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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I too want to be like Mulder...I want to believe.
And I have heard of scientists measuring monks that can make their heart rate very low, and change body temperature a few degrees through meditation. These things I can understand, as they involve working with one's own body.
Telepathy or telekinesis is a different deal, and until I see it done under controlled conditions, might as well be Penn & Teller doing it.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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"A sincere man can step off the cliff and never hit the bottom ...."
This could really change the face of BASEjumping. Who's first!?!?!?!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I don't know about this particular instance, but I've met a few, very rare, people with HUGE, powerful energy fields.
As sort of a "Double Blind" example, I was outside the lower floor bookstore of this ashram and people I couldn't see were passing overhead on a catwalk. Suddenly I felt what felt like an intense electromagnetic sort of energy pass overhead. Unmistakable.
It was so vivid that I ran out to see what it was. The Master had just walked overhead.
This was almost 30 years ago. He's gone now.
Peace
Karl
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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My wife spent time in Tibet and witnessed monks driving nails into boards and moving objects with their chi. So sure, anything is possible, but lets put the claim through some rigourous testing with some actual full contact fighting to see if it works. That shouldn't be too hard to do.
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J. Werlin
climber
Cedaredge
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I see the Master's "powers" more as a side effect or
manifestation of the spiritual work he is doing, rather
than a sought after result.
Perhaps the intended lesson here is more along the lines of
expanding our consciousness rather than creating the
next Vegas side-show act.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
2 exits North of the Gunks
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Hi Gang,
So I sent these tapes to my friend, "DK", who has been practicing tai chi seriously for 35 years. He's been all over the world studying.
Me: I found these fascinating. My wife is very skeptical of the “action at a distance” demonstration – it looks like “the force.”
DK: she should be. my teacher was a famous debunker back in taiwan, and all the guys who could throw ch'i like that ran away from him. to the ones who didn't run away, he would say "Do it to me." they would reply, "I can't. your ch'is too strong." meanwhile, his teacher flipped him around like a rag doll. kim, believe me, the world of tai chi and chi is wonderful enough without the touch-less martial stuff. it's bogus.
Best, Kim
Edited to add: Least there be confusion from my earlier post. I've been pushed so that I hopped across the floor, but by being touched. (Actually one of the defining moments of my life) But not with "action at a distance." AND once, just once, I was able to push someone so as to uproot them - also by touching them. (Also a defining moment of my life.)
The competition for students is pretty intense. When I was studying there was a lot of talk of "who's best" etc.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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What's interesting to me is the man's crafty adaptation of the Heart Sutra. Strange, becauce I just heard a dharma talk on the Heart Sutra last night. No sh#t.
JL
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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And so far, nobody has even managed to help me see a really good dragon
Perhaps what is important is not dragons, but the possibility of dragons.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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[Massive Post Warning -- think PgDn key]
I just watched the four video frags. I was at once fascinated, and like many on this thread, somewhat disbelieving. The 'black belt' just didn't seem to go at him hard enough.
Watching it brought to mind a friend of mind. He has been studying Aikido for many years. He is insanely strong and quick, and also a nuclear physicist at perhaps the best outfit in the world.
I had looked up the basics of Aikido (I myself have never studied a martial art), I knew it was a defensive tradition. But I asked this friend to explain the heart of it to me.
He showed me an old grainy B&W film (on a VHS tape) from the late fifties or early sixties. It showed Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, “defending” his discipline against the other eastern martial art disciplines of the day. This was apparently a big deal, as martial arts and all things eastern were becoming big in the west, and with big came big money. The established historical traditions, centuries old, were quite serious about not letting any newcomer just show up and call their variant a true tradition.
So this video was a record of the major, well known, and ancient schools of eastern martial arts “putting Aikido to the test.” Up to that point, all other recent traditions had been demolished in these ‘tests.
So there is Morihei Ueshiba, frail and i think in his early seventies, up against a whole lineup of the most ripped and skilled representatives of the famous ancient traditions. And it was the job of these ripped experts to, well, take his head off. Not kill him, of course, but hammer him so hard and so quickly as to leave no doubt that his new school didn’t cut it.
It was amazing to watch. This guy was tiny and skinny, old and obviously rather frail. And the 8 or so studs who went up against him were ripped like, well a young Largo. And while each of them bowed to him with respect, they immediately went at him with what even I could see was full on, highly skilled violence. Pretty much any of those attempts would have snapped me in two.
And this old guy just stood there, calmly, looking almost bored, deflecting full on crushing kicks from guys a third his age and twice his size with no more than the back of his hand. He just kind of re-directed all of their massive energy with this fay wave of the hand that looked no stronger than what the current Queen Elizeabeth in her dotage might do. All eight of them, one after another.
And in this old B&W video, there was absolutely no question (to my mind, and I am confident to yours when you see it) that his attackers weren’t faking anything. They’d come at him with lightning fast punches to his head, and huge snap kicks to his torso, and end up flying past him and hitting the floor behind him _ hard _. Some of them got up clearly pissed and embarrassed and went at him with even more violence – and again ended up spinning across the floor with their shirts up over their heads and their faces all red. This was not a polite demonstration at some college in england. This was true masters attempting to defend the traditions they had devoted their lives to.
In the end (though not on the tape) Aikido was quietly accepted by all of the major ancient traditions as a genuine and unique form.
~~~
This buddy of mine is now a, uh, I don’t know how high a dan. I do know that he has for years had to fly to Japan to test for the next belt/dan. In recent years he stopped caring about rank.
~~~
That and I once saw his training and tradition in action. Back in the late 90’s he and I and our sweethearts were walking home from a goth party in a rather desolate and scary part of the outer SOMA in SF. The ladies where dressed to the nines, in high spike heels, long tight dresses, and much mascara.
We headed towards my car (me hoping it was still there – but as it was a POS I figured who’d bother). As we walked down the sidewalk a beer bottle (green, I’m thinking Rolling Rock – this wasn’t a Heineken neighborhood) went sailing inches in front of the face of both ladies and smashed on the brick wall beside them, leaving them rather beer splattered.
My pal and I turn and see this very big guy absolutely frothing at the mouth and holding yet another green beer bottle. My pal says to me “go slow this freak down while I get Rebecca and Abby out of here” and with that he hustles our dates off.
Great, now what. So I use my best weapon, my sharp irish tongue. I walk up to this guy and say “Excuse me, sir, someone just threw a beer bottle at my sweetheart’s head. Did you see who did this?”
And this guy is positively snaked. His eyes and the veins in his neck are all bulging out. I’d seen that look before -- PCP and crystal meth. An ugly combo, not recommended. He hisses at me “I didn’t do it!” and I say “Of course you didn’t, you are obviously a gentleman – I was just wondering if you saw the jerk who did do it. they are women after all, and that’s just not right.”
Meanwhile, my pal had hustled the ladies to a gay dance club a few doors down and left them inside, telling one of the patrons, in brief, what was up and to look after them. This patron and his pals said absolutely.
With this my pal is quick standing behind me – only I don’t know this just yet. I’m still trying to buy time. But at this point this mutant is clearly loosing it and says “So what the F##k if I did do it, what’r’you going do about it? And with this he takes this huge roundhouse swing at me. If it had connected, I wouldn’t be here to write this. But he was so hammered that it came in like slow motion and I was able to duck and run.
At this my pal (who I just then noticed) walks up to within 2 feet of this mutant and says “You threw that bottle, didn’t you?” And the mutant says “No!” then he says “What if I did?”
With this my pal holds out just two fingers, the two closest to his right thumb, and says “Listen, you need to crawl back to whatever hole you came from right now, for if you don’t, I will take just these two fingers and demolish your trachea (think ‘adams apple’) such that you will spend the rest of your life talking like Donald Duck – that is if you survive at all”. My pal said this in a calm voice as if he was talking to a four year old.
At this the large mutant swings at him hard with his remaining beer bottle and my pal just raises his hand like Queen Elizabeth giving one of those elbow-elbow/wrist-wrist waves. And the mutant is suddenly on the ground. He bounces up and goes back at my pal with a now broken beer bottle aimed directly at my pals neck. And my pal takes those two fingers and snaps him in the adams apple. The guy gets knocked down and is thrashing around gasping for air.
My pal, knowing that I had some trivial EMS training says “do what you can for him – but don’t get too close. I’ll go call the cops and an ambulance.”
And that he did. me I basically tried to keep a safe distance but eventually rolled the mutant onto his side in the hope he might not drown in his own puke and blood. The cops and the ambulance soon arrived. And as the cops quick recognized him as quite the ne’er do well, I was free to go. I met up with my pals at the gay night club where they were drinking free drinks at the bar. Seems this mutant was well known therein and not at all popular. Soon after we found my car and went home.
~~~
so, do I believe those specific 4 video frags are legit? I dunno. Am I sure a rare few people have that level of skill and understanding – I absolutely do.
Sorry for the long post. Perhaps I should change my moniker to “PgDn” hmmm...
Be well, and avoid mutants on PCP and meth in the dark alleys,
^,,^
(maybe someday I’ll come up with a way to tell this tale in less than 2000 words. maybe someday, maybe in utah...
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Watch the videos again.But use one hand and cover the master. Watch the student. I'm pretty sure every bodily movement was self-induced. Unless it looks like he has wires on and is moving sideways or backward as a result of an unseen force (keep your hand over the master) I'd be more inclined to say he was hypnotized.
Although my SCUBA instructor/patient here on Guam told me that he has seen this no-touch happening, and throwing the opponent across the room, I still don't believe it. He is 5th degree black belt in something and teaches as well.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Stop apologizing for your posts Doggy. They are great gifts for us all.
Naturally the highest levels of any attainment are rare there may be imitators as well. Best to admit we don't know when we don't and call fraud when we do (or stand awestruck)
I was meditating with my eyes closed here in India a few days ago and that same experience (with a different master) repeated itself. I felt the force of his presence coming out of a room and passing me so strongly and vividly, I just knew it could only be one guy...I opened my eyes and it was.
Peace
Karl
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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There was a guy named Oofty Goofty who traveled the foothill communities of California during the gold rush days claiming he was imperious to physical pain.
To back this claim and to earn a few bucks - he would charge passerby's 25 cents to smack him with a stickbat.
Oofty worked this angle for over 6 years until that fateful day when the stranger he propositioned to smack him turned out to be the reknowned pugilist John L. Sullivan.
Sullivan paid his quarter - picked up the bat, swung, and broke at least 2 veterbrae in Oofty's back.
Oofty limped for two more years before dying due to complcations from his injury.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Having practiced the martial arts seriously since 1972 or so,
I do know there are people with some remarkable abilities.
There are people with a high level of understanding of chi,
but also there are a lot of charades that go on. In the
case of the video shown here, the opponent is the dead
give away. He is a very low-level fighter and certainly
not a third degree in any group for which I have
any respect. I honestly believe Tom Muzila's
fourteen year old son could easily take that guy. And this
person the master throws around is clearly the pupil
of the "master" and friend. But one can study the movements,
and there is a combination of some actual manipulation
through chi but also a kind of success that depends
greatly on the high vulnerability of the pupil. These
"techniques" would not work, of course, against a
high level karate master, for example, such as Ono
or Ohshima. I would not say the "master" in the video
is a total phoney, and some of what he says is in keeping
with some of the true principles. He might very well not
be trying to pull off a charade, but to a degree he
does pull off one. And I do not say this because I
am not open-minded. On the contrary. My sensei has
abilities that would rather blow the mind of the
untrained observer and that are not magic or in any way
in defiance of natural law but rather are the result of a
lot of very hard work for many years. Very profound things
become almost simple to one who has done the work and broken
through the mental barriers. This is, by the way, the main
focus of the martial artist, to break through our mental
barriers and become better people: not to learn how to
beat up others...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Also, with regard to the Aikido entry. All the great
masters of the various forms have done such
demonstrations, usually against their wishes, and
they are basically invincible at those higher levels, but
almost never do they act in the role of the attacker.
The great martial artists know that chi works best in
reaction to attack rather than as an attack. Mr. Ono
would be invited to the world championship Tae Kwon Do
tournments, and he simply would stand in a back stance,
and anyone who came toward him with one of their flying
back double side kicks, or whatever, were subject to a
simple down block that would either break their leg or
injure it. He didnt' have to make a single attacking move.
They stopped inviting him to their "world championships."
The great masters are humble. They don't get into fights,
as a general rule. But certainly they would not play the
role of an attacker in a demonstration of another's defensive
abilities. By so doing, they would reveal their lower level,
in fact, not to mention they would play into that other
person's strength.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Okay - serious question for you Martial Arts aficionados if you would so indulge me.
"Could you win a fight with a street gang kid?"
Allow me to elucidate before you answer.
I have known numerous guys who had their butts kicked once or twice in their lives who turned to the martial arts for guidance.
Every one entered a dojo determined to learn how to kick some ahole's butt in a bar fight.
Every one that stuck with the art sooner or later started talking like a born-again with the voodoo of "chi" and "oneness with self" and the whole "the art of the master is to never actually fight" sermon.
Yet...I've always asked the same question - "If you were jumped by some stringy muscled half-breed street rat raised by wolves in the ghetto who fought every day of his life - could you beat him?"
"Or, has your regimented ballet faux sparring with other suburban Rambo's only really taught you how to dance real purty?"
But seriously - when did your art shift from the crude physicality of combat to more of a pursuit of knowledge?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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I did not view the video.
I read the comments.
Martial arts are often based on sufficiently using one's mind to recognize physical attack movements from the initial most subtle indicators, and responding more quickly to advantageously position one's body to defeat the attack motion. But that is still a physical mechanism.
It is said that the true master of martial arts learns to NEVER use physical force. That is the demarcation of a true master.
Some people perceive that to be the type reaction to force, that is the subject of this thread. But it is still based on physical force, with or without contact.
Notice the antiquity of martial arts, and the societies of its origin and popularity. They are still involved with the use of force, predicated on police, militaries and black belts. The street thugs, cops and armies are still pounding, stabbing or shooting their victims who still hold no non-force defense. The test of time reveals a flaw in martial arts. It is force-based. The masters have failed their societies for centuries.
Now therefore, consider that the human mind holds no mechanism for one mind to force another mind. Perhaps read that again, for the knowledge you can derive. The mind's only mechanism for conveying useful knowledge between minds, such as how to resolve contradictions that often cause fights or use of force, is reasoning, the asking and answering of questions of perceived contradictions.
Now consider that you had zero recourse in the use of force, master martial arts or otherwise, zero.
Would you not therefore decide to learn the knowledge of how to detect the pending use of force in sufficient time to utilize expressed reasoning when it is still available to resolve the contradiction? Well?
That simply requires more developed thinking skill than the martial arts chap. You can learn to identify the "threat", days, months or years before it is manifested.
Would you then not learn how to express reasoning in a manner that caused the attacker's MIND to respond as you desire, BY ITS DESIGN?
No human can escape the design of the human mind, by design.
Would you not therefore learn the functional design of the human mind?
What species, predicated on its mind, would be so primitive as to not first and foremost teach its young the functional design of the human mind? Which laughably primitive species still ends up with national leaders who wage Presidential Ego Gratification Wars, such as the Bush wars and Obama wars?
Would you teach your offspring martial arts, or the design of the human mind? Well? Your answer?
It does not matter if the videos were faked or real. The master was a primitive mind still mired in the use of force, having not decided to learn the design of the human mind.
Therefore, if you wish, ask and answer all the questions to learn the functional design of the human mind. You have one handy for the questioning. It is the same design as everyone else.
With the knowledge, you can defeat any mind, because the knowledge comes with your having learned how to defeat yours, against every question any human can ask, by design.
And for those times you chose to enter the close quarters arena of thugs, carry a hand gun of sufficient caliber to preclude the known hazard of the occasional failure of this or that martial arts technique, which are inherently flawed, just as your gun may misfire. Take good care of it.
May you learn the most knowledge of the most concepts, most efficiently.
And have fun doing that.
DougBuchanan.com
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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To answer Ricky D's comments about martial
artists not being able to take the good street
fighter. That is often true, if the martial
artist is from one of the mainstream kind that is a
money-making affair and sends people through,
with a rainbow of different-colored belts to
keep them motivated and paying their hundred
dollars a month. I've had black belts come into
my dojo to learn and practice with us, and they
wouldn't be brown belts in my group. But the
bottom line is the quality and seriousness of
the training. The purpose of the martial arts
is, in some grand ideal, the perfection of the
self through the perfection of an art. So naturally
humility, meekness, kindness, and so forth are
qualities one should develop, and the true martial
artist, while gaining in ability also grows less
inclined to walk around with a chip on his shoulder.
The Walker Texas Ranger mentality isn't the real
world of high level martial arts. Nor would Walker
Texas ranger even remotely measure up to the real
masters. Nevernomind about that. But now and then,
though they rarely get in fights, those high level
martial artists find themselves in a situation.
My friend Sadahura Honda, three time national champion
of Japan, is a little guy, and one day in New York
he was jumped by some hardened street gang types.
He didn't hurt them, just broke a couple arms with a
few easy, glancing blows. They quickly realized they
were utterly out matched and ran away. There was some
kind of story about it later in the newspaper, as it
was witnessed by some people. Those guys made the mistake
of thinking because he was small he would be easy prey.
Believe me the good martial artists are extremely
skillful, but nor do they provoke people or act in
ways that would make people want to try to punch them
out. These are remarkable people. While,
on the other hand, mainstream martial arts, as a general
rule, have a lot of ballerina choreographing and are
a charade. Not all, but many. I will never forget one
day spotting two guys kicking the crap out of some other guy
on the street. I pulled my car over, stopped, and
told them they should stop. I asked them what their
purpose was and what kind of coward they were beating up
on someone half their size, and there being two of them
against only one of him. The one big guy said he was a black
belt in karate. I told him he wouldn't be a white belt
in my group. He told me he had learned most of his skills
through video tapes sent to him by his father. I chuckled
and told him no serious martial art would be beating up
on someone the way they were. For some reason they didn't
try to turn their hostilities toward me. The guy getting
the beating was grateful. But that's an example of so-
called martial artists who aren't. I always laugh when I see some kind of sign in
a dojo window, "earn your black belt in five months, or
even quicker if you bring three friends to the dojo." Ho
hum. The real masters train for years and years, and with
mentors (senseis) from whom you could learn more in one
day than you could in two years from some other teachers.
Nor do the high level people participate in cage fighting or
that sort of stuff. They don't need to be validated by
the world around them. Mr. Ono would destroy in a few
seconds almost any of those talented brawlers. But I
wouldn't expect anyone to believe me. People like
Sadahura Honda and Mr. One know who they are. They are
among the most humble people I've ever known.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Wow Patrick - that's the answer I was looking for.
In my town, every ex-military with a doo-rag has set up some sort of dojo or another. Yet whenever I have looked at their practice- it's just that - practice.
It's watching a carefully choreographed dance with students "attacking" in the same way with the same low level of intensity. The suppossed "master" even corrects the student's attack so that the element of surprise is completely lacking.
While I will never profess to having martial arts skills of any kind - I was a bit of a street fighter BITD and still remember a thing or two about taking down some barroom black belt.
I am intrigued by the mental discipline angle that comes from focused repetition - seems like " artful meditation within movement" to me from afar.
But as a martial art - originally designed to attack and defend in the midst of chaos - I think most modern day psuedo practitioners would get their butts kicked by any ghetto kid.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Every one entered a dojo determined to learn how to kick some ahole's butt in a bar fight.
Every one that stuck with the art sooner or later started talking like a born-again with the voodoo of "chi" and "oneness with self" and the whole "the art of the master is to never actually fight" sermon.
Yet...I've always asked the same question - "If you were jumped by some stringy muscled half-breed street rat raised by wolves in the ghetto who fought every day of his life - could you beat him?"
This 'if' question is just that..."if" What actually happens to us reflects the whole state of our mind and emotions. "the art of the master is to never actually fight" doesn't arise from just calm talk but a whole way of being that doesn't gravitate negative energy in your path.
That said, it depends on the person and what's really within them. I had a client whose martial arts expertise (wrote books about it and such) was breaking bricks, boards and such things. He did get jumped by some hoodlums in South America who put him right out from behind with some choke hold. He said they knew what they were doing and he never had a chance.
Peace
Karl
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qigongclimber
climber
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The relationship between what this guy is "explaining" and the Heart Sutra is pretty much in name only. He uses a few key phrases like "suffering", but the Heart Sutra has nothing to do with rivalry or with most of what this guy is talking about. I attended the Dalai Lama's three day Heart Sutra teaching in Mountain View CA in 2001, and the concept of rivalry never came up (or i missed it). If people are interested in a quick, extremely interesting read on the essence of Buddhism, read 'Essence of the Heart Sutra' by Thupten Jinpa. Jinpa is the DL's amazing translator and this book is a distillation of the three days' teaching. As far as the Qigong goes, I've studied with nationally known (in China) Qigong masters in China, notably Master Wan and Master Duan who are featured in the PBS Documentary 'Qigong - Ancient Chinese Healing for the 21st Century'. I've had plenty of first-hand experience with qi. Qi is definitely real. There's no question about that. However, I never experienced (saw, felt, heard about, etc) what is shown in the videos. If there's no touching, you can pretty much assume it's fake, or you have a very willing or highly suggestive accomplice. This isn't the first such video like this to publicly surface. Search for 'eisenberg qigong' on YouTube and watch that video. To understand what Qigong is really all about, see http://www.qigonginstitute.org. By the way, Chris Sharma and Tom Frost practice Qigong.
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