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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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I just got of the phone with Yvon Chouinard, he said if you don't make your own stuff and climb with it you suck and shouldn't be f*#king up the walls in Yosemite.
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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AK,
I just got off the phone with your mom. She wants you to move back home because she thinks you can't take care of yourself anymore.)
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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I just got off the phone with the doctor who delivered loom, he said they did all that they could but loom pulled through and survived anyway.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Yeh, I see that you were born in a bathroom.
back to the subject at hand, I just got off a conferencecall with Galen Rowell, Dennis Hennek, and Doug Robinson, they all said that if you can't do it with nuts then don't do it. Said it worked for them on Half Dome in 1973.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I believe that SuperTopo has effected the numbers of people doing "SuperTopo routes". When the Tuolumne ST came out there were crowds of people doing Needle Spoon and Zee-Tree, but no one on Dike Route. This was because of the horrifying description of the Dike Route in the initial ST release. Before ST the only people going up Zee-Tree were soloers...
With over 2500 climbs in Yosemite Valley I'd be surprised if much more then 10% of them are climbed. It is such an amazing place for climbing, people coming in from far away with limited time want to do the "quality" routes, this limits the traffic to the "select" few appearing in various guides, ST among those. People come to do the "5 star" routes because they don't have the time to spend risking an adventure.
I agree with Karl that there is plenty of adventure out there, and many quality climbs which don't appear on any select list. I was out at the Little Wing area last saturday with Steve. It opened his eyes. "Wow, this must of been like the old days", well it was that day! rotten rock, loose, fractured, and incomplete information on the topos. A bit of a hike out there. No bolts at the tops of the climbs (at least the ones we did). We had a good adventure all by ourselves with no parking problem and no crowds. He was still wiping lichen out of his eyes on our drive out. There are lots of places like that, and even places yet to have routes put up on them; in the Valley. And you generally don't even have to hike very far to find them.
The popular routes do require some maintenance, Chris and Greg and others have done a real service in this regard through the ASCA. I believe they act in good faith and do not alter routes to "homogenize" the climbing experience. My guess is that if all you are seeing is the "ASCA" stamp on all the bolts you clip you have already chosen to homogenize your own experience by doing only the select climbs. High traffic routes have a higher probability of equipment failure actually being a serious problem. People have died because of equipment failure.
Maintaining the popular routes is not the same as totally reequiping a climb, like God's Creation over on Manure Pile, which now sports a whole lot more bolts then indicated on the Meyers' topo. Limiting yourself to the original clips would be a real pants filler.... the FA had some idea of what they wanted to do. Never done that climb? Gee, it doesn't show up in most lists of "climbs to do" unless you have the old yellow topo guide.
On the other hand, a climb like Just Do Do It, which has a recently reported accident in this forum, has a series of thin slick moves to get to the first bolt and a really bad fall potential with an uneven, rocky landing. Should that be reequiped to reduce the risk of injury? I don't think so.
For me a large part of climbing is connecting with the FA in some way. I like the history and I like the ideas that lead to creating the routes. It is an important part of the experience for me. So I like the climbs to be left as close to the original creation as possible. That isn't always possible, traffic alters the routes, things fall or are pushed off, things fall on the routes and alter them; routes age. Many people couldn't care less about these things, they just want to climb and not have to worry about dying, I can understand that.
There is plenty of room in the Valley for it all.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Yo-
I can't say about chopping or adding bolts to existing routes--that's a dicey call and I doubt one-ethic-will-ever-fit-all. I did an early ascent of the Cringe with Lynn H. when the arch had a bolt and we clipped it. I also did the 1st free of Free Blast and we (Mike G.) removed bolts on the slab bit--meaning you either ran the 5.10 out off a bashie or you couldn't do the Salathea at all. Not our best moment, but it seemed funny at the time.
I do, however, have a strong feeling about many of the old and very bunk anchors we used to belay off. I don't consider haging off several very marginal wires behind an expando flake during the 2nd ascent of Freewheeling to be "stepping up to the plate," as was mentioned earlier on this thread. Same with belaying with one baby angle beat behind a wafer 1,200 feet up the DNB, or doing basically the same on Paradise Lost, Sachar Fredricks, and many others. I hated it then and only did so because we were so broke we couldn't afford to sink bolts at will, but had to "save" them for when we really needed them. That was just plain stupid. I knew it then and even moreso now. Not that you have to set chain anchors everywhere--far from it. Modern gear can allow for solid anchors where in years past you'd surely perish with anything but bolts. But going with mank on belays just to be "bold" seems absurd.
Now long runouts are a different matter. And yet, for the record, many of the previously bold runouts on Middle and other Valley formations have been totally brought down to scale with sticky rubber. On the first ascent of Stoner's Highway, I wore case-hardened, red PAs, and those runouts felt pretty harrowing. Later, I repeated the route in 1st generation Fires and found a totally, and I mean totally different climb. So the fact is, the "bold" of old (at least on Valley face routes) was in large part owing to vastly inferior shoes. And who's interested in going back to EBs? The thought is preposterous.
JL
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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akclimber,
I got Hermann Buhl on the blower right now. He says the next time you climb with anything stronger than your Mom's clothesline, he's sending his "friend" from Nanga Parbat to kick your booty.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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My personal favorite:
if i do this route again in the future and this bolts not here im going to be pissed!
~TY~
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WBraun
climber
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Speaking of wild ones on Middle Cath.
Meyers leading, forget which route on middle, Kevin Worrall belaying….Kevin’s mom is in the meadow watching him climb for the first time, when low and behold the anchors mysteriously blow.
Kevin instinctively grabs the lead line proceeds to slide down the rope to the end, all while poor George is hanging on a flake some so many feet out from his last pro.
No, they didn’t die, but it was close. Kevin’s hands were so fu-cked up after that.
Those were the days ...........????
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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if i do this route again in the future and this bolts not here im going to be pissed!
Hey Ty, I bet if one were to hammer on a bolt that is sticking out, such as the one displayed in your picture, the bolt would sink back into the hole, making the hanger flush to the rock again. This bolt is definitely a candidate for replacement, provided the proper bolt-type is used to replace ‘what was.’ Ed Leeper would be proud of you, and then he’d ask for his hanger back…
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I personally seperate fixed pro for belay and rap anchors from fixed protection for climbing. In no case, though, do I fix pro next to [non-living] protectable features for protection or anchors.
I've placed pins and bolts for anchors; and I've placed pins for protection, but to-date have not placed any bolts for [climbing] protection. The distinction may be slight to some, but permanent fixed pins do use natural features. That said, I've not climbed but a couple of days in the Valley and Werner's explanation of pin theives and freeze/thaw cycles makes perfect sense to me, but doesn't really happen around here; bomber fixed pins tend to stay bomber fixed pins for a long, long time. Given the circumstances there around using pins vs. bolts - bolts replacing pins sounds perfectly logical.
Dingus and others know I'm pretty solidly in the no-bolts-next-to-protectable-features camp; but I have no experience with this type of anchor/descent ethics discussion beyond having seen tops of cliffs ravaged of all [ancient Cedar] trees for 75' back from the edge due to a lack of top anchors. Given that experience I'm all for bolted anchors to spare trees. From my perspective, if permanent anchors were or are going to be established at all than they should be reliable anchors. I would say any existing anchor old or new that isn't up to a baselevel of holding a rap or a fall reliably is fair game for a [well done] retro.
When it comes down to it, I like my subjective risks associated with actually climbing served straight up with the least impact on the rock. Objective risks I have no "as-you-go" or "skill" control over such as a rapping off anchors I prefer done right if they are to be permanent fixtures. But again, I haven't done any walls [yet] and get the impression that given the scope of the climbs and the role anchors play in a multi-day experience there in the Valley that a very real descent/anchor ethics does exist in the context of this discussion - it's certainly new and eye opening for me and I suspect a few other foreigners as well.
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WBraun
climber
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So Minerals back in early 1970 something year, on the Washington Column Prow, big lightning storm and big cloudburst blow in while leading third pitch. Finish the pitch and watch my partner immediately rap off and run away. I clean on rappel and work my way down to the top of the first pitch. Ready now to rappel to the ground when out of nowhere lightning traveled down the wall to the bolt. Whamo, I get knocked on my ass and the bolt pops out of the hole. My hand is mysteriously black, wtf is this I say to myself as I pound that little bugger back in the same hole, just like you told the puke here to do, and then rappel and run away too!
Was that a good idea? What happened to that bolt afterwards? Is it still good after a scenario like that?
Also Bridwell used to at times drill those long ¼ inch split shank rawl bolts just deep enough so that only the expansion shank was in the hole. You’d have those spinners and not flush like you say. No matter how hard you hit that spinner it will not go deeper….eh! Breedlove can easily confirm those (spinners).
That is but one example of what I meant by the fine line between crazy and sane.
And where the hell is Breedlove?
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2005 - 03:19am PT
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The hour grows late, and it is only after a struggle that I decide to post again. A lot was said while I was out shopping with my wife, but I will try to respond to the main points.
1) Ballorama wishes to beat me up. I do not wish to fight you or anybody, Ball, about climbing. What will it prove? that you are perhaps bigger than me? Will it make my ethic wrong or yours right? Violence will solve nothing. If it will make you feel better, though, have at me-you will find yourself strangely unsatisfied at your smallness. Oh, and, isn't the threat of violence you trying to impose your ethic on me?
Enough with you.
2) To the guy with the story of the Indian Creek death:
It is regrettable; it is sad; I am truly sorry to hear of anyone dying while climbing. I am not saying people should go do stupid things; I am saying they should stay on the safe things unless they are prepared to accept the consequences of climbing more dangerous things. I have a family, a wife and young daughter, responsibilities. There were many climbs I did not dare to to before. Now there are even less. Should I demand safety at all times because I must, at any cost to the rock or to history or to the activity of climbing, climb X route? No, If I cannot do a dangerous route, or if an anchor is too questionalble for me (I do not trust any anchor in sandstone: I do not climb on sandstone at all any more), then I go to climbs, and there are plenty, that are perfectly safe. Do people think I am trying to limit them with my ethic? I am limiting myself most of all.
3) Climbing is dangerous. No matter how much experience or how rad you are, it is a dangerous activity. I do not like adventures; I do not like danger; I try to stay on routes that I am confident I can do without terrible danger or adventure. Again, that means many climbs are closed to me until such time as I am solid enough to do them. Which means forever, probably. But I feel it is unethical to ruin the experience of someone who is solid enough to do them by adding gobs of bolts all over them.
4) Which brings me to ethics. There is no right or wrong in climbing; there is no morality in any ethics; God doesn't care about bolts. Climbing is a game we play, and many of us want a different set of rules than others. When I post my views and opinions, it is to try to get people to come to my point of view, so the concensus will remain with me. If the concensus shifts away from me I will still yell and moan and preach from my soapbox. Anybody is welcome to any opinion, and I reserve the right to think of them what I will, and they are in their right to call me whatever they want. The same thing that gives people the right to add bolts gives others the right to chop them. The several camps will never agree; they teeter perpetually over the brink of horrible bolting wars. Each blames the other (you think choppers are jerks? you should see what they think of adders!), and there will never be resolution, only discussion. My tirades on ethics are only my opinions, declaimed in hopes of making folks agree with me.
I think we will all agree that this thread has gotten to long. (What are the ethics of thread length?) Someone please start a new one if they wish to discuss this further-call it Ben is a Jerk if you wish, but my slooooow dial-up connection can hardly load this page any longer.
Until Tomorrow,
Ben Wah
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Just a couple of points:
-the reason we used 1/4" bolts back in the day (60's, 70's, 80's) was because that was the best stuff available at the time. We (well, at least me) wasn't looking for an extra measure of adventure, the 1/4" bolt was the standard and we thought they were good enough. New climbing anchors, like 3/8" bolts, are better and when I put up routes these days, and drill on lead, I use 3/8" bolts. So, I see no problem replacing the "industry standard of the old days" with the new industry standard.
-bolts weaken over time. So, that 1/4" bolt I drilled back in the 70's may not be as good 35 years later. That means that the "safety factor" of that anchor has potentially deteriorated to the point that current ascents are experiencing a climb at a less-safe level than the first ascent party. That's not good in my book.
-yes, climbing is dangerous but there are at least two kinds of danger to me. There is "real" danger such as big rounouts or loose rock. Then there is "artificial" danger such as poorly placed or inadequate anchors. I think we should preserve "real" danger but I think we should fix "artificial" danger. To me, that means replacing existing bad anchors with good anchors.
But, there is even some hair-splitting here. On the first ascent of Sunshine on Drug Dome, Harrington and Oakshott used only a single 1/4" bolt for each belay. Is that OK? Hmmm. Maybe there should be some criteria for bolted belays. If you are going to have bolt-only belays then there should be at least two bolts. Could be a slippery slope.
Bruce
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WBraun
climber
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Both? .... are you sure?
Only one person died and it wasn't the belay bolt!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I thought it was the hanger design in the Anchors Away incident...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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What Bruce said!
most young people these days probably won't believe it, but a quarter inch button head was considered bomber back in the day. A one bolt anchor seemed infinitely more secure then some of the wierd anchor arrangements. John in a previous post indicated that people would belay off really dangerous anchors.
Why?
Because the nature of calculating risk is that if a bad thing doesn't happen the activity is safe. It is difficult to calculate how close to a bad thing you got. Now as more and more climbs were being made, people actually started to have bad things happen to them. And since that is undesirable, a considerable effort went into figuring out how to properly set up anchors. John's books are the first comprehensive description of anchor systems, the result of much research. These books are RECENTLY published. There were no such elaborate descriptions AND, more importantly, no unifying system of anchor placement.
If there had been such a system people would have used it back in the day. As it was, people were developing the system which we now have come to recognize as one insuring the greatest safety. Not that we can apply it in every situation, but that is climbing, the adaptation to the environment.
There are always people who feel that new knowledge seriously degrades the human condition. Why take antibacterial drugs to fight infection? shouldn't we truely experience what generations of humans did when they were not available? is our life today morally corrupt because we don't have to experience those particular hardships? I don't think so...
...whether or not you use modern anchor systems is your call, being aggressively ignorant has consequences greatest for the participant, but there is also the collateral consequences to family and friends and to the larger climbing community. While some of the anchors from the past are now mank, they were not at the time they were placed. No one every anchored or rapped of something they were convinced would kill them any more then they would jump off the route hoping to survive (Tobin excepted). Werner pushed the bolt back in and rapped it... it worked. Willfully using mank today because it was the original equipment left by the FA is stupid, no FA team would demand it.
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WBraun
climber
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Anchors Away ......
Now Tim Harrison had a bad habit of being a little paranoid about climbing protection. He would always try to back up every piece he placed on the lead. The bolt he placed on anchors away was placed so deep that there was just enough thread exposed to get the nut flush with the top of the bolt. Now it is not clear if he forgot to tighten the nut enough or if it came loose on its own. But that bolt remained minus the hanger and nut when that tragic accident occcured. That bolt by the way was not the anchor bolt, but a lead bolt. He was returning to his high point from a pervious attempt. I believe he was jumaring, could be wrong about that but I think that was what he was ascending with to his previous high point.
His illogical thinking was placing the bolts as deep as theoretically possible due to a slight paranoia helped create his accident.
This was Bens beef about the nuts on the bolts not being tightened ……..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Almost nobody, if not nobody, set out to make single bolt anchors.
It was common enough though to either run out of bolts, break your bits, or have weather threaten, and those factors could lead to corner cutting rather than some "bold statement" that some folks seem to assume was behind every crappy anchor. Poverty comes into play now and then too.
Peace
Karl
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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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Ben you seem to think "ethics" covers quite a wide spectrum for example, your drool about climbing with stoppers and hexes and tying in with a swami.
"It can give you a new level of respect for those old timers and for their particular ethic."
You refer to this an "ethic"?? This has nothing to do with ethics just freedom of choice. You also seen to assume that others including ballaroama aren't up to some ethics standards you have created for yourself. Fine, but as far as I can tell you don't know jack about ethics and really thats not what this thread is about , it's about your cheap shot at ASCA, from your first post:
LEAVE US THE OLD MANK; I feel safer with it.
Yeah more carnage from anchor failure is cool.
This guy Roger is in the Valley doing great public service replacing bolts very responsibly, it's really to bad you have a problem with this.
And elcapfool said "It used to take gumption to climb some routes." Yeah whatever.
This notion that people disagreeing with Ben are somehow for placing bolts at every anchor station is absurd.
I've clipped thousands of crappy bolts, and never had one fail.” elcapfool, you got the fool part right. That is some stupid blind faith that one shouldn't force on others.
"You want to be safe? Go play tiddlywinks. But be sure you wear your goggles"
Ben you sound like a little bitch that must have been molested by daddy. Pull your dick out of your ass and it might give your brain some room to think.
"All of you are absolutely stupid for getting that worked up about a few pieces of metal in the rock. What a bunch of fools." akclimber
Ben you read this a few times and think about it. Who the f*ck are you to dictate what others do if its climbing or whatever.
This isn't about ethics Ben no matter how much you spin the thread around, again its about idiots like you that have a problem with anchor replacement. Sure ASCA makes mistakes, last time I checked it still isn't a perfect world. None of us want to see bolts added to existing climbs and don't imply with your drooling posts that anyone that disagree with you encourages that. Again, you will regret chopping bolts on routes you solo and force others to step up to your lame plate, my threats are not empty. Your just a raging hypocrite because I would imagine you have clipped plenty of anchor bolts in the Valley. Get over it Ben and quit trying to play rock god or whatever, STFU and go climbing and leave the bolts alone.
And by the way Bruce on the first ascent of Sunshine there were no single bolt belays.
edit-Ben, I still think your pushing it with the best ascent theory, but since I made an attempt at a truce with Rob I will apologize to you for the threats and slander and just hope you don't follow through with that theory. I didn't think I misunderstood you about your idea of solo then remove gear. All I can say is I think it's kinda regressive and not realistic for the crowds here.
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