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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 30, 2005 - 12:44pm PT
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I was messing around on La Cosita the other day, and what should I find when I reach the belay but five or six 1/4" holes (none filled in with epoxy), and the spinning SMC hanger on the last remaining bolt was smashed flat with a hammer.
So I look around a bit, and what do I find around a corner and out of sight but an huge ASCA anchor, nowhere near where the original one was.
I have heard volumes of spray from Mac and Barnes about how ASCA only replaces without adding, but it seems to me that to halfheartedly hack up an existing anchor and then place bolts elsewhere is NOT replacing, it is hacking and adding. It is now impossible (or at least very, very dangerous) to rap off the original anchor for La Cosita, and the whole area where it was is an ugly mess.
I am willing to concede that ASCA might have simply replaced some mank bolts that someone else added around the corner and out of sight, but if these are not the original belay bolts, THIS IS UNNACCEPTABLE. Chris, you gotta tell your little sub-men to find out which belays are the originals and not go replacing added bolts, or they are just as bad as the nincompoops that add them. This is the second or third time I have seen an anchor "moved to a better spot" at the discretion of the mover, and I find it egregious. If you cannot do the route and get down as the FA party did, GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.
Also, and I have seen this more than once, the nut on one of the bolts is not snugged down all the way tight. Should bolts really be placed by people who can't figure out a wrench? How safe is that? And some of the added bolts I've removed were in such baggily-drilled holes that they came out with frighteningly little effort. It has gotten to the point that I give every ASCA bolt a hefty tug to check for spinning and looseness before I commit to weighting it. Chris, if your little fluff boys cannot learn to drill a straight hole, LEAVE US THE OLD MANK; I feel safer with it.
Ben Wah
Anyone else think the ASCA gets out of line now and again?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 30, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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You didn’t mention the Evil Sloanabolter!
Stay tuned for the release of my sermon in the next week or two…
-Bryan
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 12:56pm PT
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Evil Sloanabolter!
Who's that?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 30, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
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.. tee hee .. the ASCA rocks .. i gave them $50 to continue their rampage ..
after all, i did use every fatty bolt they placed on the trip
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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Could you be more specific? The "standard" anchor for the 5.7 and 5.9 (on a good ledge on the top of the pillar), or the weirdo one back in the chimney above the flake/flare (on the main face of El Cap not on the pillar)? I replaced the "standard" 2-bolt La Cosita anchor on 7/16/99. Supposedly, Tom Rohrer (aka Mr. Rap-route) then proceeded to replace the same anchor a few years ago, but I'm not sure what he did or why, or even if it was the same anchor or the one above the flake/chimney. If he did work there he may have reused the ASCA hangers.
I used two 3/8 x 2.25" ss 5-piece bolts there, so if there was a nut on the bolt, then it must have been Rohrer's bolt (or someone else's).
As far as patching the holes, we do try to patch them all, but sometimes you drop the patch epoxy, or it has dried out and you can't mix it, etc. Minerals has a ton of the good hand-mix epoxy, if you run into him get a tube, use a knife to cut off a 1" section, also cut off a section of the plastic tube it came in, tape it up (the plastic keeps it from getting squished and thereby drying out), and dump it in your chalkbag - if you run into unpatched holes it's easy to clean them up.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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May 30, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
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If you ask me, you should quit bitching and go do the replacement work yourself. You should e-mail ASCA and ask for specifics privately instead of making a big stink on a public forum before even talking to the supposed perpetrators. If I were Chris, I would disband then whole thing for a couple of years and then everybody would be crying for them to start their work again.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
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elcapfool said: I am just glad I got to experience the thrill of climbing El Cap before all the steel courage was installed.
Although I like those nice big [“bomber bolts?”], I must have to agree with the above statement also.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
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I will be more specific for you, Greg.
What you call the "weirdo" one on the main wall, not on the pillar, is I believe the location of the original anchor, since the crack that tops out there was the first of the La Cositas to be climbed. The one you call the standard anchor, at the top of the variation, is probably a later one; when those were put up no one would have bothered to drill an anchor for a rappel so close to the original anchor. So I think you replaced the wrong one. Just because bolts are old does not mean they are original.
The bolt with the loose nut is a two-piece Fixe affair (stamped ASCA) with a little anti-chop ring welded onto the end. Why on earth would Rohrer (who is a bit of a loose nut himself) pull one of your five-pieces to replace it with a two-piece?
For the other guy who griped: I have replaced many bolts at my own expense. I'm all for replacing old mank, but it must be done properly and responsibly. I have emailed Mac personally about things like this, but his replies are banal and generally vague, like when I asked him why ASCA replaced the bolts added to Catchy. So I try to raise awareness of these issues in an open discussion forum. Maybe the ASCA should be disbanded for a while; it is only serving to make our poor overcrowded sport more popular, which it definitely does not need.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 08:14pm PT
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Ben I did catchy just the other day and it's the same as the past few years.
What's the problem there?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 08:31pm PT
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Fair enough, that "standard anchor" could well have been non-original. If I remember correctly, when I replaced the "standard" anchor there was only a single bolt with no rap gear at the one you think is the original.
A welded anti-chop ring? Beats me, never done that.
As for Catchy, I chopped an old two-1/4" bolt anchor at that ledge 30' up, and replaced just the hangers on the first pitch anchor (i.e. unscrewed the 5-pieces and put rap ring hangers on). So the "ASCA bolting" on that one was chopping two 1/4" bolts and switching hangers to get rid of webbing that you could see from the road.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2005 - 08:47pm PT
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Werner, and Greg,
I can't be sure (in fact, you should know about this for sure, Werner), but I'm not convinced the nice anchor on the ledge at the top of Catchy is original. If you go just up and left four feet there is a fixed pin and a slung rock constriction which I believe to be the original anchor that Bridwell used on the FA. It would be a matter of asking Bridwell and seeing if he remembers drilling at the top on the FA or whether he set up that other anchor. I do not doubt that you replaced those bolts, Greg, in good faith, but I question whether they belong there at all (that is, whether they were original or added later for toproping convenience). If they were added (no matter when), don't you think they need to go?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 08:58pm PT
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Whatever, stay or go, doesn't much matter to me. I don't consider swapping hangers "replacing bolts" since I didn't do any drilling.
But it's kind of strange to really worry about it - probably half the bolted anchors at the Cookie (if not more) were originally piton anchors (or maybe no anchors at all since the FA went to the top).
Seems to me that the issue at places like the Cookie was decided years ago when the first rap anchors were installed, whether they were bolts or pins. Werner surely has a better longer-term view.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 09:12pm PT
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The original anchors on top of Catchy was put in by Jim Madsen (sp?) back in the day before catchy was freed. By the way it wasn't Bridwell, but Jim Pettigrew lead the first ascent of Catchy.
Common Ben, there's no problem at Catchy.
Ray Olsen aka Frog (which stands for >> From Ray Olsens Garage) replaced most of the anchors with those new bolts you see at the cookie nowadays. He used a Bosh power drill before the big power drill ban was enacted.
And yea, a lot of the anchors at the cookie were really crappy slings and sh-it, much better now!
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2005 - 09:46pm PT
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Very well, Werner: I bow to your greater knowledge and experience, while adding that if crappy pins and slings were good enough for the FA, they should be good enough for all subsequent parties. Perhaps the Cookie (and Central Pillar of Frenzy) are lost causes, but I would hate to see this prescedent expand to every route in the park. Just think, every belay on every climb bolted! There are those who would have things that way, and it is a chilling prospect indeed.
And Greg,
It might seem like no big deal to simply change out the hangers on added bolts, but remember that if you so much as clip an added bolt, you are endorsing it and no better than the ignoramus who drilled it. Better to just leave the added stuff alone if you're not going to chop it.
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Lg
Trad climber
NorCaL
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May 30, 2005 - 09:56pm PT
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Should be retitled, "More ASCA Agression".
"It is now impossible (or at least very, very dangerous) to rap off the . . ."
If you read just about any disclaimer from any guide book or climbing website you'd already know this. Don't blame shift.
"Shows what you know. Some of us resent the homogenization of our sport. It used to take gumption to climb some routes."
Uh huh, here you are in 2005 saying this, well it's a little too late for homogenization and don't blame the ASCA. In case you didn't notice, for decades and decades there has been improvements of how we climb and what we use to climb with. If you can't adjust with these improvements, adapt and overcome, then maybe it's time to get out?
"I've clipped thousands of crappy bolts, and never had one fail.
When it first started, I thought the massive replacement movement was a good idea, but after some personal involvement, My perspective shifted, and I realized it was just dumbing down the whole experience.
I am just glad I got to experience the thrill of climbing El Cap before all the steel courage was installed."
Yes, right, and that's you. And I've heard countless stories of failed bolts, some under body weight only and some pulled out with fingers. Many of the bolts I've replaced come out so easy, it's pitiful. So I guess nothing should be done until after a coroners report?
And I suppose every time you plug in a nice, slick, aluminum camming unit, it totally just ruins it for you too?
"The truth is I just don't find it that much of a thrill feeling totally safe.
And "doing it faster" is just competition, not true adventure."
Time to change your perspective again, or take off the blinders. You know what I wish? That they'd close El Cap for a couple of years and just let the mountain 'be' for a little while without all of us yahoos raping and pillaging for our own little "true adventure". Maybe then, people will realize there's other mountains to climb and we don't always have to climb all over each other. Yea right.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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May 30, 2005 - 10:05pm PT
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Well said Lg. I just get amused when people get all worked up over these issues. I was on a climb once and saw a couple of bolts that seemed too close and hadn't been on the route when I did it years earlier. I just didn't clip them, ran it out about 50'. Now if I had an ego and a preconceived notion as to how the rock should be climbed, blah, blah, blah, I would have stoppd and chopped the bolts. But, I don't give a sh#t. I just pass up the unneeded stuff.
Lg had a good point, what is the difference between placing a nice new space-age-tech cam and clipping a bolt? Climb in work boots or tennies, not 160 dollar shoes that stick to the rock. Even Mr. Ben Wah has limits to how much risk he wants to take, it just seems he is not happy with other folks having different levels of risk for themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
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Well, sometimes the first ascent does not bring all the goodies for making good permanent anchors because it’s too much stuff to bring. Most of the FA I’ve done were like that. I figured the later ascents would fix all the mank. Doesn’t mean the first ascent anchors are the best nor does it mean that they shouldn’t be moved. A bunch of mank in some corner way back may not be the best place. But to get the hell out of there somebody threw their sh-it leave behind gear there, just like I’ve done so many times. Now would you want to rappel off of werners chockstone that he jammed into the crack with a sling on it, or a nice couple of bolts?
Me I’d take the bolts any day over that psycho Werner mank.
Just some thoughts …………..
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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May 30, 2005 - 10:18pm PT
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Ben do you know Greg??
Ever actually discussed his views on Bolt replacement with him?
I'm guessing no. And by the "I thinks" in alot of your post's you seem to be making inflamatory statement's about a guy and an Orgganisation that you know little about.
Having discussed this stuff with Greg, in person, and at length and having been there when he replaced bolts; I can tell you that you will not find anyone who cares more about what gets replaced and what doesn't. He does his research....and in the few case's where he was wrong...he fixed his mistake. He know's more about what a bolt(and all the different variety's!!) will hold than anyone...
Greg is a class act. The ASCA has the best of intention's. Yes sometimes individual's who act (supposedly) on the behalf of the ASCA do things that are questionable.
Alot of what has been done is swirling in the gray area...there had never been a major rebolting effort before the ASCA came along(before someone tells me about the effort on X route at X crag- Let me just say you know what I mean!)...so they are learning as they go. And I can tell you Greg keeps track. He's figureing out what the climbing community as a whole finds acceptable and what they don't...and he's applying it!!
Not everyone will be happy with everything...we've got to find the middle ground.
Personally I'm not for retro bolting. But leaving a bad bolted anchor in place just to add spice to the route is not legit either. Now was that anchor original or not? Should we replace it or chop it?? With that we go straight back to that big Gray area....
I will tell you this...Greg Barnes cares more(and knows more) about this rebolting stuff than any of us....and he looks at all side's.
josh
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2005 - 10:56pm PT
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"I've clipped thousands of crappy bolts, and never had one fail.”
Well I’ve clipped a lot of crappy bolts myself and some have failed. During one of my numerous ascents of Freestone (left side of Geek Towers) I for some strange reason didn’t trust Bridwell’s original rap bolt anymore on the second rappel. I took a long sling and rapped it around a chockstone behind it.
Low and behold the bolt blew when my partner was ¾ of the way down that rappel. Now if I had not backed it up what kind of scenario would we have had?
ASCA has replaced the bad anchors.
Just some more thoughts ..........
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Lg
Trad climber
NorCaL
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May 30, 2005 - 11:56pm PT
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"I know Greg, and he is not the problem. The records he keeps stand as a testement to his dedication and integrity.
I have seen all sorts of bolt atrocities, and I'm not blaming ASCA for all of them. Just because the hanger is stamped ASCA, doesn't mean THEY put it in."
Kind of you to make that 'distinction'.
"Lg- you don't seem to make the distinction between technology that allows for clean climbing, and bolting for convienence."
I understand we can make many distinctions and have many discrepancies among those distinctions . . however, my reference to technologies was to present an overall picture of a general timeline.
"Cam hooking through sections that used to be nailed is RAD,"
RIGHT! I see you've adapted quite well to 'this' part of evolution in the history of climbing. Once it was like this, now it's like this- get my point?
Don't worry, some day those shiny bolts and hangars will wither too and become 'just right' and raise just enough doubt in whoever clips it and voila, there will be fear amoung men again.
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