restoring Conservatism (ot)

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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
Well, my fellow conservatives, we've just been handed a mandate for 'change'. It's begging for more of a return to classic conservative principles. Financial responsibility, smaller gov't, strong military, and a focus on U.S. national needs (less of a global interventionist).

The last one is debatable for me, the others are musts.

Bobby Jindal....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jindal
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
Start making authentic arguments and being willing to compromise where it is good for the country. Marginalizing your opponents as "socialist" (and then believing your own propaganda) clearly didn't work. The tenants of actual conservatism as you describe them above are noble and worthy. They deserve better arguments and champions than they have had these past 15 years.
Brick

Social climber
SF, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
i dunno...

i really don't think we need yet ANOTHER FREAKIN POLITICAL THREAD today

OP, feel free to delete it
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 09:47pm PT
HDDJ, let's not forget some of the attacks on Palin/McCain. The whole media slant about Obama being the victim is crap. They attacked McCain/Palin in all directions.

They both slung crap. Obama just let internet/MSM do it. Let's not digress fron the topic though. Conservatives need a younger, smart, conservative who isn't a religious zealot. Someone who's an old school conservative that is willing to tell the country-club Repub's to go fu-k themselves.

Jindal could be that guy. Romney might work too.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
re: "Financial responsibility, smaller gov't, strong military, and a focus on U.S. national needs (less of a global interventionist)"


i've got the perfect politician for you pal:























(here's a hint, he looks a lot like a black guy!)








edit-
bluguy, what "crap", exactly, did obama "sling"?

that (both hillary and) mccain had supported the war from the start?
that he'd claimed "the fundamentals of the economy [were] strong"?

and what "crap" did the press "sling"?
that mccain had picked a bimbo instead of a statesman?





just put a cork in it pal, it will be awhile before you are taken seriously by anyone
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:49pm PT
" Obama just let internet/MSM do it"

Dang dude, you have a hard on for Obama. Sorry, but Obama ran mostly a clean campaign. Saying that other folks did his trash talking is bogus.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
The military of the United States is plenty strong, and has been for decades. It needs to be used rarely and efficiently when essential.

Conservatives need to stop being so paranoid about being attacked by other countries, like they were about Iraq, and realize that having a strong infrastructure, energy independence, education system and health care system are more important than our ability to "kick ass!!! ".

We need to handle conflicts with other nations through advanced diplomacy, rather than myopic belligerence.

That's where a man like Barack Obama is going to shine.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
Brick, this a thread intended for climbers who'd like to discuss the future of Conservative politics. Conservatives and liberals alike, everybody's welcome.

By posting to a thread you disapprove of, you just bumped it. Congrats.

Also, there was really no other relative thread to post my ideas to so I started a new one....SUE ME!!!!

Why don't you bitch to t*r for starting stupid threads she could have avoided..."I'm bouncing around the room".
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
"(here's a hint, he looks a lot like a black guy!)"

but the black dude is for gay marriage. That leaves him out for Blue.

............

Sorry Blue, but if you want to talk about how to improve the republican party, then perhaps you should leave the slings and arrows at home.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
HDDJ- They are noble goals, though the pacifist in me might argue with the strong military, though maybe not.

The problem is that as long as the democrats have the unions, big business needs a party. There are not enough rich people to out vote the rest of the country so a bargain has to be made with the religious voters, who also don't have a party.

This is why, the GOP drags out the guns god and gays crap every time yet they actually have no intention of solving.

Did they manage to bring Terry Schiavo back to life? Did they pass any legislation to solve that sad situation?

It's a numbers game, and the rational conservatives are screwed.

You know how the reps like to call the dems elitist? That's becuase the whole party is based on elitism. We'll take the tax cuts and deruglation for the big guys, and get the religious idiots to back us, throw one of their leaders a cush job and call it a day.

Personally, as a left wing libertarian, I know all about not having a party.

Tom

Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
re: "Why don't you bitch to t*r for starting stupid threads"
we get the feeling she can't help it-
you, on the other hand...
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
I kind of like political threads with the climbers. If I debated all my lefty friends I'd get bored, here we have differnent people from all over the country brought together by climbing. Lot of different people with different points of view.

There's a lot of crap to be sure, but I've learned things even from Juan.

Tom
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
Matt, try to avoid personal attacks, it makes these discussions a lot more tolerable and easier to follow. Otherwise it inevitably descends into bullsh#t.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:02pm PT
You think we could have a "Strong Military" without spending more than the rest of the whole friggin world COMBINED on it?!

I think so. We could destroy the world several times over. Nobody is going to mess with us hard.

So what is the military for? Invading coutries that don't threaten us right? Cause they have oil?

i think we'd be more fiscally responsible spending about 1/2 what we do on arms and military and NOBODY could still even dream of threatening us.

Peace

Karl
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:05pm PT
How do you restore conservatism? Perhaps by realizing that the dems are more fiscally conservative and thus dumping the repubs.

Name one republican president who offered a balanced budget. I bet you can't.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 10:05pm PT
Karl, I mostly agree with that.

I'm thinking I may kill this thread and start a Third Party thread. After all the Repubs will not embrace a true conservative party, which is actually indicative of a bigger problem with our 2 parties. Corruption and elitism.

John, all modern Conservatives did spend a lot. Especially the Bush's. There were also cuts with the spending.

Let's stay on point, though, the last eight years were fiscal socialism. At least fiscal drunkeness. I don't disagree.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
Good idea, start a third party thread. I'll found the communist libertarian party. We gotta fix health care, but leave me the f*#k alone!

Tom
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:27pm PT
Blue, no republican president in history has ever offered a balanced budget. I think my point is in line with what you are trying to accomplish. How do you restore conservatism? You realize that the republicans are not conservatives and vote democrat. At least if your above list is really what you want. The only two conservative agendas that the republicans have ever supported is anti abortion and anti gay marriage. Two things that aren't on your list above.

From this article.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0927-03.htm



Forbes Magazine's online edition performed a valuable public service in July when it ran a story comparing the economic performance of the ten postwar presidents. Forbes is the right-leaning business publication that goes by the tagline, "Capitalist Tool." Its publisher, Steve Forbes, is a big hitter in Republican circles and ran as a Republican candidate for president in 1996 and 2000.

The magazine proposed six different metrics by which a president's economic performance should be judged. They are: GDP growth, real disposable personal income, employment, unemployment, inflation, and deficit reduction. All are mainstream benchmarks with their data easily accessible to any serious inquirer.

It is a measure of Forbes' integrity that it let the chips fall where they may: the top three performing presidents - Clinton, Johnson, and Kennedy - were all Democrats while the bottom three performers - Nixon, Eisenhower, and Bush the Elder - were all Republicans. The middle of the pack was a mixed bag of all the rest: Reagan; Ford; Carter; and Truman.

There was never a Republican President who balanced the budget because it goes against their traditional values of Enormous Trade Deficits and a Weak U.S. Dollar.


........

Here is the article the common dreams article is written about.

http://www.forbes.com/commerce/2004/07/20/cx_da_0720presidents.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:32pm PT
Bluering, I am going to respectfully suggest that the country has moved a little left of center on almost everything, and as a result the right of center Republican party is a rapidly dying entity. Consider the following:
Social issues - a strong majority of the American people do not want to see the Federal or the State Government take away from women the personal responsiblity for decisions regarding both their own bodies, and the right to make decisions for any fetus inside of them. Republicans have a real problem saying they are the party of personal responsiblity and then denying that right to fully 50% of the voting population. You guys got problems with women voters, big time, now and forever on this issue.
You got a problem saying the Republicans are the party of fiscal responsiblity. Nope, things have changed in the public's mind about that. Not since Johnson's Great Society programs of the sixties, over forty years ago, can you hang the mantle of deficit spending on Democrats. Much recently, the voting public remembers the big deficet spending under both Reagan and now especially under George W Bush. You guys lost the claim to being fiscally responsible when you had all three branches of government from 2000 to 2006 and you incredibly both started an unwanted and unnecessary war while at the same time giving the largest tax cut in history under the guise that if you give more to the already rich, then they will be so grateful that instead of just keeping the extra money, they would surely go create some jobs for the peasants. Well, that did not work, failed miserably, job growth the past 8 years has been pathetic.
Also, another great failure was the conservative mantra of just let markets be free, free, and all will work out. Did not work, Alan Greenspan publically apologized recently and called that his biggest wrong supposition in allowing unfettered deregulation.
So, if you want to say that conservatism has real value, value that voters will agree with and want to elect conservatives, then you have to give them strong reasons to do so. Republicans are now seen as the party of bullheaded intolerance on social issues, the party of irresponsible fiscal policy, and the party that wanted to invade another country so bad that it made up, and then supported with lies, reasons to invade. In short, your brand is tarnished badly, and not because the MSM did you in. It is tarnished because you guys had your chance and you flat blew it.
The country saw the horrors of six years of solid conservative rule and soundly rejected your people in 2006, and again now in this election. You can choose to see this and modify your thinking so that it is more mainsteam instead of right of center, or you can choose to insist that the American people are wrong in their leftward shift, and you can remain the party that offers nothing of interest, and will continue to be thumped in future elections, perhaps for a very long time.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
The military is fine how it is right now. But please understand that funding the military also allows the military to develop stuff like the space program, deterrant weapons, self-defense, and other useful civilian uses.

I'm not saying to grow it, just manage it better, more efficiently. No more contractors too!
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