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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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lots of good info/food for thought here. thanks
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Regarding Protraxion rigging:
I don't clip mine directly into the anchor, rather, I have fixed a loop of webbing tied through the top biner hole and I clip a biner into that webbing loop. Thus, the Traxion can always sit in a vertical orientation. (Some biners will tend to cant the device to one side due to the HMS shape.) It had occurred to me that any kind of uneven (i.e. non-vertical) orientation could really exacerbate the situation, sliding the rope to one side of the pulley. Anyone else concerned about these issues?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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"It is possible to partially separate the two sides of a ProTrax with a biner clipped into the bottom two holes. There's a considerable amount of play here, enough to allow the “gold” side plate to rotate and leave that side of the axle unsupported if the side release button gets depressed.
It is absolutely critical that you rig your Pro Trax so it has the ability to self orient as you haul and lower out your bags. Unfortunately the rope can jump off the pulley wheel and cause the side plate to fail as you haul. I’ve watched my rope walk up the side of the pulley wheel and nearly cause failure several times because of the angle I was pulling from."
That's because it's a fukkin' piece of junk!
Petzl really ought to take that crap off the market, and invent a better one. It's not freakin' rocket science, it's a pulley and a cam! Duh.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 19, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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I can't help but thinking theres got to be a better system though here? What does Ammon do on 3 man speed ascents?
Skinny tag line? Separate 3rd just jugging line?
Just tie knots below the hauler? With a lighter bag and grunt it?
I've never done a 3 man push.
It seems it might make some sense for the leader to just fix the lines and continue short fixing himself while the first second jugs with extra rack and then sets up the haul while the 3rd cleans? The only reason we're talking about having to jug on protraction here is for speed tactics. Hmmm I guess having that haul bag free with the guy jugging on it is probably fastest.
Sloan, Coiler, CMac?
P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist.
Not quoiting fancy study numbers and tests, just what the AMGA and Canadian mountain guide curriculum teaches.
In this scenarios regard and in general I personally prefer the klemheist because it is easier to setup and break down and still delivers a reliable holding power.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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"P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist."
This is counter-intuitive to me. The prusik is symmetric, and it seems to me that half the wraps are doing nothing. But adding wraps to the asymmetric klemheist appears to increase its holding strength.
Where does your info come from? It doesn't seem to hold true with my experience, so I'm curious.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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Ryan Tetz,
On our three man push of Zodiac we just fixed the hauline hard to the power point with a figure 8 for the third to jug. Then we muscled the pig up into the Pro-Trax after they were up. Pig only weighed about 30-40lbs though...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 19, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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"P.S. I hate finger pointing, but the holding power of a prusik knot is higher than the holding power of a klemheist. Prusik bites the hardest, next being the klemheist, then the autoblock. Ur basic 3 friction hitches used by climbers. The bachman fits in there just below the klemheist."
This is counter-intuitive to me. The prusik is symmetric, and it seems to me that half the wraps are doing nothing. But adding wraps to the asymmetric klemheist appears to increase its holding strength.
Where does your info come from? It doesn't seem to hold true with my experience, so I'm curious.
All the testing I've seen and done shows the klemheist grips better than a Prusik, And an upside-down klemheist (Hedden Hitch) grips even better. Autoblocks are way down on the list, virtually worthless if the sling is too long.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Capo Beach
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Mar 20, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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"What does Ammon do on 3 man speed ascents?
Yes, it's true I seldom clip the bottom hole of a Pro-Traction... but, I NEVER fix a line through ANY device for someone to jumar on. It's very easy for the third to jug the line on lockers and then re-rig for the haul. I don't consider this wasting extra time as long as the leader is still moving upward.
Sorry to hear about the sad news.
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coiler
Trad climber
The Rock Monkey Ranch
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First off, I will NEVER myself, or have a parter EVER jug a loaded haul line. I will always have another line (10.5 stratos)for the third man, that can also be used as a second lead line. One rope for each member of the team. Two people, two ropes; three people three ropes etc, etc. Skimping in the rope dept. is a recipe for disaster.
Third man jugs his lead line to the anchor and helps the previous leader haul the bags by counterweighting the haul line WHILE belaying himself with the next lead line he is clipped into. When the haul is done, he starts his lead on his independent lead line that has been separated from the systems on the pitch below. Viola!
Also, with climbing on a three man team. Take a REAL pully and an ACTUAL cam to go with it, for Wall loads, not a pulley designed to haul a light backpack in the mountains. Wall haulers and all those other CUTE "hauling" devices are junk. In the past I have "opened" a few wall haulers. They realy can't take as much of a load as you'd like to believe. I use the Petzl purple and blue pulley with a separate cam as my haul system. Believe me, climbing with two gorillas and more beer than we will probably need, plus all the extras. It's a good feeling to know, that sh*t will hold the load!
Don't skimp. So your backpack is a little heavier... in the end, it's good training for something, isn't it?
Watching your partner, or any other person die on a wall is tragic. My condolences to the party involved in the Zion accident. Stay strong guys!
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