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dirhk
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 16, 2009 - 11:40am PT
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On October 17, 2008, James Welton fell to his death while climbing the Touchstone route in Zion National Park. The National Park Service subsequently conducted an investigation into the cause of the accident in cooperation with the Washington County Sherriff’s office. Their findings have been released. The three-person climbing party had climbed three pitches (approximately 180 feet) without significant event. When the member leading the fourth pitch had reached the pitch’s top anchor, he tied the end of a rope into it. The climbing party’s gear, weighing 104 pounds, was attached to the bottom end of this rope, which was to be used as a haul line. The climbing partner then ran the haul line, which was also Welton’s ascending line, through a Petzl Pro-traxion device, a pulley which incorporates a cam allowing for rope capture as rope is hauled in. The climbing partner pulled 15 feet of slack through the Pro-traxion prior to Welton starting his ascent. The group planned to haul the gear to the top of the fourth pitch after Welton, the second climber, had completed his ascent. The third party member planned to ascend a second rope, the leader’s lead climbing rope. Welton’s fall occurred when the Pro-traxion failed soon after he started to ascend the haul line. The Pro-traxion operates with a cam and pulley mounted to a fixed plate. A sliding plate allows a rope to be inserted into the device. When the sliding plate is properly closed, a button locks the device together. NPS investigators were able to reproduce the failure of the Pro-traxion during informal tests when the device was closed improperly. They noted that the device could appear to be properly closed (but not truly closed) if the device was weighted prior to the side plate sliding into place. When improperly closed, the device can deform when weighted, causing rope to move rapidly past the cam in the unintended direction. When the Pro-traxion failed, the 15 feet of slack ran rapidly through the device, causing Welton to fall this distance while still attached to the rope by his mechanical ascenders. The force generated by the fall transferred to Welton’s ascenders, which severed the rope, resulting in Welton’s tragic fatal fall. [Submitted by Ray O’Neil, Plateau District Ranger]
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 16, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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That's a terrible thing.
Such a loss.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 16, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Eww 15 feet of slack into the rope being jugged can sever it?!
Doesn't build confidence cleaning those sketchy aid traverses or lower outs.
That sucks big time..
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Gene
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Sad. I wonder if the 104 lbs. of gear at the end of the severed rope was the critical difference.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Mar 16, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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I'm with Ryan on that. Anyone know the rope size, age, type, etc?
Prod.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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A fifteen foot fall generates a pretty significant amount of force. I could certainly see one of the toothy ascenders (like Petzls) wreaking havoc on a rope when loaded with that much force. Certainly not what they were designed for.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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very tragic.
Though i feel the protraxion is a fine hauling device, i would still never consider jugging on one. also, the button is not mean to be anything except a convenience, petzl is very clear that you need to have a biner in the bottom to lock the plates.
wish me luck, i'll be hauling on a pro-trax in zion next week....
(but no plans to jug on it)
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I'm hurtin . . .
Ice climber
land of cheese and beer
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Really sad, my condolences to all involved.
Why a jugging line would not be directly off the anchor is beyond me.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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This is terrible news. I had an almost duplicate experience:
I was acting as counterweight for a haul on the NA Wall when my buddies screamed down for me to get off the haul line and on to the lead line we were using as my backup. Apparently, when they set up the pro-traxion it was not properly closed (though it looked like it). The little snap thing did not seat into its corresponding groove so the pulley wheel side began to bend and angle down... The rope was about 1 mm from jumping off of the wheel. I can't remember if we had a safety biner clipped into the bottom of it, but I don't think we did.
I've heard of others experiencing this as well. I am not a fan of the pro-traxion. Surprising that the genius that is Petzl has not addressed this yet.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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perhaps the haul/jug line was a static rope? that would increase the shock load by many fold. Yea, biner in the bottom of the pro-traxion - duh. although even if the plates didn't separate, any way the teeth could lose grip would result in same 15 foot whipper. It seems if you are going to jug a haul line you need to be extra careful and not rush things. would have been easy enough to clip in the upper tail above the protraxion but without the slack.
rip
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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That really sucks. Worst nightmare scenario. Condolences to any and all involved with the fallen climber.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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"Surprising that the genius that is Petzl has not addressed this yet."
i don't mean to belittle the tragic loss that this accident has caused, but as is usually the case, there is an element of pilot error involved.
petzl's instructions are pretty clear that the device is not safe without a biner locking the plates.
see page 2.
http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/P51%20PROTRAXION%20P51500-D.pdf
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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Bummer. Really sad news.
Add this to the number of reasons I don't use a ProTraxion.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Sad news, It would be illuminating to know what type of ascender he was using.
Not trying to be callous here, but isn't the act of jugging a weighted haul line, not backed up directly to the anchors, called a "suicide haul"?
I've heard this term for years and personally would never jug a haul line weighted with 100 extra lbs. Especially when the anchor is a hauler & not directly clipped into the anchors.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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For whatever reason, I never realized that Petzl required the use of a bottom biner to lock the two plates togather. Makes sense in retrospect and would have prevented this accident. So if some good can come out of tradedy, this would be it~ Use a bottom biner on your Pro Traxions and prevent a similar occurence.
Previously, I used a back up biner and sling in case the pulley imploded but using this biner on the bottom would prevent that, right? On do you think a back up sling is still in order?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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With the old Wall-Haulers, you could fix and let the 2nd jug the pigs line. Once they're done, to haul you clip the pulley around the rope, bend rope over the pulley, engage cam. This way the climber jugs directly off the anchor and only has the risk associated with not tying in short. Can you do this with a Pro-Traxion (I still use an old Wall Hauler)?
It sounds like at best a Pro-Traxion must be engaged first, not holding weight until the climber has jugged to the anchor.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Yeah Tim, a biner clipped into the bottom hole is critical!! I have jugged on the pro trax, but not unless I have to and my prartner and I ALWAYS back it up into the anchor, by that I mean take the excess slack of the rope and tie it off into the anchor. I also tie a prussik (sp?) with just a tid bit of slack on to the weighted side just in case the teeth on the pro-trax shred the rope.
sometimes when you haul the pro-trax the teeth will not catch, so you have to move around and get a different angle so the teeth catch, even then sometimes the teeth don't catch so you have to close the teeth manually. Anything above a 10.5 rope will not work so well in the pro-trax, the bigger the rope the more often the teeth don't catch. I have also had the rope come off the pully and slide over in between the housing and the pulley. Fikin scarry!
The pro-trax in my opinnion was made for walls in Europe like the Drew, not for huge loads like we haul on some of the harder routes on el cap.
I finally broke down and bought the Kong Block roll, it is way more burly than the pro-trax. http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/HaulingPulleyPages/HaulPulley720.html
Really the safest hauling device in my opinion is a fat ass high quality pulley and a ascender, I bought the block roll for convenience.
I have bent a pro-trax before hauling monster loads, ( and the old rock exotica hauler) and have heard of others trashing them under heavy use. I am not saying that the pro-trax is jingus, It's just that it's not made for the loads we haul, same goes for the mini-trax.
To answer your question studly, if the second is going to lower out with the pig and jug the line you should back up the rope into the anchor no matter what device you use.
And unless you are hauling light loads I would ditch the Rock exotica wall hauler, and I would never jug on it!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Jugging an engaged/weighted pro-traxion is a "Suicide Haul". You're letting an effing CAM hold yer weight. Clipping a biner on the bottom means that the hauler cannot fail one way, but it is still biting your rope.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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I concur MR.T. I would not advise others to jug on any kind of device that has teeth. with that said it doesn't mean that us valley regulars don't do it from time to time. Like I said earlier, I like to have a prussik on the weighted side just in case.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Really sad news.
Juan
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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I've used the Pro-Traxion for years- it replaced my old Rock Exotica Wall Hauler. I've always been leary of the hauling devices and do my best to make sure that the device is properly set up AND not cross-loaded or running over a bump/ obstruction. I have, while soloing, jumarred a static line rigged thru a hauler, but the rope was always tied in short just past the device....
on another note-
I've always imagined hauling a 100# haul bag on a steep wall and the device failing right before the pig reaches the anchor. Then the pig flies 150' straight down with the resultant shock load on the STATIC line ripping the anchor (and me) into the void. Anyone else ever think about this? There were a couple times I tied the haul line in short (past the hauler) when the bag was stuck and I was yarding like hell.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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http://en.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=563&Activite=23
PRO TRAXION
Technical specifications
* Breaking strenght when used as pulley only : 11 kN x 2 =22 kN.
* Working load when used as pulley only: 3 kN x 2 = 6 kN.
* Breaking strength when used as selfjamming pulley: 4 kN.
* Working load when used as self-jamming pulley: 2.5 kN.
* For use with ropes from 8 to 13 mm in diameter.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Cragnshag, the exploding pulley and resultant haul bag fall was what I was referring to in my earlier post when I stated I use a backup sling and biner below the pulley in case the pulley explodes. With a biner thru the top of the pulley and one thru the bottom hole, I don't see how that could happen however. Thats my theory, anyone dispute it?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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Not being a wall guy per se, but I can't imagine any circumstances where I'd be willing to jug directly on a protraxion or any other similar hauling gear.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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This was a tradgic event and my thoughts and prayers go out to all family and friends.
Two things I still don't get:
1. Why would anyone ever bring a static line on a wall? There's no back up line incase anything happens to your main line and like previously mentioned if anything goes wrong hauling your load from a static line is immense on your anchors.
2. Why would anyone ever jug a line off of a pulley system?
While I've used pro-traction and mini for toproping solos that's a way different dynamic than what happened here. The slippage of the ascenders w/o a top biner is also a serious heads up in my opinion.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Thanks for posting this. I remember in the previous thread, we were guessing that his ascenders slipped on the rope. Now we see that the rope slipped at the anchor point through the hauling device.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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Very sad news. My condolences to all that are effected by this.
The Pro Traxion is a fine hauling device.
It does need to be used correctly.
Jugging without the rope tied off short??? This time it was a fatal error. I Can't imagine jugging off of only a haul device... Seems abvious to me.
Sad.
Jay Renneberg
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Obvious point, but one of the takeaways is that if for whatever reason your second/third is going to jug a loaded haul line you've just set up on a pulley, make sure to tie a backup knot immediately above the pulley. I'd guess that 15 ft of slack is something the leader has thought about every day since the accident.
Condolences to all involved.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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What's horrifying about this is that it's one thing to kill yourself by screwing up,
but another thing altogether when someone else dies as a result of your mistake.
Unreal...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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It's surprising that the impact did not blow the belay - this wasn't a dynamic rope, but a static line. Unlike a lead fall, this was essentially a 300lb rock falling ~15' straight down onto the anchor. Without any give in the static line, the notion of a "fall factor" doesn't apply.
If there are bolts at the belay, they're likely fatigued.
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yu-min
climber
San Diego, california
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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i had a scary experience with the Pro-Traxion when the 9 mm (within suggested range) we were hauling with slid past the pulley and got jammed between the side plates and the pulley. Dont know how it happened but it bent the side plates a bit and damaged the rope. I took a picture and when to Return Equipment Incorporated (REI) to get a new one, but am still thinking about sending a letter to petzl
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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"Why would anyone ever bring a static line on a wall?"
Ya ever pull all the slack out of 60M dynamic?
Statics are nice for hauling...but to each their own.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Mar 16, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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Mr. T. I was on that anchor a couple weeks ago, and it is fine. Solid as the day the angles were pounded in. There also is a bolt there too if I am remembering right. It is left, just out of the photo.
The hanger on the bolt was not tight, as in perfect, but bomber bolt for sandstone. I hauled off it with the main anchor backing it up. I believe it is also the one I slept off. I am a delicate 255, and that haul hung up a little, so that bolt got tested, not to full on whipper tested, but tested none the less. If I hauled off of it then I was also solo which means I rapped that pitch on it also. I never trust my life to a single anything(rope excepted), so back em up anyhow. It is good to go.
Bob
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 16, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Whether or not the pro-traxion is a "fine hauling device" is debatable (in another thread, of course). There are a number of documented cases of it having issues, and virtually exploding under proper use. Some of those here. Do a little digging - there have been threads devoted to it here.
Many people use static lines on the wall. Many people jug the haul line. Usually it is backed up, however, to prevent such severe shock loading.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Not to second guess anyone,
but a simple prusik knot ...............
gm
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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How sad. Condolences to the family.
It is not 100% clear to me that the climber was jugging the weighted haul line. One assumes this to be the case since the weight of the pig is mentioned, but are we sure of this?
Here are the problems:
 no carabiner was clipped through the holes to hold the plates together, which was the fundamental error made by the leader
the leader also failed to tie a backup knot just above the Pro-Trax, which you should always do when you have a "live" load
The biggest problem, of course, is that the Pro-Trax is a Piece Of Sh|t. I have been telling you guys this - on this climbing forum and on others - FOR YEARS, yet in spite of my caveats, many of you have wasted money buying this thing.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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For what it's worth - the mountain shop in Yos now sells Kong Block Rolls.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Kong Block Rolls - would you rap off one with your jug/haul line held by its cam? If knott, why is this better than a backed up pulley and an inverted ascender. Does the Kong Block Roll offer something I'm missing? I’m looking for simplicity since I am a doddering old fool with a short memory.
gm
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
DC Area (it's as bad as you've heard)
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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Horrible. Unfortunately, it appears to be pilot error. Everyone be careful out there.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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I own both a Kong Block Roll and a Pro Traxion.
I use them both. When I have a monster load, the Kong owns it baby!
If I will be doing alot of free climbing, the Kong is a bit of a drag because it is heavy and clunky to carry.
Is a device good or bad? We all have opinions and as climbers, we LOVE to voice them as gospel. I know I get this way sometimes.
Typically, a system of redundancy is better choice (in my opinion). We also all know that no matter how right we do things, it may not be our to day to survive weather the gear fails or a meteor comes through our windshield while driving through a tunnel.
All we can do is use our critical thinking skills when we buy or use gear.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Any rescue or engineer types know what force it takes for a pair of ascenders to cut a rope?
I seem to recall it being very low, in the 2-4 KN range.
In this case the 15 foot fall onto the ascenders led to a cut rope, the ultimate nightmare for us climbers. It probably generated more force than that.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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The Kong Block-Roll is a superior hauling device for large loads, although it is bigger and klunkier than the ProTrax. I use it exclusively. If you need one, let me know, I will have one for sale shortly.
Tom, ascenders are typically rated for 5 kN - it takes more than that to have the cam cut the rope. A kN is about 220 lbs force, I believe.
The Kong is rated to haul 10kN loads, or 5kN 'live' loads, I think. I don't have one in front of me to look at it. It's fine to jug off of, but you should still back it up [with less than 15 feet of slack!]
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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GhoulweJ -- "All we can do is use our critical thinking skills when we buy or use gear."
Yes ....
So .... use a prussic below your haul device to load the rope if you're going to rap off your haul device with the cam engaged.
A prussic is pretty strong and has no teeth.
People should actually see how all these different devices work and operate under extreme loads and how they fail.
People put way too much trust in all these mechanical devices beyond their intended use.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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PPP- are you sure about that? The five KN is for the gear breaking I imagine.
I seem to recall the rope cut at far less then the gear. It was shocking when I heard the results, though I don't know if it was a drop test or a pull test or whether that matters. I just remember hearing the number and thinking that I better not fall on the ascenders.
Werner- do you remember at what force the petzl ascenders cut the rope? None of the other ascenders fared any better.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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I don't know Tom, I don't have the data at hand.
But .... I hate Petzl jumars. I hate them. They suck.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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tom woods wrote:
"Werner- do you remember at what force the petzl ascenders cut the rope?"
Paging Russ! Paging Russ! Fish please to the white phone.
(sounds like a good pull test for Russ)
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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Another factor that might cause the rope to be cut by ascenders is how wore down they are where the rope comes out of the ascender at the top. I just retrired my last set of jugs, they lasted about 20 walls.
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Colt
climber
Midpines
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Mar 16, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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Tom,
Very hard to calc a cutting load. This number would be best determined from testing.
However, here is a quick calc of where the fall load was compared to some manufacuter specs.
PPP is right with 5kN. Petzl Ascension ascenders, for example, are rated to hold between 4kN and 6.5kN while loaded on a rope. A climber weighing 150lbs (with a 104lb pig attached) taking a 15' factor one fall on a static line generates about 13kN.
With the assumption listed above, it appears that loading in this case was likely in the range of double to triple what manufacturs provide.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 16, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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How did you calculate that 13kN number, Colt?
Dang - even if 13kN didn't break your rope, it sure as hell would break your back.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 16, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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4kN (a measure of force) = 400kg * 10 m/s*s = the amount to accelerate a 400kg block at 10 m/ss. [Since it's been decades since physics for many] 10m/s*s is the acceleration due to gravity. 1G is the force of gravity. 4kN is force to move a rather large 100kg human at "4G's".
So above 4G's, an ascender fails. Intuitively, this is the max acceleration an ascender can sustain, above which it likely fails.
The difference between a fall onto a static and dynamic line is like slamming on the breaks in your car, vs slowly easing them on - in both cases you do the same work, but one has a higher maximum force.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 16, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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And to follow up, there is no "fall factor" here - the static rope is not dissipating energy. At best, it's a fall factor 1,000,000 - very little rope dissipation vs distance the climber has fallen.
Think of this fall as the dissipation of energy by a system over time. The energy of the falling climber and bag is transferred to the climber's body, the haul bag, the anchor, a very little to the static rope. Again this is a transfer of energy over time - performing work. (This is not an transfer of momentum like in high school physics.) Failure happens once the force exceeds a maximum force threshold of 4kN.
This particular fall is a 50-100kg (110-220lb) man onto a static line that catches a 40kg haul bag. There is not much to dissipate energy in this system (the climber's vertebrae and organs, the haul bag stitching, and ruptured water bottles inside the bag may be the best). There is a tremendous maximum acceleration (and force) on the ascender's cam. Above a certain threshold (4kN), the rope cuts. Since the rope is already loaded by the haul bags, it likely cuts at a lower threshold than an unloaded line (3kN).
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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I just remembered where I might have that cutting info with jugs. I'll see what I can dig up once the kid falls asleep.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Okay, I went and looked. The info I had in writing was for an old gibbs ascender which broke the rope at close to 9KN.
So here's the question for you physics guys. If an ascender cuts the rope at 5Kn, how far does a guy have to fall on ascenbers to cut the rope?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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The Kong Block Roll is strong enough to not have this sort of issue. The ratchet is a jumar-type device, and the pulley is hella strong on a 3/8" axle, and about 3 inches diameter for good efficiency.
PTPP swears by this device, and he is so sure of it, he's now a reliable source for it.
Those weak hauling devices have been inviting disaster for a long time, and, here it came.
I thought the Wall Hauler would be the first to claim a fatality, but even the Pro-Traxion isn't up to the task.
KONG BLOCK ROLL - A very strong device, weight be damned.
At what point is saving weight the main issue? I want safety.
Dr. Johnson
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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"But .... I hate Petzl jumars. I hate them. They suck. "
Well as a guy who probably spends a lot of time on jumars - what do you like...?
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Smack
Trad climber
Utah
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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I remember that the original post describing this terrible tragedy mentioned that the haul bag fell to the ground along with the climber. This suggests that he was jugging a line weighted with the haul bags. Sad sad sad.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Mar 17, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Any piece of equipment that is not used correctly can fail.
This isn't a case of a bad design, but rather using a piece of equipment (Protrax) incorrectly and with no backup. Same thing could have happened to any other pulley system, including the Kong Block roll or whatever it is called.
Even if you soloing there is no reason to rap off a hauling device. Just tie off the haul line, below the device and then do a mini haul to re engage the cam. There is no need for any trickery. Its dead easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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John Mac
Why tie off the haul line below the device and then do a mini haul?
Just put a prussic there. Simple, ... and you don't have to do any mini haul, just start hauling again and it's strong.
Healyje, For rock jumaring the old grey original jumars were the best, although kinda weak. But they were fast and efficient to maneuver with.
I now use CMI Ultrascender because YOSAR does not allow use of the gray jumars. The saftey trigger mechanism of the CMI Ultrascender sucks for efficiency though!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 17, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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really awful news, but two mistakes, what can you do?
No energy to read it all or anaalize, I gues I am pretty much done in myself, but the idea of theextra 100 pounds plus 15 feet of slack plus improper closing of pro-traxion plus toothed ascenders apparently was too much.
damn still that sucks bad.
I had ( now shannon has em ) rescue ascenders from Austrailia, non-toothed, but my pro-taxion has teeth and one could certainly screw up and not close it correctly. Damn damn damn.
Every time is like the first time, get it right every time and forget about " oh I've done this a lot, what can happen?" , please.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Mar 17, 2009 - 03:44am PT
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why is the pro traxion even being mentioned? i mean, i know...but i can still ask right. it was miss-used and cannot be asked to perform if being asked the wrong way.
if someone ties into the rope the wrong way (even if is Looks almost right) - is the particular rope they used brought up? never!
could these people have set up a roll block wrong? probably so.
it's a tragedy, a shame and will impact some folks big time... but i hardly see this as a protraxion issue.
imo...
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 17, 2009 - 07:18am PT
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Lets see if I've got this right........
1 Don't use protraxion
2 Don't use any ascender with 'teeth'
3 Don't hang your butt on anything with a cam
4 Don't listen to rock climbers when it comes to ascending or descending ropes!
Forget about 1 2 and 3. 4 is the ticket.
Petzl jumars lol
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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The mistake on the traxion led to a 15 foot fall, isn't necessarily enough to kill you.
This isn't a traxion only failure, the guy had a back up knot that caught. It was the combination of the jugs and the traxion.
The jugs had to catch a bigger force then they can catch, and cut the rope.
Now I'm all worried about those darn jugs. Say you're climbing in a party of three, so one guy is jugging a free line. Say it's an over hanging climb so you attach your jugs to the free line and rather then lower out you decide to jump of the ledge for shits and giggles. If there's stretch or worse, slack, you could put some force on those jugs.
What sort of shock load does it take to generate 5KN?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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I recall details of this from an earlier report.
The haul rope he was using was very thin - 9mm or so (PMI?).
Correct me if I'm wrong.
9mm is just too thin. Walls beat the sh#t out of haul lines. The toothed ascender/hauler type devices don't help. Also, the thinner the rope, the smaller the surface area the teeth are spread across, making things even worse.
Interesting fail mode on the device, for sure. I don't like the design of that thing. Doesn't seem to constrain the pulley axle very well.
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Fishy
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Lots of talk about the fall factors and static lines as if "static line" can only be one thing.
There are HUGE variations in the elasticity of static lines. Some are made only of nylon, to ensure that they have a little stretch. Some are thicker, others are thinner, different weaves, sheaths etc etc.
I remember seeing some numbers which showed that the elongation of a few static lines tested fell around 10-20% of the climbing ropes used in the comparison - this would correspond with fall factors being in the region of 5-10x higher using a quick rule of thumb.
But these numbers are only fuzzy recollections - the only way to know for sure is to look up how stretchy YOUR specific rope is.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Wall climbing in the continental U.S. is probably the only variation of climbing where time and weight are not an issue. It seems like almost every (non-storm) accident on walls involves either some kind of jugging mistake or leap frogging pieces, often resulting from an effort to save time or weight.
To me, jugging a loaded haul line off of a hauling device just seems unnecessary and intuitively wrong, regardless of what the engineering says. Weird things happen when systems get jolted.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 17, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Some here don't like the Petzl ascenders so now you have the BD N-force ascenders. Wonder if they are 'YOSAR approved'?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 17, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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[I use a 8mm static for hauling, I'm not anti-static line.]
The question this: a climber + bag fell ~15' onto a static line (unknown diameter - 9mm?) and the line cut. The age and condition of the line are unknown. The weight of the climber is unknown. How much force was on the ascender when it cut and was it within the 5kN failure range specified by the manufacturer?
Any engineering types out there? A static line has between %10 to %20 of the working elongation of a dynamic. A 10.5 dynamic runs in the %5-%8 range. So for a static estimate %15 of %6 - we'll round it up to %1 working elongation.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 17, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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Also a question for WBraun types - has a climber ever cut a dynamic rope by falling onto ascenders. Not ascenders popped off (I've read of this several times), but the rope cut. Has this ever happened?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 17, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath,
I don't know why you think wall climbing has no constraints on speed and weight. Hard aid climbing can be very time consuming, but I don't know anyone that intentially takes extra weight or extra time on a wall. It's all a balance, the longer you plan to take the more food and water you take, which means more weight to hall, which means more time on the wall.
I think you'll find most successful teams carry as little gear as possible and climb as fast as possible. Yes, progress is upwards (or downwards) of an order of magnitude slower than the speed ascents, but still every bit of gear taken needs to be hauled that 3000'.
To me the real issue is many folks have little appreciation for the potential downfalls of their shortcuts. Jugging may seem relatively safe, but when you add in factors that decrease the safety factor, reportedly a thin line, added weight of pig, jug line being held by an ascender type deviced and then a 15 foot fall, a failure was pretty much and very sadly guranteed.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 17, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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"but I don't know anyone that intentially takes extra weight or extra time on a wall."
hahaha Don't get out much, do ya! There's Pete, for starters! He's pretty much the poster boy of that mentality! lol
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 17, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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I don't know who this is, but they do seem concerned about haul bag weight.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Mar 17, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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Must be Canucks. Those dudes always put a high priority in fine brews!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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Gotta love hauling your own firewood...
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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All I know is that I've been pi$$ed I did not bring enough beer on a wall climb and have discussed the necessity of each piece of gear before starting an alpine route. On walls, I just don't get what's to be gained by doing things like jummaring loaded 9 mils.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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How much force for how big a fall?
Equate the work done by the fall to the work done stopping the fall.
F is force on the ascender
m * g * fall_distance = F * stop_distance
But really, your body absorbs some force:
m * g * fall_distance = F * stop_distance + body_absorption * stop_distance
F = m * g * fall_distance / (stop distance) - body_absorption
stop_distance = rope_out * working_elongation
F = m * g * fall_distance / (rope out * working elongation) - body_absorb
In this case (5m fall, 50m of rope out).
F = 70 * 10 * 5 / (50 * 0.01) - body_absorp = 7000kN - what your body absorbs
So, yeah, I'd guess he got around 4kN on a 9mm static that was already absorbing a dropped haul bag.
My guess is that rope elongation and body absorption are non-linear, so you don't cut a rope in a 1' bounce. Above 30' (ie your body doesn't absorb a fall too well and won't absorb energy) expect a cut line. It all depends on how well your body absorbs a fall. A block of granite bolted to an ascender that falls 1m should cut the line (for those of you who do such things).
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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jugging a haulrope off a protrax is a really bad idea. this sucks.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Can one still buy the yellow jumars?
I have Gibbs but if Werner thinks they are crap I need something else.
Juan
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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There's got to be allot of other climbers out there who jug a protraxion with the haul bag free hanging. 3 person parties and soloists. The protraxion didnt fail, it was the jumars that cut the rope.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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yeah but the cam in a pro-trax is essentially the same as the cams in the jumars that cut the rope. still a bad idea. even if the pully doesn't fail, it can't be good for the rope. Plus isn't it scary to know the skinny chord your life is dangeling on is getting crushed by a sharped toothed cam? No thanks...
the smarter way is to hang the load off a klimheist knot munter muled to the anchor just below the pully. that way the hauling device isn't loaded. Once the jugger is up you can cut the load release knot to weight the hauler.
thanks to werner for that beta.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Studly,
Why would you jug off a pro-traxion - or any other camming device - when it is ridiculously easy to hang a prusik off the anchor to below the traxion and jug off the knot? Or anchor a bight from below the traxion directly to the anchor. Something went wrong with the traxion to allow that 15 feet of slack to run free. That's what appears to have killed the guy.
gm
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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I learned Werner everything he knows back in 1971
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Mar 17, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Seems to me that the bottom-biner/not-fully-closed aspects seem to be the issue, not the cams or cam teeth.
I recall that Rich & co. dropped some pigs off the Trip a few years back in a similar gaffe?
No back-up, improperly used Protraxion, it's a tragedy but not an outrage. The gear should have worked fine if it was correctly used, and I'll keep jugging my haul line in the future.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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you are correct sir! I was leg hauling a lightweight stubby on the first pitch with no biner clipped into the bottom of the pro trax,(duh) the trax spun around and the button pressed up against the wall, rope came right out, the bag hit the ground. Since then I have noticed many experienced climbers not clipping biners into the bottom of the trax, including Ammon, and that instructional aid climbing video by piton Ron. etc. I think that using the mini trax on push's got me too used to not thaving to clip the bottom hole.
There go I but for the grace of Allah
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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I admit I did not know about clipping the bottom biner into the Protrax, so that is a good lesson. I also like Lambones suggestion of using a munter/kleinheist
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 17, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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Sorry to say, guilty as charged, and on the same route.
Not much of a defense. I was given a whole load of unfamiliar gear and, involved with other production details, failed to sufficiently familiarize myself with that item.
I only wish that we had had more time, or that the director had caught the glitch.
While I can see the advantage of a pre-rigged hauler, I think that my nature would dictate tying off a backup short.
Yesterday I jugged a free-hanging rope running over an edge, and I provided the rope; an eleven-and-a-half millimeter. I think that says something. I like going light, but not while jugging.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Listen to Caveman. If you want to know anything about jugging, ask a caver. Generally speaking, cavers know about 10x as much about ascending systems as your average climber. [This is because we cavers have nothing better to do with our time than perfect our jugging systems]
Caveman - what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"? At any rate, you don't use a prusik to back up a hauling device, you use a Klemheist. A prusik is a symmetric knot, and half the strands do nothing. The Klemheist is asymmetric - just wrap the loop around the rope a bunch of times and pass the end up through the top - and all the wraps grip the rope.
Pro-Trax is a piece of junk. You-all should do yourselves a favour, and throw yours away. At least be careful when using the thing so you don't end up dead, or your pig doesn't end up on the deck.
"PTPP swears by this device [the Kong Block-Roll], and he is so sure of it, he's now a reliable source for it."
Well, he's half right. I am a source, but knott all that reliable. I think the Eye-talians ship these things across the Atlantic by rowboat.
As it stands, however, I have at least ONE Block-Roll available next week, which I could ship to you from Yosemite. They sell for $160 US these days. Big and klunky - but far and away the best hauling device for hauling heavy loads, much easier to use than a pulley and inverted ascender. Contact me if you're interested.
Cheers,
Pete
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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"what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"?"
That they're not really into Nazis?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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I have to say I'm more than a little surprised at what appears to me to be confusing discussion around the technical elements which contributed to this tragedy:
a) Failure to fully close the Protraxion
b) Failure to secure the halves of the Protraxion with a biner through the lower safety holes
c) Lack of a securing the haul line off short to the anchor on the loose side of the Protraxion
d) Using a static line
e) Jugging a weighted static line
f) Jugging on a hauling device
Personally I'd say 'd' and 'e' are fairly common occurences. 'a' through 'c' are all clearly pilot error
BUT, the real mistake and #1 take away from this incident ought to be: don't jug on hauling devices! It's totally and completely unnecessary and basically defies common sense. You can rig it, but then temporarily secure it to the anchor with some prusik or klimheist variant of this (or similar) load releasing knot as many here have suggested (pretend the figure-8 in the drawing is the hauling device):
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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heck use a two to one and the traxion is only a ratchet.
I don't see a need for a fancy load release hitch. If you can raise on the traxion or what ever, you can crack the ratchet and release what ever prussickk or kliemheist that you rigged.
Load release hitches are usually used in a lower situation.
The traxion is a major component in this fatality, but I see the jugs chopping the rope as a major component too.
The point I take is don't shock load the jugs, or don't set yourself up to possibly shock load the jugs.
It's interesting to see the different takes on the same instance though.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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"BUT, the real mistake and #1 take away from this incident ought to be: don't jug on hauling devices!"
No - don't jug on a Pro-Trax, which is piece of junk. It is perfectly fine to jug on a Kong, which is rated to 5kN for "live" loads, the same as your jugs. You can use the Klemheist below it to back it up, or just tie a knot in the haul line with a bit of slack above it.
I guess I have two Kongs I could part with - one is brand new, and the other is rather used and getting tired. It's OK for hauling using a fatty 11mm rope, but it can slip a bit on skinnier-slipperier rope, and you sometimes have to push the cam closed with your thumb - caveat climbtor
I don't have my inventory in front of me, I might actually have a second new one, too.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Just a thought guys--If, as I understand it, a haul bag was on the end of the line that broke, then the line that was cut could have been under a good deal of tension when the jumars engaged the rope. As we all know ropes under tension cut very easily.
Chappy
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Well, there you go, Pete has more experience than I will ever have, but regardless - there is no way in hell I would jug directly on a hauling device under any circumstance. But that definitely falls under the 'what the hell do I know' category. Still, unnecessarily adding that type of mechanical complexity, regardless of the adequacy of the kn range, is not a very smart idea in a situation already rife with all sorts of complexity.
Also, the Protraxion failing was completely secondary in the context of its inappropriate use, setup, and lack of appropriate anchoring. And load release setups aren't just for lowering, they're for any situation where you want to get the weight off of a portion of the rope above the release setup.
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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I haven't read the entire thread but thought I should add this bit of info here.
It is possible to partially separate the two sides of a ProTrax with a biner clipped into the bottom two holes. There's a considerable amount of play here, enough to allow the “gold” side plate to rotate and leave that side of the axle unsupported if the side release button gets depressed.
It is absolutely critical that you rig your Pro Trax so it has the ability to self orient as you haul and lower out your bags. Unfortunately the rope can jump off the pulley wheel and cause the side plate to fail as you haul. I’ve watched my rope walk up the side of the pulley wheel and nearly cause failure several times because of the angle I was pulling from.
Center yourself in front of the Pro Tax and pull straight down!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Regarding jumars cutting the rope.
For what it's worth, when Ed Webster soloed the first ascent of the Primrose Dihedrals, he got a climbing rope stuck. He jumared it, then when it suddenly came loose, he survived a circa 50-foot fall onto his jumars. "My top jumar had nearly bitten through the rope’s sheath. I had to hit it with my hammer to loosen it."
Back in 1979, he would have been using a pretty fat rope, and probably original Jumar jumars.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Shappy wrote:
Just a thought guys--If, as I understand it, a haul bag was on the end of the line that broke, then the line that was cut could have been under a good deal of tension when the jumars engaged the rope. As we all know ropes under tension cut very easily.
Great point, but I think it's more the case of the whole shebang dropping 15 feet on the static line - everything came under tension together.
Which begs the question: Why in God's name was there 15 feet of slack?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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As for the fifty footer on jugs, maybe those old jugs weren't as harsh on the rope. Perhaps his body and the rope absorbed a lot of the shock, perhaps two jugs on the rope is better then one, which what they do the drop tests on?
I don't know, but avoiding a fall onto jumars/jugs what not is not a good idea.
Healyje- what I was getting at with the load release hitch is that if you have a haul set up, you can lift the load a hair to crack the ratchet so you don't have to lower anything with a LR hitch.
Talking about this stuff is way harder then showing it. If we were sitting around a campsite with ropes pulleys and gear, we'd probably agree in five minutes.
Ha Ha, of course that's not true. We'd still argue into the night.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Everyone is wrong and I am right!
Whew, now I feel like I fit into this thread.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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what can you say when nobody on this forum even knows how to spell "prusik"? At any rate, you don't use a prusik to back up a hauling device, you use a Klemheist. A prusik is a symmetric knot, and half the strands do nothing. The Klemheist is asymmetric - just wrap the loop around the rope a bunch of times and pass the end up through the top - and all the wraps grip the rope.
Well if you're going to be pedantic, you failed twice. The Prusik hitch is named after the inventor so it must be capitalized. Meanwhile the klemheist is not capitalized because it's just a description. BTW the Hedden is a better variation of the klemheist.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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Aside from this tragic accident...
I agree with Pete that the Kong Block Roll is a better hauling device. It's heavy so you pretty much need to tag it up to the leader, but other then that it is a better design.
My Pro-Trax died after just a few years of use. Somehow the whole thing got all bent out of whack and everytime I pulled the load the pulley would shave off a bunch of aluminum. That and the cam only engaged about half the time. It's in the retired bin now.
Still if you are rapping or jugging the haul line either solo or in a team of three there is no reason not to secure the line with a kleimheist knot muntered to the anchor. It only takes a minute to rig.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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lots of good info/food for thought here. thanks
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Regarding Protraxion rigging:
I don't clip mine directly into the anchor, rather, I have fixed a loop of webbing tied through the top biner hole and I clip a biner into that webbing loop. Thus, the Traxion can always sit in a vertical orientation. (Some biners will tend to cant the device to one side due to the HMS shape.) It had occurred to me that any kind of uneven (i.e. non-vertical) orientation could really exacerbate the situation, sliding the rope to one side of the pulley. Anyone else concerned about these issues?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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"It is possible to partially separate the two sides of a ProTrax with a biner clipped into the bottom two holes. There's a considerable amount of play here, enough to allow the “gold” side plate to rotate and leave that side of the axle unsupported if the side release button gets depressed.
It is absolutely critical that you rig your Pro Trax so it has the ability to self orient as you haul and lower out your bags. Unfortunately the rope can jump off the pulley wheel and cause the side plate to fail as you haul. I’ve watched my rope walk up the side of the pulley wheel and nearly cause failure several times because of the angle I was pulling from."
That's because it's a fukkin' piece of junk!
Petzl really ought to take that crap off the market, and invent a better one. It's not freakin' rocket science, it's a pulley and a cam! Duh.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 19, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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I can't help but thinking theres got to be a better system though here? What does Ammon do on 3 man speed ascents?
Skinny tag line? Separate 3rd just jugging line?
Just tie knots below the hauler? With a lighter bag and grunt it?
I've never done a 3 man push.
It seems it might make some sense for the leader to just fix the lines and continue short fixing himself while the first second jugs with extra rack and then sets up the haul while the 3rd cleans? The only reason we're talking about having to jug on protraction here is for speed tactics. Hmmm I guess having that haul bag free with the guy jugging on it is probably fastest.
Sloan, Coiler, CMac?
P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist.
Not quoiting fancy study numbers and tests, just what the AMGA and Canadian mountain guide curriculum teaches.
In this scenarios regard and in general I personally prefer the klemheist because it is easier to setup and break down and still delivers a reliable holding power.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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"P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist."
This is counter-intuitive to me. The prusik is symmetric, and it seems to me that half the wraps are doing nothing. But adding wraps to the asymmetric klemheist appears to increase its holding strength.
Where does your info come from? It doesn't seem to hold true with my experience, so I'm curious.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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Ryan Tetz,
On our three man push of Zodiac we just fixed the hauline hard to the power point with a figure 8 for the third to jug. Then we muscled the pig up into the Pro-Trax after they were up. Pig only weighed about 30-40lbs though...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 19, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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"P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist."
This is counter-intuitive to me. The prusik is symmetric, and it seems to me that half the wraps are doing nothing. But adding wraps to the asymmetric klemheist appears to increase its holding strength.
Where does your info come from? It doesn't seem to hold true with my experience, so I'm curious.
All the testing I've seen and done shows the klemheist grips better than a Prusik, And an upside-down klemheist (Hedden Hitch) grips even better. Autoblocks are way down on the list, virtually worthless if the sling is too long.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Capo Beach
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Mar 20, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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"What does Ammon do on 3 man speed ascents?
Yes, it's true I seldom clip the bottom hole of a Pro-Traction... but, I NEVER fix a line through ANY device for someone to jumar on. It's very easy for the third to jug the line on lockers and then re-rig for the haul. I don't consider this wasting extra time as long as the leader is still moving upward.
Sorry to hear about the sad news.
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coiler
Trad climber
The Rock Monkey Ranch
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First off, I will NEVER myself, or have a parter EVER jug a loaded haul line. I will always have another line (10.5 stratos)for the third man, that can also be used as a second lead line. One rope for each member of the team. Two people, two ropes; three people three ropes etc, etc. Skimping in the rope dept. is a recipe for disaster.
Third man jugs his lead line to the anchor and helps the previous leader haul the bags by counterweighting the haul line WHILE belaying himself with the next lead line he is clipped into. When the haul is done, he starts his lead on his independent lead line that has been separated from the systems on the pitch below. Viola!
Also, with climbing on a three man team. Take a REAL pully and an ACTUAL cam to go with it, for Wall loads, not a pulley designed to haul a light backpack in the mountains. Wall haulers and all those other CUTE "hauling" devices are junk. In the past I have "opened" a few wall haulers. They realy can't take as much of a load as you'd like to believe. I use the Petzl purple and blue pulley with a separate cam as my haul system. Believe me, climbing with two gorillas and more beer than we will probably need, plus all the extras. It's a good feeling to know, that sh*t will hold the load!
Don't skimp. So your backpack is a little heavier... in the end, it's good training for something, isn't it?
Watching your partner, or any other person die on a wall is tragic. My condolences to the party involved in the Zion accident. Stay strong guys!
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