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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Blue wrote
"Republican is a political party that tended towards conservative policies regarding gov't in the past. Nowadays, Repubs have become greedy and beholden to lobbyists and neo-conservative policy. Neo-con's are all about capitalism, but it's capitalism-at-all-costs, profits, profits, profits, with little regard for financial stability or responsibility.
As far as an attraction to capitalism it's obvious that neo-cons would love a totally unregulated capitalism. Repub's are perceived to be capitalists because they are perceived to be better money managers, pro-business, and tend to advocate a free-market with minimal gov't intervention. "
The irony is that, during the past 80 years, the stock market, on average, has done FAR better under DEM administrations and federal deficits have increased LESS by far under DEM administrations. So what's up with this GOP reputation for being business friendly?
Ironically, economics is a strange thing. Sometimes results are counter-intuitive. Ya gotta give to get.
So the neo-cons have mostly focused on the redistribution of wealth to the ultra wealthy without caring for the economy as a whole.
The neo-cons complained that Government sucked and privatization was the answer but then Haliburton, Bectel, and the rest charged WAY more than the military would have spent doing it themselves and largely left their work undone and money lost.
My suggestion is that a NEW conservatism spend money responsibly, whether on social programs or military, based on a strict analysis of cost-benefits and a strenuous program of efficiency and wise streamlining. It would be easier to reform government to make it work lean, efficient and smart than to get rid of government and hope business takes care of all our problems. We've seen where they go with that.
Peace
Karl
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"what is it about these ideologies that was so attractive to capitalist interests that resulted in them being associated so closely?"
Capitalist like the republicans ( who are not conservative ) because republicans have been pushing for deregulation of everything. It is short sighted thinking because non regulation leads to wild swings in the market.
Blue says he wants a free market but he wants regulation. Therefore he does not understand what a free market is, because a free market is just that, free of regulation.
Free markets do not work for the average person because the average person is not perfectly informed and does not have perfect access to the things the wealthy do. To have a perfectly running free market everyone must be perfectly inform. This is not possible, therefore the whole notion of "free market" is silly.
What we need is a regulated market with checks and balances that strive for a balanced and equitable playing field. It is not easy to do, but a "free" market is impossible.
I think some time needs to be spent on defining terms.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Bluering,
Sorry it's taken so long to join this thread. I felt the Obamanators deserved a day to celebrate, and I a day to reflect before letting fly. Here are my thoughts briefly.
First, I believe that modern political conservatism has its roots in Adam Smith (who greatly mistrusted the interaction of business and government), Barry Goldwater (who believed in a strong defense, but had a strong respect for personal freedom) and Milton Friedman (who understood that economic freedom was something good in its own right, and had the courage to speak up in an academic environment quite hostile to his views).
With these thoughts in mind, I offer the following:
1. As you noted, the Republicns are a political party. In my opinion, the reason they lost the last two elections has much to do with their actions being indistinguishable from those of the Democrats. They tried to gerrymander their way into power (see Tom DeLay), spend their way into power (see Ted Stevens), and Jingoize their way to power (see Tom Tancredo). Their only apparent principle was a desire for power. We deserve to be in the wilderness for a while. It may clear our minds.
2. Conservatives should get our principles from our beliefs and from our experience, not from opinion polls. As the last two elections and the last six years show, we make lousy Democrats.
3. Conservatives should promote the general economic welfare, not that of particular interest groups. We should neither support nor oppose corporations, labor, farmers, importers, exporters, etc. We support the American people as a whole.
4. Conservatives should emphasize that the people and organizations that provide the goods and services that we consume are heroes, not villains. Modern Democrats' villains are corporations that provide pharmaceutical and petroleum products, automobiles, food, clothing, housing and just about eveything else we want. Their heroes are plaintiffs' lawyers, labor unions and government employees. We must be broader than that. We must remind those around us that prosperity dosen't come from killing the goose that lays the golden eggs -- all we get is goose guts.
5. Conservatives believe that peoples' abilities and actions are more important in determining where they end up than is luck or unfairness. We should be very wary of schemes that redistribute anything, subject to my next point.
6. Conservatives should recognize that concern for the poor and the less fortunate is a concern of all of us, but that the government is has a unique role to play there. Otherwise, only those who cared would pay, and those who didn't could freeload and not do their share. To that extent, at least, redistribution is appropriate, necessary and moral, but it must be a redistribution that is designed to make people independent. For too long, our system made people dependent for ever.
7. Conservatives should be pro-immigration. Anti-immigration was originally the province of the labor unions trying to restrict the labor supply. Most immigrants I know work hard, have strong ethical and family ties, and want to be good Americans, but I'm prejudiced. My mother is an immigrant, and my father a first-generation American. Immigrants are our natural allies, and as much of our hope for the future as our own children. We should embrace them, not exclude them.
8. Conservatives believe in the equality of humanity. We do not support special privileges for people because of their gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or any other criterion other than ability and actions. We need to be loyal to that principal, regardless of who we may wish to defend or dump on.
9. Finally, conservatives need to fight for free speech for all. We, of all people, should know what it's like to express unpopular views -- particularly if we've spent time at mainstream Universities, or even fora such as this one. We need to remember that the only speech that really needs protection is offensive speech; otherwise, who cares? When we defend the rights of others from things like speech codes, we defend our rights to free debate, intellectual liberty and the sort of exchange of ideas that leads to truth.
Sorry for the length. If I had more time, I'd write a shorter rant, but I have to go terrify myself accompanying a chamber choarale on music I've had no chance to rehearse. Thanks for starting the thread, Blue.
John
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Wow John. No wonder you hate democrats. Thankfully what you believe about democrats is incredibly off base.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 09:34pm PT
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Nice post, John, I agree almost completely. Not you Moosie. You covered most of my generalizations and expanded them a bit and I agree for the most part.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I don't agree with all John's points on Democrats but I think he is pointing to higher ideals of conservatism in an intelligent way. Nice post.
Peace
karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Ya know, what you so-called conservatives need to learn first, is that conservatives actually CONSERVE stuff.
You can look it up.
As in way back to Teddy Roosevelt, reforesting America, and all that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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dirt, read the thread, we tend to agree on conservationism, it's the fringe crap where it gets sticky.
Edit: What we're not mentioning, because it's a conservative focused thread, is that Dem party has been over-run by far left anarchists and commies that leaves a bigger gap in the non-existant middle, the 'undecideds'.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I'd say your post JEl, captures alot well, other than I don't think, regarding point #4, that most Democrats regard all corporations as evil. More the greedy executives that have come to run them at the expense of everyone else.
Beyond that, I'd say most of your points fit with what I would like Democrats to be as well. I don't see many of those values as particularly conservative or liberal.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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fatrad,
From what I have read of your posts you and I disagree on the definition of
Fiscal Responsibility
Social Responsibilty
Environmental Resposibility
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bluering "What we're not mentioning, because it's a conservative focused thread, is that Dem party has been over-run by far left anarchists and commies that leaves a bigger gap in the non-existant middle, the 'undecideds'."
This is pure nonsense Bluering. The Democrats have become very much a center party. You don't understand what "extreme left" means.
If I were to take quote and policies from the Clinton administration and put them along side those from Bush 1 and 2, you would be hard pressed to find any difference.
If we put statistics regarding spending and debt up against those GOP guys, you'd find it hard to find anything extreme and would probably envy the Clinton numbers.
The only "extreme" policies in the past 20 years have come from the Bush administration.
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"that Dem party has been over-run by far left anarchists and commies"
What absurd nonsense! However, the Republicans overuse empty rhetoric - terms like "liberal", "socialism", "pinko" etc etc etc - to the point that they are absolutely meaningless. It is schoolyard name-calling by supposed adults, and cheapens political debate.
A year or so ago, I asserted in one of these political threads that the U.S. is by definition a liberal democracy. There are nuances, but your country is a textbook example of one. I was jumped on by the "conservatives", none of whom had any idea what a liberal actually was, and all of whom simply used it as what they thought was an insult, an empty one.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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John raises points of the kinds that the Republicans need to have an honest discussion about if that party is to have a future. I don't agree with all that he says.
The Republicans need to address some key issues, including:
 What are they FOR, not just what they are AGAINST.
The proper role of the government, given that it is clear that it is needed as a moderating influence on economic and social excess, and that many problems can only be addressed by it.
That their rhetorical opposition to government damages the country, and has been proven false. As a wealthy liberal democracy, like other developed countries, something like 40% of US GDP goes to government, altogether. A bit more in crisis, less in really good times. In the US, a bit more on the military, and a bit less on social programs. That will never change.
Health care, which makes up 13% of GDP, a rapidly growing proportion. Much more than other countries with more efficient systems, and better results. A national embarrassment, only solvable by a national effort. A healthy country is one with a future.
Education. An educated country is one with a future.
Uniting instead of dividing, that is finding the golden mean.
Honest recognition that many problems (environment, health care, economic regulation) can only be addressed if the government takes an active role.
The importance of traditional American values, such as thrift, prudence, foresight, modest national pride, honesty, etc. The kinds of things that Obama talked about on Tuesday. Not the so-called "family values" which have been so abused.
In short, admitting that the Republican ideology of the last 40 years, and particularly the last 28 years, has largely proven bankrupt. Admitting that you were wrong is the most important step: "Hi. I'm John, and I'm a Republican." The first step of many.
There certainly is a need for a principled, strong conservative party, but also one that has regained its sanity.
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apogee
climber
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The terms of 'liberal' 'conservative' 'socialist' yadda, yadda, yadda HAVE become so overused, they are virtually worthless, except for the purposes of namecalling and ST spray & nuking. I have strong doubts that most people (myself included) who post here on ST have a clear understanding of these terms in their historical contexts, and instead understand them due to their interactions with their families, chosen friends & community.
A little research into the histories of these ideologies has shown me that very little dialogue that takes place in these political dialogues is based on historical (edit:) definitions of these ideologies. Without a clear understanding of the history, true meanings & core values of conservatism and the Republican party (edit:), it's pretty hard to have a discussion about how to 'restore conservatism'.
Bluering- I, too appreciate you starting this thread- it's a very good discussion. There's no question that the Democratic party could use some restoring, and that is a thread I will also appreciate. For now, I hope the focus can remain on your OP, and not be distracted by potshots or the obvious issues with liberalism/Democrats (whatever the hell that means).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Karl and Anders, you guys are high. To make it seem like Dems never make stupid calls is ridiculous and disengenuous.
Which party do you think anarchists and Marxists vote for? I didn't tell them to subscribe to this crap. They do though.
Wait, we were talking conservative values...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Blue,
Karl and Anders did not say that dems NEVER make stupid calls. They said that they aren't OVERRUN by by far left anarchists and commies.
You make it sound like that is ALL the dems are. Once again failing to recognize that they are the only party to balance the budget and start to pay down the national debt.
ah crap dude. I'm out of here.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I'd guess not too many true anarchists, Marxists, Communists, etc. vote Democratic. If you're truly an anarchist, either you don't vote, or you vote for whoever you think is most likely to screw govt up and cause anarchy. The true Marxists would see the party as too conservative and too beholden to lobbyists.
Some of them might have voted for Nader or Ron Paul.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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wow, mynameismud comes out from under his rock!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Which party do you think anarchists and Marxists vote for?"
How many anarchists and Marxists do you think there are? Don't you think they favor third parties? Don't they have very little in common?
Understand that Anarchism (no government to be overly simple) is much closer to "conservative" values and those guys tend to be Libertarians.
Bluering. Never said that Democrats were infallible and my remark that Clinton and Bush 1 weren't very far apart is not necessarily a compliment to either.
We have to really open our minds. Who cares what these words like "conservative" and "liberal" mean? It's a new world and our system, perhaps you've noticed but haven't fully felt it yet, is crashing down!@@
So we should ask ourselves. What are our real values? What can work in our society? What is sustainable and unsustainable? How do we get to a point where maximum prosperity is reached by the maximum number of people while oppression is experienced to a minimum degree by the least number (or do you believe in "winner take all and the rest screw themselves?"
We may find that a combination of symbiotic values will contribute to a path that will lead us in a direction that we don't have the vision to comprehend at the moment. A new paradigm of society will be knocking on the door, as incomprehensible to us now as democracy was to feudal kingdoms of the middle ages. We are going to need "change" in a big way because, I think you'll see in the next few decades, change is coming whether we like it or not.
PEace
Karl
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Well. I susrvived my ordeal by piano (I had to virtually sight-read every chorus from Handel's Messiah because our regular accompanist was not able to be there tonight). My forearms feel like I've spent the last four hours in the gym.
Thanks for the good words. John Moosie, I'm not sure why you think I hate Democrats (as opposed to disagree with some of what they say). My mother, much of the rest of my family, and most of my friends are Democrats, and I certianly don't hate Obama. Anyone who's fed up with the BCS (I'd prefer they drop the "C") can't be all bad.
The only points I made about Democrats (as opposed to conservatives) in my post were that conservatives make lousy Democrats, and that modern Democrats have demonized corporations that provide essential goods and services.
I think the first point should be self-evident. I base my second comment (Point No. 4 in the post) on the constant attacks I've heard on oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, automobile manufacturers, developers, etc. by so many Democratic politicians and their supporters, including those here. Many Republican politicians commit the same sin, but many other Repulican politicians defend these same enterprises. When was the last time you heard a Democratic politician praising oil producers, or drug developers? I find that a legitimate and important difference between us.
Otherwise, I appreciate everyone's comments (Actually, I appreciate my critics' comment, too). The electorate has spoken, and we need all the help we can get.
John
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