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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Karl, your tooth didn't hurt because he didn't cut through the enamel into the dentin where you would feel it.
Someone could say then that he was over-treating you and you could have used MI Paste to re-mineralize the enamel and not cut the tooth.
They could say the same thing about your girlfriend's laterals. Why weren't no-prep veneers placed on the teeth instead of irreversibly cutting them and putting crowns on? The veneers wouldn't leave the black line at the edge of her gums...
You see, there are a million views on each treatment plan, every dentist will have a different opinion and nothing really makes any sense without an exam.
I can't comment on that Indian practice - have never seen their work. Site looks good though.
The only thing I can recommend is to use dentists from the US/Canada with good reputations. The vast majority of work I have seen, especially now practicing overseas, is poor.
There isn't really a difference in my opinion of Canadian vs. US dentistry except that the Canadian licensing exams are much harder and relevant/practical.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Tooth, you're missing one important point.
My girlfriend has had a huge gap in the front of her mouth since the age of 11 or so. Folks in our economic class find other things to blow $6000 on than some dentist.
$500 is another story.
I never would have been able to cough up $5000 for lasix either, but $600 was within reach.
I'm pissed that I ran into a US dentist that wanted to do thousands in work I didn't need. Classifying dentists my nationality is hardly justifiable. Lots of US dentists are immigrants. Lots of Indian dentists trained in the west. How do you tell which is best?
Lots of losers on every side of the ocean, but one thing is certain,
If you can't afford the treatment, it hardly matters if it is marginally better.
PEace
Karl
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Sorry that you understood me as classifying dentists as your nationality. a full fifth of my class were dentists re-training in the US from other countries would return after. Caucasian men weren't the majority. What I am saying though is that you have a higher chance of getting quality work done by a dentist trained in an American school than these other places I have seen, and you will get a much better quality product produced in north american labs than say, from a lab around where I live now.
One thing you should remember is that in school the smarter kids in the sciences get picked because they have better grades in the pre-dent classes, and they end up going through dental school. They don't teach business in dental school. They teach you how to do a filling, what ideal preps look like, how to decide what will be the healthiest, last the longest, look the best.
Suddenly the studying nerds are out running multi-million dollar businesses with no background in business. They do what they know. Restore to as close to ideal as they know.
Remember, the A students teach the B students how to work for the C students. In this case, the B students work for themselves, and many of them hate business.
So they don't know to cater their product to the individual who walks in the door. You may have encountered dentists who either wanted to narrow their patient base to a certain demographic, or didn't know what they were doing. They just assume when the patient never returns for the treatment that they didn't want the dentist's version of what was the correct treatment.
Now if all dentists were required to take a business class, or liked business, didn't complain at dental society meetings about the headache of running a business, didn't start working for these terrible 'dental mills' that are popping up everywhere in California that take care of the business and let the dentist do what he likes best, cutting preps... if that were different it would probably affect the public's view of dentistry in a different manner. But it doesn't, and it's not, because of what it takes to become a dentist in our society.
There are always acceptations to the rule, and newsworthy or noteworthy cases will stand out in people's minds because they are just that, different. This tempers the public's opinion more than the 10 normal good dental visits the other people on the Taco Stand had because these guys write about it. But generally the guys with science smarts - not business smarts - get into dental school, and it shows in the general dentist population today.
On another note...
Right now I'm in the process of joining a group that spends the 3rd full week of every month on surrounding Micronesian islands providing free health care for everyone. Some of the islands have only 140 people on them! Can't wait to get started. It's not going to be fancy dental work, health-centered, not necessarily esthetically-centered, but it should be fun. If only supplies weren't so expensive. I pay ~$200 more for non precious all metal crowns as a lab fee than that Indian dentist has them listed for, and I get charged up to $500 for 5mL bottles of bonding agents to glue in fillings.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Here's the thing. There are tons of people in India with HORRIBLE teeth. Lots of poverty there, and probably lots of substandard dentist too, who only get the patient when it's too late and they have to make due with minimal care that the patient can afford. Naturally you see some horror stories.
The difference is this, as a westerner, if you can find the right recommendations, you can afford the super-star, smartest and best dentist in a country like India.
Every country has smart people and stupid or greedy people. Every country has people willing to take reasonable rewards to serve people and even do some charity work, and also folks to do it for the money alone.
Tooth wrote
"Right now I'm in the process of joining a group that spends the 3rd full week of every month on surrounding Micronesian islands providing free health care for everyone. Some of the islands have only 140 people on them! Can't wait to get started. It's not going to be fancy dental work, health-centered, not necessarily esthetically-centered, but it should be fun. If only supplies weren't so expensive. I pay ~$200 more for non precious all metal crowns as a lab fee than that Indian dentist has them listed for, and I get charged up to $500 for 5mL bottles of bonding agents to glue in fillings. "
Way way too much gouging goes on in the medical field. $500 for a 5 ml bottle. Sounds obscene (obviously you could ship 5ml bottles anywhere in the world cheap) Kudos to you for doing free work. Who are the guys charging you $500 for 5ml? Is there any justification for such a thing?
Have friend who worked in Biotech, they charged 10000x as much for some chemical they sold to some other biotech firms, than it costs the public when they buy it in consumer products like Rain-x.
When fees aren't disclosed and you can't shop by price, when they expect insurance to pay for things, then the incentive for fiscal honesty starts to erode.
I'm sick of our bogus system where I know friends who were almost given $10,000 injections before they asked at the last second "I really have to know what this will cost me and if it is necessary"
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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LEb
"I have no doubt that the Indian dentists are highly competent and can do great work. Your girlfriend's teeth look great. But by the time you figure in the cost of the air fare and the hotels, meals, etc., have you really saved anything? "
Yup, her whole trip for 5 weeks + cost under $2000 including souvenirs and medical stuff. In the states, they had been quoting $6000+
In any case, people should just investigate. Lasix, I hear, cost $1200 in Canada for Both eyes, $3000 t0 $5000 here. Lots of climbers like to travel. Why not free vacation and get your stuff handled.
If I had great insurance and money here, I wouldn't bother, there are risks
PEace
Karl
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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LEB,
I see at least 5 patients a day who have had dental work done in the PI, Philippine Islands. I have yet to find any of it that isn't grossly negligent, and should be replaced to protect the patient's health.
If you find a good example let me know. Like Karl said, I'm sure there is a superstar dentist somewhere in the country - haven't seen his work yet.
I'm glad the Indian dentists are apparently doing great work, but just to point out one thing... they advertise that they have education from the UK and US. Particularly the top-down endo education from the US that the woman took. A 12-hour class on a technique that is taught in dental schools in the US for weeks on end, then is required to take 30 hours of continuing education every year to maintain a license... you see, if US dentists advertised all their CE courses like was done on this dentist's website the education qualifications would cover a page or more if you want to compare apples to apples.
That and the fact that they do not have doctorates, just technician's 4-yr college bachelor degrees. You aren't comparing apples to apples.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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excuse me while I go brush and floss.
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WBraun
climber
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Ah ....
Cuisinart blend all your food and swallow.
Who needs teeth when you can have a Cuisinart .....
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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hard to get one of those working on a wall.
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WBraun
climber
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I have battery ...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm sure PTPP is working on the blender thing right now, for his next big wall camping trip.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nef
Check your local medical school/university.
They usually have a dental school also, where dental students
(under supervision), treat those with fewer resources.
It probably varies from school to school, but you'll probably
get good quality care for a whole lot cheaper.
I've a friend who's a dentist who donates time at our local
university on occasion.
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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When in Doubt, Pull it Out!
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Katie MacInnis McCoy
climber
Seattle, WA
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I don't know what kind of work you do - but have you considered doing a barter with a dentist? My husband owns a landscaping company and does a lot of barter work. I don't think he's ever had to pay his dentist - he does landscape work for him in exchange for all his dental - same with his chiropractor. He's on my medical plan at my work but sometimes it's still an easier way to go - to do a barter. Just a thought...
The other one is to check out the dental school in the area - as others have said.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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"When in Doubt, Pull it Out! "
You know, when I practice this it usually goes well, but on some occasions, I've been slapped... Dunno...
edit: Lots of good reading here, guys. Thanks! Oh, `cept you Fatty! Sheesh! Not like I'm ruthless and toothless or anything!
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Had a friend who got great dental work done as part of a Dental board exam for a new graduate here in the US.
It took him 8 hours to get the work done, but that was the only down side.
I believe the work was free.
-e
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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After my mom retired (degree in 1942, retired in 1992 - 50 years of looking in people’s mouths, no thanks, not for me) that was the end of my free dental care.
In 1995 I went to University of Pacific Dental School in San Francisco. The first student I got was a bloody joker, I saw him once and I told the admin that I wanted another, at first they said no but then relented. I got a senior, Charles, whose father was a dentist that my mom knew.
Charles was at the top of his class and the two root canals and two crowns he did were first class, though they did take a while. The student has to go get a professor/lecturer to check their work, and sometimes there is a queue, with several students waiting. So it does take a while.
Dentists in Ireland are a rip-off, many people go to Northern Ireland, where the costs are 30-50% less expensive.
For the past three years I have been going to students at Trinity College dental school. Much the same as UoP in SF, good treatment, under professional watchful eyes, but it takes so long.
I was lucky that I had a third year student, Matt (a surfer), who also saw me in his fourth and fifth years until he graduated. He is good and is now practising in Edinburgh (he wanted to get away from Ireland for some experience). Now I have some young gal, a third year student, and she is not the greatest.
Access Smile, based in Cork, uses Hungarian dentists in Budapest. You go to their clinic in Cork for an examination and then go to Budapest for the treatment. The dentists are apparently very well trained and qualified. Any minor follow up work is done back in Ireland. The costs are much cheaper than Ireland, and Budapest is not all that expensive to stay for the week (more or less depending on the treatment) of the treatment.
Perhaps there is something similar in the States.
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Brock
Trad climber
RENO, NV
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Too many medical issues related to not getting your teeth done. Higher risk for endocarditis...which could lead to a very costly heart valve replacement...if not death...
Let's see:
Abscess
bacteremia
question of earlier heart disease
endocarditis
AND DOES NOT HELP PICK UP CHICKs
It is your health!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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"You might be interested to know that unlike medical insurance, there are not a lot of "good" dental insurance plans. ..... Typically the cover only a portion of whatever you are having done and not an esp big portion, either.
They normally have yearly caps which are met almost immediately if you are having crowns or any other such expensive work done. They also exclude anything remotely cosmetic. Generally, dental insurance plans suck whereas medical insurance tends to cover most of what you need. "
I'm a little confused by what you say, LEB. You totally contradict yourself. You start by saying that there are a lot of good dental plans, in comparison to (shitty) medical plans. Then you mention all the reasons that dental plans suck and go on to follow it up by saying how much better medical plans are then dental plans.
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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What part of not...
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