Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 29, 2008 - 11:26pm PT
|
You know how some people are afraid to fly but don't think twice about driving in heavy traffic to the airport? How folks smoke cigarettes and fear terrorists?
It also seem that thing that seem logically prone to happen (like a daisy fall breaking your back or the piece, don't actually turn out as bad as simple math would predict)
So what I'm proposing for those who would collaborate on research, is to explore what accidents actually happen in climbing and what are their cause?
I can think of horribly dangerous things that I've seen totally new climbers do but somehow there must be a God because I don't hear of too many people buying the farm after messing up without proper instruction in their first week climbing. Still, like driving I have to imagine the period of inexperience has significant hazards.
But then once you know where the danger line is, it's easier to approach that line. What hurts and kills experienced climbers? (car accident and heart attacks most likely but we're talking on the crags) My guess is that fatigue and inattention play the most serious role.
Somethings that seem ok really seem to mess people up, like jumaring and rappelling. (but have you been saved by a rappel prussic or do people die rapping for silly reasons?)
I'm not going to define the boundaries of the topic too much. Let's see what you have to say.
Peace
karl
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2008 - 11:57pm PT
|
"(but have you been saved by a rappel prussic or do people die rapping for silly reasons?)"
A Squamish incident: guy was rapping and feet cut away, he threw out both hands in front of his face to save his head from cracking into the rock, lost control of the rappel and was badly injured though not killed
A different sort of near-miss that happened to me: freed through overhang listed in guide as aid, arrived at anchor too exuberant to think, started to lean back and caught myself just in time before weighting an imaginary clip
So, 2 situations I try to look out for
a sudden unexpected slip and
too much happiness leading to inattention
I almost never use a prusik on rappel, though.
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:01am PT
|
Nice, Karl.
I once read that people would pay more for flight insurance against getting killed on an airplane flight as a result of terrorists, than getting killed on an airplane flight.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:09am PT
|
"But then once you know where the danger line is, it's easier to approach that line. What hurts and kills experienced climbers?"
Getting old, crusty, slow with the reflexes and cratering, off of mundane stuff.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:33am PT
|
About the time I started climbing (69-70) I also bought a motorcycle. Now being young and pennyless my instruction for both came from the even then hopelessly outdated, (even then) LACO library system. Rubifat and Terray were not much help in the instruction column, strong on inspiration though.
I was a bit more fourtunate on the motorcycle side and it has application to climbing. I picked up a book written by a British motorcycle racing champion who had managed to survive the sport. Along with practical tips he kept track of the statistics and came up with a few conclusions that are applicable.
In the first 5000 miles you ARE going to crash and the outcome is primarily luck although following a few principles and techniques will greatly increase your chances of diminishing the negative consiquences.
Once you get past a certain point in experience and competence, the chances of dire consequence diminish significantly.
However, after a certain point (100k miles or so) complacency sets in and the chances of killing yourself once again increases.
I've seen this plenty of times with more experienced climbers. The half worn thru belay locker, the "good enough" anchor. Been guilty of it plenty of times myself.
Back to the "theoretical versus real" If you are opperating in the "leader never falls" sphere most of the acutraments do fall into the "theoretical". You will probably never test them.
Opperating in the "falls are part of the process" sphere, it all better work as expected, every time.
This said with the realization that for most of us that transition between spheres takes place somewhere in the 5.9-5.10 range.
Old quote from my pa, although he used it in a completely different context.
"Familiarity breeds contempt"
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:59am PT
|
This is a great topic. Before going into personal-experience mode, though, it is worth pointing out that there is a tremendous storehouse of information on this subject in the many decades of Accidents In North American Mountaineering. Probably similar material in Europe.
There is a lot of obvious stuff that will undoubtedly be brought up, but one thing that isn't so obvious is what Andy (MH2) mentioned above: exuberance.
A few years back I took a friend ice climbing in the Rockies (the real Rockies. The ones in Canada.) He was a 5.12 sport climber, but no gumby. That is, he'd put up plenty of routes, was used to rapelling into difficult places, was thoughtful, not arrogant, willing to learn... Anyway, after a few days of easy things, he led a pitch with a real free-hanging curtain -- the third or fourth pitch of whatever we were climbing. When I got up to where he was belaying, he was totally ecstatic. Just like Andy after he freed the aid roof.
So we traversed a few meters of easy ground to the descent station (a big tree), tied the ropes together, and threaded them through the rap setup. He went first. For no reason that I can pin down, I took a look at his setup -- and screamed at him just as he was about to step back over 500 feet of air.
He'd threaded only one of the ropes through his rap device. If I hadn't looked, he'd have died. And maybe I would have as well, trying to down-solo 500 ft.
Anyway, the cause was his exuberance at having pulled off the most difficult lead of his life. And it really was just luck that I checked his setup.
D
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2008 - 01:18am PT
|
Walleye, that guy was probably a whacko.
"started to lean back and caught myself just in time before weighting an imaginary clip"
I've stopped a couple people from that over the years.
Here's a fall scenario that has happened to me and my friend just broke his ankle doing this:
You are doing some cruxy moves and your hand is finally getting to touch the jug that ends the difficulty. You lose awareness of you foot contact and body position in anticipation of the salvation and your foot skids and off you go.
Stay aware, aware, aware of everything all the time. Crashed in the talus on a descent and banged my elbow last week. Random or do we let our guard down easier when we're not on the sharp end or doing hard moves?
Peace
karl
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:51am PT
|
I fear rockfall and sharp edges the most.
So I wear a helmet and climb on double ropes.
|
|
maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 01:59am PT
|
Dan Millman in, "The Warrior Athlete" contends that injury happens when you are not in full focus. I've found that to be 100% accurate.
Driving home from Pinnacles tonight we almost hit this big, black boar. My partner was driving and he was really watching. I didn't see or even understand what it was until the moment had passed.
Pretty much the same story when you injure yourself. I used to get cocky. "Man, I am really charging this trail" and then I would invariably roll an ankle. Now I know that thought is a precursor to injury. I very rarely do that anymore.
|
|
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 02:13am PT
|
i am pretty new to leading so this topic interests me...also I saw my wife ledge out on a 5.8 and break her ankle and then recover to the point of being able to get back on the sharp end.
coaching her/psyching her up to get past the irrational fears without neglecting the very rational ones made me think a lot about this.
based on all of that, my biggest worry is getting the rope behind my leg or slipping on something ledgy.
I am beginning to realize instances of irrational fear and then persist without temerity-- in many instances irrational fear can make the actual danger increase. I noticed this especially on slabs and liebacks where commitment makes or breaks the sequence of moves.
I think once the comfort level increases to the point of complacency when you no longer are in tune with the various fears. Recognizing a fear as being irrational is necessary to overcome it and deal with it and subsequently sift out valid concerns to then address.
Fear sounds a little strong; I dont mean horror or terror, just that red flags (concern) should go off and you should be always running through the checklist ok-ing the issues in question.
I wouldnt say that my theories are "right" but that's where I am right now. Maybe this approach will keep me out of the "solid 5.10 leader club" for a while, but when I do reach that level I will really be solid mentally as well as physically, through and through.
I hope this wasnt too disjointed or irrelevant. Sometimes I forget what the question was by the end of my raving...
|
|
Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 02:46am PT
|
You do not get any second chances in this sport, not like mtn biking or kayaking.
So you need to study well, the consequences at hand.
A river has spots where you can take it easy and screw around for a while, but a slab needs constant attention, I am finding out.
|
|
scooter
climber
fist clamp
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 03:57am PT
|
Full length daisy fall onto a bathook in limestone. Hook held, no breaks of bones, rock, gear.
P
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 09:13am PT
|
I had just followed someone up High Exposure and we were rapping down. He suggested we simu-rap, and so we started to set up. I was a little nervous about the idea, as I'd never even considered doing it before, and remember being focused on understanding the issue of counterweighting each other.
So we were talking about that while setting up.
And I, not paying full attention where I should have been, threaded my device on auto-pilot(pushed rope through both slots but not around the carabiner). I had on a prussik, as I do 99% of the time(one of my sacrifices to the climbing gods, I say to anyone who give me crap about it), and I guess that would have saved the both of our lives had he not seen/mentioned that I'd set up wrong.
I still get a queazy feeling in my stomach thinking about it. He was really nonchalant about the whole thing, which at the time made it all the more mortifying. I was glad of my prussik habit, but it really didn't make the f up "okay."
It felt like the climbing gods were looking at me, shaking their heads, and tut tutting amongst themselves. And the realization that it was only luck, really, that made the difference. Quite humbling. But anyway - this incident is why I get a little irritated when people give me sh#t about using a prussik all the time.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2008 - 09:58am PT
|
I think this is going to be a valuable thread. Some great contributions so far.
I think TGT raises some great points. Don't miss his post.
Here's the aac links for the accident book
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pages/page/72
They probably need to make money by having this book for sale but it might be worth aspiring to the day when somebody with money whose life gets saved by some climbing wisdom (or his heirs if he lost it) could subsidize putting the Journal online (maybe a year after publication) for free. That might save some people in the end.
PCEx raises a great point about being flipped over by a rope between your legs. Most instructional sources fail to emphasize it but, particularly on slabby rock and aid climbs, and certainly when you are to the left or right of your last pro, it's essential to get the rope from between your legs so you don't trip over it upside down.
When I first started leading, I had myself trained on hard slaps to skip my leg over the rope when falling. It took me so long to figure that one out and I've flipped upside down on at least a half dozen leader falls.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 11:40am PT
|
166+ climbers were killed in European Alps due to avalanche related accident followed by over 34+ climbers who died in Himalayas from Jan 08- Nov-30-08.At least 16 + climbers where killed in North America, almost half fell off from the end of the line while rapping.
|
|
JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 11:43am PT
|
Karl wrote, "have you been saved by a rappel prussic?"
Maybe. I was leading "Conns East" at Seneca on one of those hot, humid summer days. Probably not hydrated enough or sick in some way. Anyway, as I brought my partner up p1 I noticed that my hands were starting to cramp really badly. They would get into this claw-like position from which the fingers couldn't be moved. The cramps lasted several seconds, during which it was hard to grip, and pulling hard on the fingers made them worse.
The second pitch begins with a few layback moves and after a couple of attempts it became clear that my hands weren't going to let me lead it that day. So we set a rappel to retreat. Somewhere on the way down the cramps started again in my brake hand (or maybe both hands? I don't remember for sure). Despite my efforts I had to let go the line and the prusik held me until the spasm passed.
I don't know what would have happened without the backup knot. Maybe fear for my life would have forced the muscles, which it seemed that I couldn't move, to hold on until I could get a rest somehow. I do know, though, that I was *really* grateful for the prusik that day!
Peace
JohnR
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
|
"At least 16 + climbers where killed in North America, almost half fell off from the end of the line while rapping."
Thanks. it might be worth discussing some procedural method to facilitate tying knots in the rope ends but that made it tough to space out and let the rope end get out of your control before it's time to pull the rope (and then get your rope stuck)
When I'm concerned with rapping off the rope, I like tie two individual knots so they can rotate independently and not create a big tangle
peace
Karl
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:35pm PT
|
"166+ climbers were killed in European Alps due to avalanche related accident" Jan thru Nov 2008
Of the approx 150 people I've climbed with for at least a full day over the years, 4 out of the 5 who I know have died climbing died when something fell on them. Often that possibility 'comes with the territory', meaning snow and ice in high places.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:39pm PT
|
Karl
Stop in RC and do a search in their I&A. I am sure I posted plenty of accident report there this year.Two of the most interesting ones were when two experienced climbers both in North America fell from one side of the rope when they accidentally placed the end of the rope marking as the half marking on the anchor and came up short on side of the rope and fell to their death.
I am guessing, rope Mfgs are looking in to removing such markings on ropes.
Majid
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!