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Gene
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Studly,
Why would you jug off a pro-traxion - or any other camming device - when it is ridiculously easy to hang a prusik off the anchor to below the traxion and jug off the knot? Or anchor a bight from below the traxion directly to the anchor. Something went wrong with the traxion to allow that 15 feet of slack to run free. That's what appears to have killed the guy.
gm
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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I learned Werner everything he knows back in 1971
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Seems to me that the bottom-biner/not-fully-closed aspects seem to be the issue, not the cams or cam teeth.
I recall that Rich & co. dropped some pigs off the Trip a few years back in a similar gaffe?
No back-up, improperly used Protraxion, it's a tragedy but not an outrage. The gear should have worked fine if it was correctly used, and I'll keep jugging my haul line in the future.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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you are correct sir! I was leg hauling a lightweight stubby on the first pitch with no biner clipped into the bottom of the pro trax,(duh) the trax spun around and the button pressed up against the wall, rope came right out, the bag hit the ground. Since then I have noticed many experienced climbers not clipping biners into the bottom of the trax, including Ammon, and that instructional aid climbing video by piton Ron. etc. I think that using the mini trax on push's got me too used to not thaving to clip the bottom hole.
There go I but for the grace of Allah
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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I admit I did not know about clipping the bottom biner into the Protrax, so that is a good lesson. I also like Lambones suggestion of using a munter/kleinheist
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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Sorry to say, guilty as charged, and on the same route.
Not much of a defense. I was given a whole load of unfamiliar gear and, involved with other production details, failed to sufficiently familiarize myself with that item.
I only wish that we had had more time, or that the director had caught the glitch.
While I can see the advantage of a pre-rigged hauler, I think that my nature would dictate tying off a backup short.
Yesterday I jugged a free-hanging rope running over an edge, and I provided the rope; an eleven-and-a-half millimeter. I think that says something. I like going light, but not while jugging.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Listen to Caveman. If you want to know anything about jugging, ask a caver. Generally speaking, cavers know about 10x as much about ascending systems as your average climber. [This is because we cavers have nothing better to do with our time than perfect our jugging systems]
Caveman - what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"? At any rate, you don't use a prusik to back up a hauling device, you use a Klemheist. A prusik is a symmetric knot, and half the strands do nothing. The Klemheist is asymmetric - just wrap the loop around the rope a bunch of times and pass the end up through the top - and all the wraps grip the rope.
Pro-Trax is a piece of junk. You-all should do yourselves a favour, and throw yours away. At least be careful when using the thing so you don't end up dead, or your pig doesn't end up on the deck.
"PTPP swears by this device [the Kong Block-Roll], and he is so sure of it, he's now a reliable source for it."
Well, he's half right. I am a source, but knott all that reliable. I think the Eye-talians ship these things across the Atlantic by rowboat.
As it stands, however, I have at least ONE Block-Roll available next week, which I could ship to you from Yosemite. They sell for $160 US these days. Big and klunky - but far and away the best hauling device for hauling heavy loads, much easier to use than a pulley and inverted ascender. Contact me if you're interested.
Cheers,
Pete
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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"what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"?"
That they're not really into Nazis?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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I have to say I'm more than a little surprised at what appears to me to be confusing discussion around the technical elements which contributed to this tragedy:
a) Failure to fully close the Protraxion
b) Failure to secure the halves of the Protraxion with a biner through the lower safety holes
c) Lack of a securing the haul line off short to the anchor on the loose side of the Protraxion
d) Using a static line
e) Jugging a weighted static line
f) Jugging on a hauling device
Personally I'd say 'd' and 'e' are fairly common occurences. 'a' through 'c' are all clearly pilot error
BUT, the real mistake and #1 take away from this incident ought to be: don't jug on hauling devices! It's totally and completely unnecessary and basically defies common sense. You can rig it, but then temporarily secure it to the anchor with some prusik or klimheist variant of this (or similar) load releasing knot as many here have suggested (pretend the figure-8 in the drawing is the hauling device):
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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heck use a two to one and the traxion is only a ratchet.
I don't see a need for a fancy load release hitch. If you can raise on the traxion or what ever, you can crack the ratchet and release what ever prussickk or kliemheist that you rigged.
Load release hitches are usually used in a lower situation.
The traxion is a major component in this fatality, but I see the jugs chopping the rope as a major component too.
The point I take is don't shock load the jugs, or don't set yourself up to possibly shock load the jugs.
It's interesting to see the different takes on the same instance though.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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"BUT, the real mistake and #1 take away from this incident ought to be: don't jug on hauling devices!"
No - don't jug on a Pro-Trax, which is piece of junk. It is perfectly fine to jug on a Kong, which is rated to 5kN for "live" loads, the same as your jugs. You can use the Klemheist below it to back it up, or just tie a knot in the haul line with a bit of slack above it.
I guess I have two Kongs I could part with - one is brand new, and the other is rather used and getting tired. It's OK for hauling using a fatty 11mm rope, but it can slip a bit on skinnier-slipperier rope, and you sometimes have to push the cam closed with your thumb - caveat climbtor
I don't have my inventory in front of me, I might actually have a second new one, too.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Just a thought guys--If, as I understand it, a haul bag was on the end of the line that broke, then the line that was cut could have been under a good deal of tension when the jumars engaged the rope. As we all know ropes under tension cut very easily.
Chappy
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Well, there you go, Pete has more experience than I will ever have, but regardless - there is no way in hell I would jug directly on a hauling device under any circumstance. But that definitely falls under the 'what the hell do I know' category. Still, unnecessarily adding that type of mechanical complexity, regardless of the adequacy of the kn range, is not a very smart idea in a situation already rife with all sorts of complexity.
Also, the Protraxion failing was completely secondary in the context of its inappropriate use, setup, and lack of appropriate anchoring. And load release setups aren't just for lowering, they're for any situation where you want to get the weight off of a portion of the rope above the release setup.
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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I haven't read the entire thread but thought I should add this bit of info here.
It is possible to partially separate the two sides of a ProTrax with a biner clipped into the bottom two holes. There's a considerable amount of play here, enough to allow the “gold” side plate to rotate and leave that side of the axle unsupported if the side release button gets depressed.
It is absolutely critical that you rig your Pro Trax so it has the ability to self orient as you haul and lower out your bags. Unfortunately the rope can jump off the pulley wheel and cause the side plate to fail as you haul. I’ve watched my rope walk up the side of the pulley wheel and nearly cause failure several times because of the angle I was pulling from.
Center yourself in front of the Pro Tax and pull straight down!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Regarding jumars cutting the rope.
For what it's worth, when Ed Webster soloed the first ascent of the Primrose Dihedrals, he got a climbing rope stuck. He jumared it, then when it suddenly came loose, he survived a circa 50-foot fall onto his jumars. "My top jumar had nearly bitten through the rope’s sheath. I had to hit it with my hammer to loosen it."
Back in 1979, he would have been using a pretty fat rope, and probably original Jumar jumars.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Shappy wrote:
Just a thought guys--If, as I understand it, a haul bag was on the end of the line that broke, then the line that was cut could have been under a good deal of tension when the jumars engaged the rope. As we all know ropes under tension cut very easily.
Great point, but I think it's more the case of the whole shebang dropping 15 feet on the static line - everything came under tension together.
Which begs the question: Why in God's name was there 15 feet of slack?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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As for the fifty footer on jugs, maybe those old jugs weren't as harsh on the rope. Perhaps his body and the rope absorbed a lot of the shock, perhaps two jugs on the rope is better then one, which what they do the drop tests on?
I don't know, but avoiding a fall onto jumars/jugs what not is not a good idea.
Healyje- what I was getting at with the load release hitch is that if you have a haul set up, you can lift the load a hair to crack the ratchet so you don't have to lower anything with a LR hitch.
Talking about this stuff is way harder then showing it. If we were sitting around a campsite with ropes pulleys and gear, we'd probably agree in five minutes.
Ha Ha, of course that's not true. We'd still argue into the night.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Everyone is wrong and I am right!
Whew, now I feel like I fit into this thread.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"? At any rate, you don't use a prusik to back up a hauling device, you use a Klemheist. A prusik is a symmetric knot, and half the strands do nothing. The Klemheist is asymmetric - just wrap the loop around the rope a bunch of times and pass the end up through the top - and all the wraps grip the rope.
Well if you're going to be pedantic, you failed twice. The Prusik hitch is named after the inventor so it must be capitalized. Meanwhile the klemheist is not capitalized because it's just a description. BTW the Hedden is a better variation of the klemheist.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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Aside from this tragic accident...
I agree with Pete that the Kong Block Roll is a better hauling device. It's heavy so you pretty much need to tag it up to the leader, but other then that it is a better design.
My Pro-Trax died after just a few years of use. Somehow the whole thing got all bent out of whack and everytime I pulled the load the pulley would shave off a bunch of aluminum. That and the cam only engaged about half the time. It's in the retired bin now.
Still if you are rapping or jugging the haul line either solo or in a team of three there is no reason not to secure the line with a kleimheist knot muntered to the anchor. It only takes a minute to rig.
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