Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Dwain
Trad climber
Apple Valley, California
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:39pm PT
|
There is some danger in anything we do.
My fear is, if I stop climbing, I would be in danger of
dieing of boredom.
Dwain
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:49pm PT
|
MH2
In the 10 years that I have been monitoring climbing accidents, I have never seen so many alpine related fatalities like what I seen in 2008.In Himalayas, the K2 and the Ama Dablan incident took the lives of so many climbers and both were avalanche related.
|
|
Hardly Visible
climber
Port Angeles
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
|
“Getting old, crusty, slow with the reflexes and cratering, off of mundane stuff.”
Jeez Roy are ya talking about anyone we know?
I might add getting complacent about your doings, lulled by the fact that you’ve been climbing brilliantly for sometime now and haven’t had a fall or misstep in ages. Don’t let yourself forget that climbing is serious stuff and remember to give it the focus and attention it deserves.
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
|
"the end of the rope marking as the half marking on the anchor and came up short on side of the rope and fell to their death."
Whoa... on my rope the marks are different anyway, but it's quite a state of mental fatigue to not see the end fifteen to twenty feet away (I'm guessing that's what happened?).
|
|
berghold
Trad climber
Calistoga
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
|
While leading through roof moves on Direct South Face of Moosedog Tower (popular Indian Cove 5.9 route) I used a long sling to reduce rope drag. When I fell at the lip expecting a soft catch, I had unknowingly placed my foot through the sling (sloppy footwork beneath the roof ,where I couldn't see my feet.) Result: The piece held, my foot was caught, I swung straight over backwards (high velocity pendulum) upside down, slamming the back of my head on the slab 8 feet below. The force was enough to crack the helmet shell and I was knocked unconsious for about 30 seconds. I woke up hanging upside down wondering WTF !?!? My foot was still caught in the sling! After extricating myself and recovering I was luckily able to resume climbing. Low commitment route, lack of focus, and complacency that the gear would hold resulted in a harsh lesson in physics. Ouch. That said, my worst fall ever could have been a lot worse. . .
|
|
Impaler
Trad climber
Munich
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
|
Yeah, I totally agree that the inawareness and letting your guard down cauases most accidents, deadly or not. One day in june this year I soloed a couple of routes at the Leap before lunch having never before soloed that much. Then I decided that I was done and ran back to the car. On the flat part of the trail 1 minute away from the car I rolled my ankle so hard that it is still recoveringin November. The sounds that it made when I rolled it were horrendous. I knew instantly as it happend that I just lost my concentration and was more upset about that than about the ankle itself. Next time it could be my life...
Vlad
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
|
Karl- do you have any educational background in math or physics?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2008 - 02:23pm PT
|
I had to take some very basic math and physics at UC davis as a freshman/sophomore.
Safe to say it has receded to the intuitive level by now.
Theoretically, I'm not competent to comment on highly geeky issues of physics and economics on Supertopo.
Actually, I find that I'm not as wrong as I should be.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
|
exactly Vlad. I can solo all day but trip on the approach or descent trail.
The #1 safety skill in climbing and in life we can develop is constant mindfulness. Doesn't mean you have to think all the time, but to have the attention span to be present in the moment is the quality that keeps your ass safe
Peace
Karl
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
|
Climbing is always dangerous whether it is a step ladder or the big stone. That awareness doesn't have to lead to fear or mind puckering, but rather to purposeful and balanced presence of mind in assessing risks as they continually present themselves. Traditional climbing is all about meeting those challenges with skill and technique to yield a satisfying result.
Fortunately, it usually takes several errors in judgement to get you killed but recognizing the nuances of your exposure is crucial to survival. Wishful thinking and immortal judgement really don't accomplish much.
The Litany Against Fear ala Frank Herbert is also useful in a pinch when judgement seems to be eroding.
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
Think clearly, act purposefully.....
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
|
My first thought when I see mention of simul-rappelling is: See you in the obituaries!
What is up with that? Even as a little kid I realized rapping was by far the most dangerous part of climbing. Why do something that can't but help up the danger factor?
|
|
Chris2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
|
Only should be used when in a rush due to bad weather, daylight disappearing, injury...etc.
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
|
"What is up with that? Even as a little kid I realized rapping was by far the most dangerous part of climbing. Why do something that can't but help up the danger factor? "
If it saves you time in inclement weather, it might save your life. Therefore, it may be wise to practice in more controlled situations.
|
|
Chris2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
|
We are only born with two fears, heights and loud noises. The rest is learned.
|
|
jmap
climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
|
Well, I'll answer from the perspective of adventure programming.
In adventure programming, we speak of two types of danger; actual and perceived.
Generally, we want to keep the perceived level high, and the actual risk low.
It's interesting in your examples of fear that each comparison has one example that falls under perceived, and one example that falls under actual. In each case, the perceived component elicits a stronger reaction that the actual.
But back to adventure programming. When we plan trips, we look to set an appropriate level of perceived danger--a level that will challenge each person without shutting them down. To accomplish this, We use the concept of green zone, yellow zone, and red zone. Green zone is comfortable and functioning, yellow zone is uncomfortable but still functioning, and red zone is uncomfortable and not functioning. The yellow zone is the growth zone and it's always our goal.
We mitigate actual risk by having appropriate activities, led by instructors with appropriate skillsets, at appropriate venues.
I'll use top-rope climbing as an example. It's an appropiate activity because it challenges people. We look for instructors who have demonstrated mastery of anchor systems (ground and top), belay techniques, and the soft skills to follow "challenge by choice." Our venues are areas where multiple ropes can be set with as low of an implact as possible to the area nd its users and feature a wide enough range of grades so that anyone who puts forth a reasonable amount of effort can dinish the day feeling successful. Never underestimate the power of a 5.2.
If you follow the above (especially challenge by choice) when setting up climbing trips, it's really pretty safe, physically and emotionally. I've never had an injury in a group I've led climbing. But safety relies on people setting up good trips using the above principles, and I think this applies whether you're leading a group of 10 ajudicated boys or you and a buddy are going to climb something tall.
Sure, you can do everything right and still die, but I would guess over 99% of climbing accidents could have been prevented by the climber following some realy basic safety tenets. Knot the ends of your rope, use a prussic backup, clip or clove the anchor, use ground anchors, teach belay/lowering skills in a gym or low angle slab, on and on.
What I'm trying to say in so (way too many) words is that the actual danger in climbing is not in climbing, it's in climbers.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
|
There is some interesting work going into the sociology of avalanche accidents, at least for backcountry skiers. It suggests that the risk increases significantly if:
 There are both men and women in the party, particularly young men and young women. (Boys will be stupid boys.)
The party is larger. (Lowest common denominator "decision-making".)
The people involved know each other less well. (Lack of unity of purpose/strategy.)
This probably applies to other groups and environments, although avalanche risk assessment and route finding tend to be more formalized.
29 climbing/mountaineering people that I knew have died since I began climbing. Of the 15 who I would say were friends, not just acquaintances - that is, people I'd climbed and skied with - 8 or more died in avalanches. Out of the 29, 12 died in avalanches. Two died of cancer, two in car crashes, one in a helicopter crash, and one (Daryl) fell out of a tree. Eight died in climbing or rappelling falls.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
By Constance Dillon (Contact)
Originally published 03:19 p.m., November 30, 2008
Updated 04:44 p.m., November 30, 2008
A 33-year-old-woman fell to her death while climbing Mt. Shasta on Friday, Siskiyou County Sheriff’s Department spokeswoman Susan Gravenkamp said Sunday.
The woman and two men were making their first attempt to climb Mt. Shasta. All three were from out of the area, Gravenkamp said
The trio were on the Avalanche Gulch route, on the southwest side of Mt. Shasta, when the woman fell about 8:30 a.m., Gravenkamp said.
The Avalanche Gulch route is at an elevation of 11,300 feet.
The woman slipped and fell an estimated 600 to 1,500 feet, hitting several rock outcroppings, Gravenkamp said
When the two men reached her, they found she had suffered head injuries, was not breathing and had no pulse. They attempted to resuscitate her, but she did not respond to CPR, Gravenkamp said.
|
|
pk_davidson
Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
|
|
Note the often common thread among the near misses:
Partners checking partners.
Our mantra: doubled back, through it all, properly rigged ?
Climb on.
|
|
gooth
climber
San Francisco
|
|
There was a fascinating article in the New Yorker magazine about how something as simple as a checklist can make complicated procedures much safer. Consider what happens in an ICU:
"A decade ago, Israeli scientists published a study in which engineers observed patient care in I.C.U.s for twenty-four-hour stretches. They found that the average patient required a hundred and seventy-eight individual actions per day, ranging from administering a drug to suctioning the lungs, and every one of them posed risks. Remarkably, the nurses and doctors were observed to make an error in just one per cent of these actions—but that still amounted to an average of two errors a day with every patient."
With the addition of a simple checklist, they found the rates of simple errors went down by a huge margin. The idea isn't exactly new, either. Checklists have been a staple for flying and they've definitely made things safer:
"Instead, they came up with an ingeniously simple approach: they created a pilot’s checklist, with step-by-step checks for takeoff, flight, landing, and taxiing ... With the checklist in hand, the pilots went on to fly the Model 299 a total of 1.8 million miles without one accident."
The point is, rappelling and many other things we do in climbing is pretty much a series of actions that much be done in sequence. Maybe we would all benefit if we instituted an internal checklist and stuck to it .. I'm sure many of us do.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande
|
|
PRRose
climber
Boulder
|
|
I have been saved by a prussik during rappelling.
It was my first year climbing after having completed an AMC course. The course taught rappelling using a body rap as well as with a biner brake. I rapped off a small but overhung cliff with a body rap; as I descended, the rope ran up under my shirt and I lost control due to either pain or surprise. The prussik backup kept me from unwinding from the rope and plunging.
I doubt that there are very many climbers attempting a body rap these days. It was certainly the last time I used one.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!