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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"As far as rap bolts are concerned, he doesn’t view them as he does protection bolts on lead but if there is a tree to rap from or a horn to sling (Geek Towers…) then that is much better than placing bolts."
And if the bolts keep the tree from being girdled or killed?
Brutus
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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All of you are absolutely stupid for getting that worked up about a few pieces of metal in the rock. What a bunch of fools.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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re."When I mentioned gym climbers and their feelings towards being able to climb in Yosemite, Bridwell said that gym climbers should stay in gyms and if they want to climb in Yosemite, then they have to step up and climb the routes in the manner in which they were put up, without adding bolts or bringing the routes down to their level."
Excuse me Minerals, but what the hell are yout talking about? What exactly is a "gym climber" and how do you know what their "feelings" are? For that matter, how many so called "gym climbers" do you know that are adding or chopping bolts?
You usually make some good points but this nonsense about "gym climbers" is just ridiculous. I know plenty of amazing climbers who have climbed in Yosemite for much longer than you and I see them in a climbing gym all the time. What exactly is this notion of segregating climbers as "gym climbers" or "non-gym climbers" supposed to accomplish?
btw. You clearly have a bief with Nanook. He won't go near a climbing gym. Is he a "gym-climber"? I learned to climb outside on real rock about 15 years ago but this past year or so with a new baby in the family I've definitely spent much more time pulling down on plastic than real rock. I guess that makes me a "gym climber" right? Who the hell cares! When I get the chance I'll climb in Yosemite on whatever route I can scrape my way up and I don't give a sh#t if I don't measure up in Bridwell's eyes. The day I'm climbing to preserve a legacy instead of climbing for myself is the day I'm done with this silly little game.
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Ball Aroma said:
"Piss off Minerals and I hope to see your sorry ass at the crags for some fresh blood on my knuckles,"
"I promise to hunt you down and kick your little elitist ass, not to mention break your fingers so you will never climb again"
"if you think my threats are empty just stay tuned to look at Bens face and when its severely rearranged you will know I had A visit with the bitch,"
"I know who he is"
Most of us know who Minerals is and who Ben is; who the hell are you BallAroma, or are you too ball-less to say. You just going to talk smack and make threats? Maybe you'd like to sneak up on Ben or Bryan from behind this summer?
Arguing passionately is one thing, but when you start making physical threats you're going too far.
Scott Lennox
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Brutus, seems like it would depend on the situation – if it makes sense, yes; if not, no. You’ll have to ask him about his particular views on trees; that’s something that I didn’t ask.
David, I guess I used the term “gym climber” a little too loosely. Yes, you are right, there are many very good and experienced gym climbers, some of whom I know. I actually have a couple or three hundred plastic holds but don’t have a place for a wall right now. I’ve also helped to design and build two free-standing backyard climbing walls. “Gym climber” was just the term that Bridwell and I used to discuss the issue of inexperienced climbers or climbers who are used to the indoor environment and lack outdoor experience. I apologize if I offended you by the misuse of that term – because you climb indoors or in a gym doesn’t mean that you are a gumby or a “gym climber.” My mistake. I used that term incorrectly and stand corrected. Thanks.
I do not have issues with Nanook; I have issues with what he does.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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No worries...guess that was my diatribe.
You didn't offend me. I'm very secure in my mediocre climber status/ability level. However, I meet wide eyed gumby climbers in the gym all the time who are preparing to hit Yosemite, JoshuaTree or RedRocks for the first time. You can't stop them. They're coming whether you like it or not. I think it's better to encourage them to be responsible and respectful than it is to just dimiss them as Ben has done in this thread. That's a recipe for the very problems you're describing.
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mike hartley
climber
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Blindly bowing to the “1st ascent is sacred” rule is nice and clean, shows respect to the FA, and is bonehead simple to understand - but its incredibly simple minded also, at least when it comes to public land. It gives complete power to the FA with absolutely no responsibilities what so ever!. The guy can use junk hardware of the lowest grade, place bolts that avoid all of the natural stances, contrive runouts like placing one bolt on a 150’ face pitch (but it isn’t freesoloing because he trailed a rope), and do an all around crap job and everyone forever more has to live with it. To rigidly hold to the line that every new route is an inviolable work of art is utterly ludicrous. It lacks balance and logic. There has to be some minimal quality standard that the FA has to adhere to if they are to forever “own” a piece of public land – like say for instance rap anchors that will hold more than body weight :-)
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Mike, you are a wise man.
Was anybody else impressed that minerals got Bridwell to stroke him?
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Yah dude,
The way Mike got you to stroke him?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"Was anybody else impressed that minerals got Bridwell to stroke him?"
Not really.
Nor do I put Bridwell up on any pedistal as the Final Authority on Yosemite.
Last time I spoke with him, he was still advocating tossing sh*t bags from the walls rather than using a pipe bomb or burrito bag.
OK gang -- I know this has been kicked around before, but ...
Cookie Monster? Comments?
Brutus
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Amazing how people go on and on about first ascent rights. You do not own the mountain and dont you dare tell me how to climb it. I find that the cavalier attitude of people who get bent that climbing is becoming safer reflects something disconcerting: you are climbing bumbs with nothing to loose. Dont ask people who have families, responsibilities and a life outside of climbing to die on behalf of your looser ego trip. Some people like to brag about how dangerously they climb. Unfortunately many of them are no longer with us. You cowboy hot-doggers may get away with alot of dangerous stuff. Most all but the greatest of climbers with this attitude simply dont know what they are doing. Reckless foolhardy climbers may get alot of props for having big balls but in truth they simply dont realize the true nature of the force: You mess with the dark side and you may get killed.
Too many of our friends have discovered this the hard way and their voices will never be heard on this topic or anything else for that matter. Dont get me wrong, I am totally against bolting trad routes that dont need additional gear. But replacing old bolts is absolutely necessary. Especially in this new era when many inexperienced novices are out leading and trusting those bolts. We may not like that they really dont know what they are doing. But to let them fall to the deck as a lesson in "I told you so" is cold hearted, indifferent and selfish. If you want to scare yourself to death, go FA the thousand or so untried lines in the Tuolumne river canyon. Meanwhile, our kids' safety comes first.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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"Yah dude,
The way Mike got you to stroke him?"
LOL! Not really the same thing. I don't know Mike, nor have I ever conversed with him, he just made a very intelligent post.
BTW, I just got off the phone with Royal Robbins and he said all these people bickering about FA rights and bolting have their head up their asses, including Bridwell. He said that he has seen the light about his militant actions in the past and realizes he was wrong. He thinks that things should not be made so safe that they are sterile routes but that ridiculously unsafe sh#t should be fixed.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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It comes down to anchors. IMO , no route should have an anchor on any pitch that isn't capable of holding a fall. You can make the gnarliest run outs or sketch face climbs, but the anchor shouldn't fail when you do take that 50 footer. That is the minimum standard. If you want to do a route on shitty anchors to theoretically make a "time bomb" line for people to risk it all I say you've waived your sacred FA privlidges in this particular regard due to your poor judgment or otherwise lack of equipment. Others should be allowed to upgrade anchors to the minimum standard that any rap anchor will hold more than body weight and any needed fixed anchors on the route will hold a lead fall.
Otherwise you might as well free solo or simul climb, it's safer than belaying off sh#t anchors. That is an unacceptable objective hazard, the only thing lamer would be to place bunk rivets or bolts intentionally. If you are going to drill or fix gear, better damn well do it right or don't do it at all. That means 2 bolts = an anchor on a blank face. If you need to take such extreme risks in climbing then get into hardcore alpinism or start climbing routes on choss piles like the stuff above camp 4.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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mr. minerals-
interesting comments (though not unexpected) from the bird. my only complaint is the same on i had for ben earlier, no one in this conversation was ever discussing adding protection bolts to any climb, so i fail to see any argument there. take even mr. greg barnes, whose efforts you guys have kinda singled out, didn't he chop the bolts where good book takes a #4 cam? (maybe i have that wrong?)
anyway, there is plenty of smoke to be fanned if you start talking about adding mid-pitch protection bolts, and then you can start calling out the "gym climbers" and blame "them" for the crowding of the craggs and the degredation of ethics, and even the high price of gass if you like, but now the water is all muddied and no one has decided anything or swayed anyone.
to that end, i want to highlight one line from your post:
As far as rap bolts are concerned, he [bridwell] doesn’t view them as he does protection bolts on lead but if there is a tree to rap from or a horn to sling (Geek Towers…) then that is much better than placing bolts.
it seems as if he is basically in agreement w/ werner:
Well, sometimes the first ascent does not bring all the goodies for making good permanent anchors because it’s too much stuff to bring. Most of the FA I’ve done were like that. I figured the later ascents would fix all the mank.
it seems to me that all of that specifically conflicts w/ what ben wrote:
What is wrong with being safe on the pitch and having a sketchy rap? Pointless? perhaps, but climbing itself is pointless. You want to be safe? Go play tiddlywinks. But be sure you wear your goggles
that attitude is the only problem i have w/ anything, and i don't think every route needs a rap route, nor a way to bail from anywhere on the climb w/out leaving gear behind. however, in those instances where the way back down is just that, there needs to be a reliable way to accomplish that, and in realtive safety, even when the climbing itself is dangerous (i am picturing danO being lowered off of cave rock after that solo in the masters of stone video).
there is nothing bold or courageous or "old school" about rapping off of junk that may or may not hold you, it's just plain stupid. you may just as well smoke cigarettes...
=)
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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This is like someone stuck an M80 in the can of worms…
Here’s another worm:
When deciding whether or not to rebolt (or retro-bolt) a route, we all seem to agree that the first ascent party’s intentions should be considered. Some say basic safety should be a concern as well. Others throw convenience into the mix. What about the impact we’re having on the place itself?
If an anchor tree is being trashed, are bolts better? If a rap route means people won’t erode a hillside walking down the descent, is that better? How about moving bolts so that more than one route can share a mutual rap anchor? Are bolted rap anchors with chains “lower impact” than horns and trees slung with colorful webbing?
Cheers,
-Link
PS: Someone mentioned that the NPS should remove bolts placed on rescues. Just for the record, I agree, and I plan to remove a few such bolts this summer (as the person who placed them). Obviously there are some locations where such bolts should be left in place to facilitate future rescues, but beyond that the NPS aught to practice its preaching. I’m on it.
PPS: I can’t believe no one has mentioned the bolts on the last pitch of Arches (and I’m not talking about the rap anchor). It’s been at least six months since the last time we debated those…
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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The fact is the crags are getting more and more crowded. I don't like it, but I accept it. We can go to more and more remote areas to escape, but that isn't always practical. Besides, the crowds will soon be following us there. There are many great routes that get very crowded because they are easy, well-known, easy to approach, classic lines or a combination of those things. Many of them I write off as unclimbable because they are almost always too crowded. So I go do other quality routes, but eventually the same will happen to them.
Parallelling this trend is the trend to dumb everything down and protect everyone from themselves. The reasoning goes like this, "How can you tell someone to not climb something if they're not willing to take the risk, when many of these poor bastards don't even know what the risks are." And the conclusion is, "well, I guess we'd better make it as safe and idiot proof as we can."
If everything operated the way Minerals and Ben are proposing then of course it would effect the climbing experience for all of us. But likewise what is happening through the current Disneyfication of climbing has just as profound an effect on everyone's climbing experience.
Some think that Ben, Bryan and others are all about wanting to tell or force others to climb their way; unsafely or not at all, thereby infringing on everyone elses ability to climb what they want, when they want, how they want, and how safely they want. But when people go beyond just replacing old FA bolts, they are making a decision to be a part of the force that is changing the very nature of what climbing means. (Chainsaw, check your Joseph Campbell, going over to the dark side is all about letting yourself be incorporated by the system.) It starts out well-meaning, but it is a subtle, all-consuming and IMO very negative change.
This is a slippery slope, and slippery slopes need someone in charge or a set of rules or laws that most abide by. There was more of a consensus in the past which was enough. But as the numbers of climbers grows, and especially those many (most of whom learned in the gyms) for whom climbing ethics and style are just whispered hints of a rumor, consensus continues to atomize.
The message is going out that climbing is getting safer; everyone just needs to pitch in and make it even safer; soon it will be safe enough for anyone to climb anything they want. Eventually the park service may regulate it in Yos. Maybe routes in other areas will eventually have to pass safety inspections like other amusement parks.
I'll see you in the valley this summer, but I'll be spending more of my time on the trails and peaks. Yes, I dislike the increasing numbers, but much, much more than that I feel frustrated by the apologists and those who abet the accomodation of the hordes. The salesmen and the saviours are changing the very essence of climbing. One look at a SuperTopo tells me where Climbing is headed: precisely measured quantities. That was never what climbing or adventure meant to me; that seems more like the world of bowling, cruise ships, and gated communities.
Scott Lennox
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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My experience is that folks rise to the level of adventure that they are willing to tackle, and it has very little to do with anchors. When I look back at my adventures, they had very little to do with anchors and everything to do with everything else.
Since many folks hold to an ethic that takes the First Ascent party into consideration, I developed a proposal to collect information about First Ascender's ascents and attitudes about their creations. You can review this proposal, that's on the back burner, here
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=371902#371902
Some folks do their first ascents as public service, installing all the needed anchors in the process, looking to the future.
Some folks go have their adventure the fastest, funnest, scariest way possible. To go onsite something in a day, you can't take the time to place bolts where you can sling a tree instead. Many don't care if others later rig their handiwork for future crowds, others might.
After all, the first ascent party didn't have to worry about two parties rapping back through on the way down.
It's also true that it's easy, way easy, to find adventurous routes, free from crowds in Yosemite. Trying to nitpick the anchors on the trade routes is too Taliban for me.
Re: Bolts for pins. Pins place way faster than bolts and if I were doing an FA in a day, I'd slam in pins or use cams if I could. They are a poor long term solution in super popular areas, and make little difference to anyone. The first pitch of Central Pillar used to be anchored with pins. I never stressed about em when they were there, and didn't miss em when the bolts arrived. The real experience of climbing is so much more. When I want it to be more adventurous, I place less pro.
Ok, I have had a few anchor and bolt adventures:
Did the second ascent of Galactic Hitchhiker. Didn't bring a hammers. Between the second and third ascent of that route, I cleaned every single fixed angle (maybe 5-6) with my fingers. Sure glad I didn't rap on em, cause some were at anchors.
Years ago, I took a 35 footer, upside down and backwards off Freewheelin on Middle. I knocked out a front tooth, so we bailed. Was held by a rusty 1/4 bolt. I fell on some ball bearings on a runout after some 5.10 moves high on the route.
Years later, I went back for revenge and to tick that pitch and finish the route. I got to the run-out where I fell last time, but I couldn't find the bolt that held me. Finally I found a rusty stump! It had broken. I bailed again. Frankly, there was plenty of adventure without bolts that could have killed me (but were probably fine years ago when the FA guys did it)
Did I have less adventure than the FA guys? I bet I had more, since I suck so much worse at climbing!
Anyway, believe me when I say, folks are still having plenty of adventure climbing stuff like the Royal Arches. Many are afraid of the raps, others afraid of the gully. Let folks choose how much adventure they want to bite off. They will anyway. Climbing is more popular, it saves wear and tear on the gully. I've downclimbed Royal Arches in well under an hour. Is that the new standard?
It's too late to use the abilities of the elite in the sport to set the standard, and the elites mostly don't even want that. (not that I'm even close, it's easy to up the ante when you're climbing way below your max)
Peace
karl
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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I just got off the phone with Warren harding, he says you all suck and the more bolts the better.
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WC
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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This dialog is a good and necessary one.
A few points that I think most of us can agree on:
1. We don't like erosion caused by poor descent trails.
2. We don't like multi-colored webbing decorations around trees and bushes that can easily be seen from the ground.
3. We don't like damage to said trees and bushes that can result from being rappelled off of.
4. We don't like bolts for convience sake.
5. We don't like bolts in places where clean gear can be used instead.
6. Most of us don't want to die while climbing. In other words, we would like to live to climb another day and time. (Because it is fun.)
So, if we (mostly) agree on so much, then where is the problem?
Well, it seems as though everyone's judgement on what is appropriate is different. There in lies the problem.
Peter Mayfield expressed his dissapointment in the multiple bolt anchors found on El Cap like this. He said that building a safe, intricate, belay anchor out of the gear you had on your harness was part of the fun and adventure of climbing El Cap. Now, that component is mostly gone.
I have never met Coiler or Minerals, however I believe that this is their point. (and that they are trying to keep routes from becoming junkyards) Part of climbing El Cap is creating a safe belay station that you can haul off of, sleep on, or where you can have a little private time with the poop tube. I believe that they are trying to prevent is a disney land type effect. (and I applaud them for this, of course they would probably rather that I just sent them beer and stopped typing now...)
I have never met Chris or Greg, but I believe that their initial intention behind supertopo was to provide up to date information on big wall routes in the valley. People (not everyone...) were still taking nailing equipment on routes that had gone clean and using said nailing equipment where they thought necessary. Chris (and his crew) did what I believe was a nice service for the climbing community by providing up to date information on specific rack for different routes. His topos also gave an amazing amount of pitch specific beta that made climbing these routes more efficient for the average joe, like me. Was it too much? Did they provide too much information? I am certainly not in a position to make that sort of accusation because I successfully used their information to attain certain climbing goals. Did El Cap suddenly get mobbed because of these topos? I don't have any factual data on this one, but I doubt that it made any measurable affect on climbing traffic. If anything, I think that their topos spread out the El Cap and valley climbing traffic, which is good.
It used to be that if you wanted beta on an El Cap route all you needed to do was cruise around camp 4 at night, or sit at the deli pretending to read and listen to the locals hype this route or that. (or watch them perform head jams on the girders that hold up the roof, now that was entertainment worth paying for...)
For the record, I have clipped every bolt I have ever climbed past. I have rapped from "convience stations" and from necessary ones. I have enjoyed the creative process involved in making a belay station out of what I happen to have left on my harness. I have pulled bad bolts and replaced them with new.
If you read all of this, you definitly deserve a prize.
Keep up the debate, it can only lead to a better standard.
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WBraun
climber
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I just got off the phone with Warren harding, he says you all suck and the more bolts the better.
That’s right!!!
Now who’s that mofu-cker who pulled those bolts on the first pitch of the Gripper? Now that poor tree is dying. WTF, gad dang it, fu-cking screwball modern rock nuts!
Hypocrites that’s what all this sh-it is all about! Nothing but a bunch of Fu-cking Hypocrites! Save a fu-cking tree here and fu-ck up another one over there.
Save the fu-cking rock and fu-ck up everthing else!
Now who are you Ballaroama? The master magician threw down the hat and out popped Ballaroama.
He must be from the real old old school like it or not. It was not uncommon to see and hear that kind of talk. Justice was served at times on a plate of knuckle sandwich, yesiree.
Now we’ve evolved into a much kinder gentler types? The lawyers most likely had their hands in it. On the corner of Compton and Slauson you stare the wrong guy cross eyed you may find a bullet through your mind.
Now without Bridwell ever on the scene we’d never would of witnessed that wild side, the side where the fine line between crazy and sane were masterfully crafted.
Just kidding? Great thread, keep the dialog open ……….
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