antique road show!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Let's just say that there MIGHT be a trip report sometime in November. We'll leave it at that.
BTW, had a colonsocopy yesterday. I'm clean and good to go.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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death would be the first good reason to get a new pair.
The new BD jumars are very nice!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Speaking about Jumars, I have a pair that have been on my boat for almost 30 years. I am curious if they are the same pair I bought in the early 60s?????? Probably around 1962?? The following is a response to John Morton on the Sacherer Thread that I posted a while back:
John
"Good to hear from you. I probably had the very first pair of Jumars in America and one of the first Perlon ropes. I ordered these direct from Sporthaus Shuster (sic?) in Germany along with many other items unavailable at the time. Terray Down Jackets and Pied de L'elephant Bivy Sack and the classic Sporthaus heavy duty Egyptian Cotton Down Jacket. I worked at the Ski Hut all through high school and suprised Steck the day I brought the Jumars to work. He had never heard of them. We went up to Indain Rock for a trial session. I had been practicing and l gave him an eye opening demo. I think I also introduced Kor to Jumars about the same time."
Following are photos of said Jumars. So any history technocrats out there have any ideas??????? Funny thing was I discovered it was easier and safer to use Prusik knots to ascend either the backstay or headstay to get to the top of the mast. Quite an experience to do this in a big sea on a rolling boat!
cheers
Guido
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WBraun
climber
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The newer yellow Jumars were redesigned and they are harder to get on and off the rope then the gray ones. The gray ones were the most efficient getting on and off the rope.
Everything after the gray ones were designed for maximum safety and thus became a nightmare for efficiency getting off and on the rope.
WTF is up with you jumar designers? Do you jumar engineers even do walls or even jumar?
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Double D
climber
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Yer good to go with some new webbing doubled. Shesh... does old metal loose it's strength just 'cause it's been collecting dust?
The bigger question is what wall?
ps I'm still using my 30+ year yellars and they work fine.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It looks like those jumars just upthread are much the worse for wear (and corrosion) due to exposure to salt water.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yes Anders-funny, the unforgiving nature of salt air and the marine environment. Actually amazing what little corrosion exists.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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Here they are.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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from a scanned edited page from my 1987 "Big Wall Tech Manual"
Those ones corroded by the ocean air would probably have significant weakening, I'd look hard at the hardware and cast material holding the cam in place. i wouldn't use them. Anyway, you's best be tying in short in any case!
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couchmaster
climber
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All you need it the top cord shown in Johns illustration there Mark.
PS, Guido, yours (and mine) are wrong!
Thanks Clint and john for the great pics!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I'd take a good look at the springs. The typical spring steel is high carbon music wire, with little or no chromium or nickel to reduce corrosion. Once they start rusting and getting little pits, springs like that can suddenly break with little warning. If anything, they'll feel a bit softer before breaking, but even that isn't a reliable indicator. They'll tend to rust fastest where they are most highly stressed, in the coils, where it can be difficult to see.
EDIT: If I had Guido's sea-crusted jumars, I'd drill out the axle rivets, and replace them and the springs with stainless steel. And I'd wind my own springs, instead of trying to find existing ones that are correct. The safety catch pins could probably be pressed out, the holes reamed out, and new SS pins pressed in - only one side should be an interference fit.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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I do like the variation that Clint has used for the upper knot on the backup sling. Actually, it's not really a full knot there, rather, it's a slip knot. The actual knot tying the backup sling together is down where it gets clipped in.
Like every good system on a big wall, redundancy is key. Two distinct slings would have to fail before the tie-in system fails.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I just remembered the first pair of jumars I had. My friend Steve and I did a short route at the base of the Grand Wall, in the early 1970s. The descent is a ledge traverse. We were always on the lookout for booty gear, and found some stuff on the ledge, including the jumars. They must have been dropped from University Wall or Uncle Ben's, and so have fallen a fair way, and bounced on the steep slab.
We used them anyway, for a few years, until we could afford to buy some. No harm done.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Would someone else PLEASE yank Addison's chain about his old cmi ascenders with broken springs? Someone's gonna die on those things and he swears they're fine.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Who would dare question RR and YC and live to tell the tale?!?
A quick look at the modern Jumar and you can easily see that the desired loading point is in line with the rope hook. On the older but essentially identical frames, this is the weakest point in the casting.
What you boys are yearning for is the old school hitch that makes it all better! LOL
These are the oldest widely available model that I bought used from Marty Woerner back in high school.
The hitch even protects the otherwise exposed weak point. A single piece of 1" allows this set-up to work on older Jumars. The trick is to stack several wraps to form a flared pad for your hand at the handle bottom.
I pre-rig my jugs with a full length sling down to the bootloop.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Some pictures of a very early Clog ascender. Beautiful, foolproof design and solid construction.
Not suitable for any real aid work as it ain't comin' off the rope easily!
I used this along side a Sticht spring loaded belay plate as my solo belay system on the Turning Point. As I climbed along, the ascender was replaced by a locking carabiner and stacked overhand slip knots.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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>
Nice, Mark. Model B with the aluminum safeties, and no visible rust - those were built to last!
I agree with Steve that the lower hole on the Yellow Jumar model was an important place to make stronger.
And another lesson in Steve's photos which I see violated sometimes is that it is important to use a sling in the lower hole instead of a biner. The Storrick page, when discussing the Clog Expedition ascenders, mentions that they once had a lower hole, but it was discontinued after some accidents where people clipped there with a biner which broke when cross loaded.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Gotchyer Hi-Tech Russkie Ascenders here.
Come and git 'em!
For you weight-conscious types here's the
Mini-Me Jug
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Mimi
climber
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Cool Soviet funk, Reilly. You must have quite the collection from your trips.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Second widely available model- smooth paint.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve is right - roughly second generation - smooth gray paint, plastic safeties.
I was going to link to the Storrick page again, but I see its bandwidth has been exceeded! Lots of people checking it out - it is defnitely worthy, and hopefully will be available again soon.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Thanks Clint, I'll feel right at home dangling from them on the XXXX later on this year!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jumars from the early 70's; these made it up the Salathe Wall solo, the West Face of EC, Quarter Domes and others. Real old.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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First widely available model by the typewriter paint, etc.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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It's a deal, Johno.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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This topic provided the motivation I've been seeking for a long time: address the portaledge suspension strap issue.
Here's a prototype micro jug for the suspension cords of my portaledge. I hate those webbing sliders. The idea here is six things like this jumar my ledge into position, on 6mm perlon instead of webbing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Very cool! Those are original run, Rokjox. That would make sense considering that Chuck would have laid his hands on the first available pair once Royal brought them over.
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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Jul 12, 2009 - 08:37am PT
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>I was going to link to the Storrick page again, but I see its bandwidth has been exceeded! Lots of people checking it out - it is defnitely worthy, and hopefully will be available again soon.
I apologize, I was doing a lot of major upgrades to my site and I think that is why it was overloaded for a few days in April. I believe that this is only the second time in 10 years that I hit the limit. I'm outgrowing my current ISP allocations, and will be looking for a better deal soon.
Rokjox' jumars with the red and blue cams are as old as any that I've been able to acquire, but I've seen older. In 1982, I visited Walter Marti, the designer and manufacturer of the Jumar ascender. Mr. Marti showed me old Jumars with cams that had the same "Z" shaped teeth found on the early Clog ascenders. I hear that there are some of these floating around the caving community in Alberta, but haven't been able to track any down.
I know that many of us like to hang onto old gear, but if anyone has any old gear that they are willing to contribute to my collection, let me know. At least my web site will let everyone see it. Thanks!
Gary Storrick
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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Jul 12, 2009 - 08:46am PT
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>My recollection is that the very earliest Jumars had a small number of failures with the aluminum body breaking under high loading, like falling on them. I don't remember if the lower frame broke on one side, or what.
Walter Marti's intent was that climbers would tie into the jumar by runing slings up through the hole in the base. Some didn't, and just tied into the thin front strap - or even clipped a carabiner in there. That is what tended to break. See my web site (Google my name) for more information.
Gary D. Storrick
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Jul 12, 2009 - 09:20am PT
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Mark, just get some new ones please......
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oldcragster
Gym climber
WA
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Jul 12, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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are you serious?
I mean about climbing a wall route......an old friend wants to know
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Very interesting thread.
My old (not often used) gray Jumars are still in fine condition. They've spent most of their life in a bag in the garage (unfortunately). I "double threaded" them the old fashioned way. I'd say it's DEFINITELY necessary to thread both the top and bottom holes, even on the yellow model. I've always been afraid that slamming in against the wall during an "accidental excursion" could fracture the thin vertical bar that's away from your hand. The double thread relieves that worry.
The sketch in deuce4's earlier post shows the way I learned to tie them. Was taught by an early big wall rat who was also an engineer.
About aging: The aluminum alone will last forever. But, as guido's pics show, there will be significant corrosion where the steel pin and steel axle meet the aluminum. Both metals will corrode electrolytically if left wet. They will corrode VERY fast in a salt air or water environment.
When my wife and I sailed the South Pacific I took cord for prusiks and 'biners. I didn't take any ascenders because of the potential corrosion problem.Swinging at the top of a mast in a rough sea is no place to mistrust your gear. I retired all the 'biners when we returned. They're kept nowhere near the climbing gear I use.
(My engineer's hat)
There are three clues to electrolytic corrosion in painted aluminum:
1: The obvious corrosion (rust) on the steel components WILL be matched by a similar, possibly invisible corrosion in the aluminum. I wouldn't replace the corroded steel pins, I'd retire the jumars.
2: White powder anywhere on the aluminum where it's bare. This is the aluminum salt byproduct of the corrosion.
3: Bubbles under the paint. Where the corrosion is invisible, the aluminum salt will make small bubbles in the paint. Pop one and you'll see the white powdery salt underneath.
ANY sign of corrosion is a sign of existing weakness and increased possibility of failure.
No corrosion? Re-sling if necessary and jugs away.
Fred
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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Well, at the end of the day, I went out and got new ones. I don't like the Petzls as much and the old Jumars but, yeah, you're right, I don't want to die.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The Jumar design is simply better than any other for its intended use. No point in shopping around IMO.
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Ropeboy
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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WARNING: A RUDE REALITY CHECK.
Ya know what happens if the bottom of a grey jumar handles breaks? The webbing to the top hole that I and everyone else have routed down the handle keeps you connected to the jumar, for sure. But I simulated this just for fun when I changed my forty year old webbing recently. The weighted webbing tore through the few layers of duck tape I had always used. The weighted webbing straight to the top hole INVERTED the jumar at a scary angle. So I suggest everyone wrap the tape with lots and lots of layers to keep the webbing in place down the handles.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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i would invest in a new pair.
too many deaths already this year Mark!
kurt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I think the old grey jugs are the best. But the teeth are too sharp, you need to file them down so they don't cut through the sheath. That also makes it easier to slide them up the rope when you need to.
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Dave Johnson
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Dude spends serious $$$ on camera lenses and agonizes over ascenders?
Great job on the NIAD, Hud!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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I recently picked up a pair of first American release Jumars. They have a little typewriter paint missing but otherwise were only used a couple of times.
The white rubber stop is for the photo only.
Amazing how delicate the early castings were. Very hard to avoid or detect any flaws.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France.
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Aug 23, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Aug 23, 2010 - 09:54am PT
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Mark, I've got a pair of the old gray Jumars that Charlie Porter gave me and they are still working fine. I recently did a wall and my partner had a pair of the new BD ascenders that are more complicated. I didn't like them and went back to the Jumars. They seem to work just fine.
Since they have never been dropped or appear to have degraded I agree with Deuce. Good job on still getting out there and cranking up the walls and solo at that! Jack
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Stephane- Have you ever seen an older version of the Jumar device or a prototype? It would be nice to say with certainty that the model that I posted are the "original" Jumars.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France.
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Aug 23, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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No Steve, I have never seen any prototype or older version of the Jumar devices than the ones shown here, but I am far from being the "Old Testament". I think that you can say that they are the first model to be marketed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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Thanks Stephane.
Did you ever meet the two Swiss designers of the Jumar?
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France.
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Aug 23, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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No Steve, I have never met Adolf Jüsy and Walter Marty
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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Aug 23, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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I gave my grey pair to a friend because they are actually smaller than the yellow ones and she likes the way they fit her little hands. They are rigged in the same way as Clint's. I made it clear to her exactly how old they are.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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I sold my pair of pristine Yellow Jumars bought in the 70s to Juan earlier this year... for $30 and shipping...
...don't know what he was thinking to do with them. He seemed to have a plan, I wish that plan had been stronger than his choice to call it quits...
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kinnikinik
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 23, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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i actually witnessed the front of the clamp fall off of a grey jumar in use, high on the west main wall. The other one held. Just sayin.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 23, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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1969-ish. These went up the Salathe solo and a whole lot of other routes:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 24, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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I use the most recent yellow version and have no complaint. The reach that the below-cam safety allows is crucial IMO.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2010 - 01:22am PT
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In the blue circle is where the spring that holds the safety lever up.
It can break due to fatigue and has broken which can cause detachment from the rope. Failed on Dale Bards jumars on an ascent of El Cap we did once.
He almost took the ride to the end of the rope.
In the red circles one can see the differences between the gray and yellow.
The slant on the gray is what makes them come off/on the rope much faster and efficient than the yellow. The draw back is safety so one must be more diligent with keeping an eye out when doing traverses.
The yellow suck big time for efficiency. The safety lever is inefficient too.
Blah blah blah ......
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 24, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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RJ - What the f*#k is that rotten tat on those bad boys?
Hudon - You have all the other kind gear . . . get some quality jugs!
The Kid is right, the Black Diamond rigs are the sh#t.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 24, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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Werner, they're all better than prussiks.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aug 24, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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With old jumars, is there any concern with the steel/aluminum corrosion where the two metals come into contact?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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There is always concern...but I haven't heard of a problem at the axle.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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With old jumars, is there any concern with the steel/aluminum corrosion where the two metals come into contact? Short answer: Maybe, depends on usage and storage conditions.
See my post #77 and guido's earlier pics of his jumars that've seen significant salt air exposure.
Werner
You Da Man with that comparison photo. Also note that each version has thicker metal around the top loop than the previous. Also each version has a different cam design. Evolution at work. Sometimes a very old design which sees continuous improvement is better than the new-fangled stuff. Even a revolutionary / evolutionary design can become obsolete.
Mine are about 1976 vintage and are the middle style. New BDs or Petzls are on my (long) shopping list.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 27, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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kinnikinik- Are you saying that you witnessed the entire casting fail at the pinch point of the cam? Any chance that you could take a photo, if you still have the bits?
Did those Jumars take any big impacts from falling, etc? Or were they well worn?
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Mark Not-circlehead
Boulder climber
Martinez, CA
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Sep 27, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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My wife wants a new pair of jugs.....
Hers are over 40 years old, starting to show some tension cracks, and are getting a little loose.....
Oh....wrong forum.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 27, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Stick around there's a vertical device for you...
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Sep 28, 2010 - 12:55am PT
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Woohoo, Gary Storrick's site is back! I love that site!
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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I visited Walter Marti in 1982. While I was there, I saw some earlier Jumars that pre-dated the ones Steve showed here. The earliest Jumars had what I call "Z-shaped" teeth. I don't have any of those in my collection so they are not shown on my web site. I'd love to get a pair; perhaps someday someone will be nice to me, then I can share them on my site.
The Yellow Jumar that Steve showed isn't the original one of those either (and Steve never claimed it was - I'm just sharing information). There was a short-lived model where the safety had a "beak" (as Walter Marti's secretary called it - she was translater when I visited).
Then there was the Jumar Combi, ca. 1977. These never made it into real production, and in 1982 Walter Marti didn't even have a pair himself. Ian Ellis, a former caving vendor had a pair, but he has disappeared from caving circles and I haven't been able to contact him. The former owner of Expe in France also had a pair, but they've gone elsewhere as well. It is a shame, it was a really interesting idea: stamped frame (but looking nothing like the Petzl, plastic cam with replaceable metal teeth, safety catch that kept the rope from coming out the side, and a pulley that clipped onto the ascender for hauling. Walter Marti decided that it was just too much of a change from tradition.
Gary Storrick
PS: Glad to hear y'all like my site. Thanks for your support!!
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Gary I like the story on your site about sledgehammering the yellow jumar, and it survives. What is your favorite ascender of all time ?
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kinnikinik
Trad climber
B.C.
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Steve-While jugging and cleaning a pitch the casting that the cam pinches against simply fell off. without warning the jumar simple came off the rope sans a piece of casting.No idea where this particular unit is today-happened 16yrs ago.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the clarification about the casting failure! That must have been spooky, to say the least.
I never claimed that the yellow Jumars were original so I am a bit confused about Gary's comment.
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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Sorry Steve, I didn't mean to imply that. I edited my post to clarify the point. I hope it is OK now.
Gary
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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bmacd asked me, "What is your favorite ascender of all time ?"
There isn't a simple answer to that. Cavers use ascenders differently and in different environments than climbers. Many cavers use the Frog system, which works better with certain ascenders that other systems don't use. Still, for my purposes most of the time, I prefer the small CMI UltrAscender modified with my own style of safety latches (based on the safeties on the old gray Jumars). Most handled ascenders are bigger than they need to be (and the handle is not to hang from - that tires the arms), and extruded frames are more rugged than cast or stamped ones. After that, its on to the little things that are not so important and really depend on personal preference.
That said, I put a lot of value on knowing how to use Prusik knots (I prefer helicals - so I love the old little Salewa ascender) and knowing the RBS knot (and a few others like it).
Historically (caving), I went Prusiks-> Gibbs ->Prusiks ->Jumars ->CMIs.
Gary
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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When did jumars first start showing up in Yosemite?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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They came in the Yosemite scene around 1963 or so when the "Yosemite" hauling system was being developed. Being able to have hauling and cleaning happen at the same time was revolutionary and made it possible for a team of two to move with peak efficiency. Royal worked out the details and he and Tom Frost put the technique to good use on the second ascent of the Dihedral Wall and along with Glen Denny on some early recons on the North America Wall in 1964.
This view was new in 1964. Tom Frost photo.
Tom Cochrane mentioned that his original set of Jumars came with a set of laid rope rigging. I finally got a chance to see what he was talking about in a recent ebay listing. These are second generation Jumars.
I confirmed that the rigging shown was original equipment from the seller even though I did not buy this set.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Thanks, Steve! You are the consummate historian!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Still a few details about the Jumar story to work out.
Certainly among the top ten gear innovations,IMO.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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The original rope in those slings appears to be sisal, which was adequate for crevasse self-rescue, but certainly not for prolonged ascents on climbing ropes. After reports of failure went back to the manufacturer, they started shipping without the foot loops. The unfortunate result of that was the original brilliant design for the foot-loops was lost upon the climbing community.
If you look closely at the foot loop of those original slings, you can see the kink where someone has untied the marlin spike hitch that was originally used to hold your foot from slipping out of the sling.
You can also see that the straight run of the sling can slide up and down through a carabiner clipped to a figure-8 chest harness. This allows rapid smooth ascent and stopping in various braced positions as well as seamless transition back and forth to self-protected free climbing on various angles of rock, and also allows you to let go with both hands free to work on cleaning gear. This is a very efficient technique that seems to have disappeared into ancient history.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Tom- Since you bought original run Jumars without the blue-red safety levers did your set of rigging have two slings without color coding?
Now to the question of who first came back with a set of Jumars from Europe.
Royal coming back fro his first trip to the Alps would be my first guess.
Any recollection Tom?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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I don't recall any color coding, and I think that original pair eventually wound up with Kim Schmitz.
I now know that Joe McKeown in Berkeley bought a pair about the same time I did in the early 60s. However we didn't know each other at the time and only met recently through ST.
In about 1960 I had been trying to contrive a rope climbing device using yachtline camming hardware. Then I saw Jumars advertised as a radical crevasse self-rescue device in a Sporthaus Shuster catalog that Yvon gave me. I recognized they had succeeded in designing what I had failed to visualize properly. I brought the first mail order pair of Jumars into the valley that I knew about in the early 60s.
I showed this pair of Jumars to Royal and Pratt, who on first sight considered them to be an inappropriate and dangerous contrivance for Yosemite climbing.
I first used these Jumars on a significant climb with Sacherer on the El Cap Tree Direct. I took a long leader fall when a RURP sling broke, and Frank belaying from the ground lowered me from a high point up the RURP ladder. The next day Frank assumed we would just pull the ropes and leave the gear on the overhanging wall. However I Jumared up the belay line to my high point. The factory-provided slings frayed and broke when I was high off the ground, leaving me hanging by the handles until I could connect an aid sling. This story (related in more detail elsewhere on ST) gave Jumars a very bad reputation in Camp 4, that I had to work hard to overcome.
After this experience Royal and Pratt seriously didn't like Jumars and tried to dissuade me from using them. Then one day they watched me race up the ropes strung for filming on the West Face of Sentinel. That's another story told elsewhere on ST.
Royal was very angry with me over the West Face incident and bumped me from the NA Wall team. But he did reconsider Jumars and tried them out with me. He didn't like my replacement one-inch sling material in the similar arrangement as the factory slings, but with the slings continuing through the loop on top of the handle. However Royal borrowed that first pair of Jumars for several walls that summer, and so did Kor.
The follow summer, now with Royal's blessing, everyone had purchased their own Jumars. ('Everyone' being the dozen of us who were venturing onto big walls in those days.) And yet ever since, people have not learned to use the original beautiful sling design, which allows working with both hands free at any point, and allows seamless transitioning to and from self-belayed top-roped free-climbing.
Incidentally I also tried for years to devise a camming crack anchor and never was happy with my designs. I was very chagrined when someone who knew about this first showed me a 'Friend'.
Note that there is another important device I have been using for fifty years that Royal never approved, and so has never been introduced into the climbing community. In particular Bridwell and Hoover made several attempts to replicate the capabilities of my solo belay device and never figured it out. I call it 'The Snatch'. It reliably operates hands-off with no moving parts. I think it is also applicable for simul-climbing.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Great story and info. Thanks for sharing with Steve who was smart enough to ask, and with all of us. Any pictures or links to the "Snatch" Tom?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Tom,
If you have ANY of those old prototypes in a box somewhere THAT would be something this community would LOVE to see!
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Jimmer
Trad climber
Orland Park, IL
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If anyone is looking for a pair of the original yellow Jumars, I have a pair I am selling. They are used but in good shape.
Also have other climbing gear including Chouinard Stoppers, RP's, Wild Country Chocks/Stoppers, Crack-N-Ups, Chouinard / Leeper Hooks, and Leeper Cam Hooks.
Am also liquidating my entire collection of 500 climbing guides, many very rare and hard to find. Also, many signed such as the Conn Guide to the Needles.
Shoot me an email: jimmerson@earthlink.net.
Thanks.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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This kid's younger than his Jumars!!
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Rolfr
Social climber
North Vancouver BC
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Still have a pair, I like the blue and red stops on them to differentiate left and right. I use them almost ever week to jug the fixed lines on my projects. Probably a newer version, only 30 years old.
I backed them up with a sling through the bottom of the unit to back up the hole for the biner, but then..... the sling is as old as the jumar! I still backup any ascender with a bight in the rope ever now and then , or a grigri.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
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During the presentations at the Diamond Reflections event in Boulder this past summer Huntley Ingalls mentioned what is likely the first verified use of Jumars on a rock climb in North America in May of 1962 when Barry Corbett on assignment for National Geographic magazine covering the first ascent of the Titan showed them to Kor, Ingalls and Hurley.
Layton and Huntley were intrigued and pressed them into service while George remained skeptical and stuck to prusik slings.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 24, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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If you ordered a pair of the first Jumars to be available from Europe then here is what you would have received in the mail.
Had the instructions been intact I would have gone after these on ebay. I hope that the winner will post up here.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 29, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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Impressive Steve.
Hey, has anyone tried the new Black Diamonds? Not the new but discontinued Nforce but the Index Ascender that look like the Petzls and have only been out a couple months now.
I saw that the redesigned Petzl Ascension has a stainless cam whereas the BD has an Aluminum cam.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 25, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
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Carry a back up...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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To go along with your back ache. LOL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 30, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
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Never trust ANYTHING. under 35!
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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I still have the pair I never clipped into on the Leaning Tower back in 1965. Guess that makes them 52 years old and well-used.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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So that was you....
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Old jumar in use,
I switched to Clog ascenders when they
came out. Much more comfortable.
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