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capndick4
Boulder climber
The upsidedown house in Lee Vining
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2005 - 03:53pm PT
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"....And Rumsfield, now that I think back/without 9/11 there couldn't be a war in Iraq..."
-Immortal Technique
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 12, 2005 - 04:16pm PT
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"This war is about engaging the enemy on it's home soil"
Are you sure that this is the way to make this country safer?
Looks like the number of available suicide bombers just keeps increasing.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 12, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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enemies of who or what exactly?
what is motivating these people? certainly that's important to understand. I recall the same retoric in Russia regarding the afghan "extremist terrorists" back in 80's.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 12, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
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Dear Mr. Bush,
You suck. Kiss my ass.
Affectionately yours,
Dirtbag
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Ouch!
climber
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May 12, 2005 - 05:36pm PT
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I don't understand all the fuss. Unlike most of the so-called lower animals, Man is an animal who goes out of his way to foul his own nest.
Case in point. While enjoying a perfectly functional democratic institution, we exercise our freedom by voting down on our heads, a theocratic tyranny of heretofore unknown corruption.
We have become so dumbed down and gullible, we deserve what we have dealt to ourselves.
History will record us as less successful than Neanderthal. He couldn't adapt. We could. We didn't.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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May 12, 2005 - 08:17pm PT
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"A majority of the populations in muslim countries look to their religious leaders for guidance on internal/external matters, a fair, but not all, of those clerics still believe in strict interpretation of the Koran. The Koran states that non-believers shall be killed, converted, or enslaved. Current muslim leaders are having the same problem as early christian leaders, follow my god or face the wrath. "
Those don't really seem to be the sole problems of EARLY Christian leaders...curent Christian leaders might dress up a lot of their speech but they advocate essentially the same thing. "Blow them all away...in the name of the Lord." Wasn't that what Jerry Falwell said?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 12, 2005 - 08:29pm PT
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Talking about yourself again .....Matt
harsh werner, and i always let you slide w/ all that psuedo spiritual crap (to quote from another thread) that you always post up here, as if whatever you have read and found important to your own experience is necessarily equally as valid for everyone else's experience.
anyway- since you sometimes come off as such a wise old man, i had no idea you would identify with the idea that your generation needs to live down their viet nam experiences by starting another misguided war, based (once again) upon our own government's misrepresentations and falsehoods, against an undefined foe, in an environment that precludes any chance of a clear victory...
...who knew.
hey fratguy, why is it that the evangelical christian right, along w/ the rest of you chickenhawk rich folks who so fully and openly support the current war effort, are not taking care of the armed force's current recruitment troubles by shoving their own offspring into service? seems from where i am sitting that your brand of patriosm is pretty well naked of any real commitment to cause and country.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 12, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
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dimitry wrote:
enemies of who or what exactly?
what is motivating these people? certainly that's important to understand. I recall the same retoric in Russia regarding the afghan "extremist terrorists" back in 80's.
gee whiz- i wonder what could be motivating them...?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050512/pl_nm/security_usa_koran_dc
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2005 - 09:41pm PT
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It's ok Matt, I just said it to see what you'd say. Kind of a loopback thing. And you let me slide?
OMG, remember .... I'm a nobody.
Happy debate
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 13, 2005 - 08:32am PT
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The Koran desecration reports are indeed most unhelpful to the US image in the muslim world.
Enough of a motivator to kill the "non-believers" though? A little more extreme response than even "an eye for an eye".
My point is that I recall how the Russian public was led to believe that there were just these "crazed fanatical animals" out there in Afghanistan; that we needed to defeat them in order to preserve our way of life in Russia. That resulted in a bloody stalemate, no matter how much money and troops we (and Pakistan etc, aided by the US) pumped in there.
Sounds familiar?
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 13, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
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per fattrad:
"The true story about the Koran issue is that a prisoner ripped a few pages from his US provided Koran and tried to plug up a toilet to cause trouble. Of course clerics/media are repeating an untrue story."
How does anyone knows what is actually true in this case?
Are you saying that a few overworked and underpaid undereducated prison guards would not consider throwing a Koran in the toilet to embrarass and enrage a muslim prisoner?
That's not that important: there will always be people on both sides behaving immoraly. The problem arises when we start to find mitigating circumstances for disgusting behavior (of an individual or of an entire government).
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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May 13, 2005 - 08:20pm PT
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Yeah I can't say i trust you any more than the media. And I think you are stretching the 'it is certainly possible' a little much. They did all kinds of rediculous crap at Gitmo and got zilch for information. From the sounds of it every time the FBI got anywhere with prisoners the military hopped in and wrecked any progress with their newfound exemptions from the Geneva Convention.
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Kirk Kobmann
Trad climber
Milford, MI
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May 14, 2005 - 03:59pm PT
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You guys are all over the map. Starting somewhere around an anti-Bush bike ride with a specious connection to oil and ending up somewhere around militant Islam. Maybe the postmodern deconstruction thing is right after all! All is vanity!
(Werner: judging from this so-called thread, you must still be doing the Bhagavad Gita thing?)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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May 16, 2005 - 12:11pm PT
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Well it looks like Mr. Bush went a little overboard to sell an illegal war and now many "innocent" muslims are dead. Let's give it up for Shrub.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 16, 2005 - 12:18pm PT
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"Let's give it up for the liberal media nd extremist clerics."
Do you mean the liberal media that gave Bush a free pass in the days leading up to the war in Iraq? Or the liberal media that hounded Clinton during the Lewinsky days? Or do you mean the liberal media that called the Florida results for Bush in 2000? Or the liberal media that bought into the "Al Gore invented the internet" crap? Or are you taliking about the liberal media that allowed the Swift Boat nonsense to pass as unchecked facts?
Please clarify which liberal media you mean.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 16, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
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you are witnessing a classic case of the right wings much favored "backlash and whitewash" stra-T-ger-ey, wherein the outrage they generate attempts to obscure the fact that the gist of the original story was entirely valid (the approach may have been pioneered in the clarence thomas confirmation hearings and has been used continuously up through the release of the "bogus" controversial gW air national guard service memos).
the fact is that the desecration of the koran has very definitely been reported and investigated, and we (the media consuming public) are meant to infer from all the outrage associated with the newsweek story that the case is closed and it never happened, just as we are asked to believe that ordinary soldiers in the abu graib prison just randomly chose, all on their own and without any orders or instructions from their superiors, to clothe male prisoners in female underwear and force them into humiliating (for them) homosexual positions and acts with other prisoners.
what's more, while it's abundantly clear that the practice of turning their muslim faith against the detainees at gitmo was the core of many standard and common interrogation techniques, any collective memory or regret that sort of unamerican, unchristian, and internationally embarrassing approach can/will now be conveniently erased from the collective consciousness of all those sound-bite consuming americans who are once again fooled by the mock outrage the right wing spews over a dozen deaths in the arab world (take note that these are the same people who justify a preemptive war by saying we are "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here", a rationalization which either ignores or accepts the human costs of war upon the resident population).
http://www.solidarity.com/hkcartoons/mikejune9.html
http://www.solidarity.com/hkcartoons/mikejune10.html
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 16, 2005 - 01:09pm PT
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you wouldn't have the balls for it, you are all talk pal, nothing but a rich fat guy with a grand scheme of building your own impression of the superiority of yourself and your values over other people and their values.
you are the reason that so many people in the world hate this country and what it stands for so very very much, and that is fundamentally at the root of why we as a country are fighting a "war on terror" in the first place. your concept of right and wrong, good vs. evil, is what is right for you vs. what is is wrong for you. you just have no f*#king idea what it's like not to be you... pathetic really, if you ask me.
bet you just love this guy, dontchya
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/boltonun_300k.mov
if only this country really stood for what it was once meant to stand for. instead we have drifted into something that stands for the betterment of ourselves and our standard of living at the expense of anyone or anything that might somehow have a conflicting interest of any kind- and you love that about us, which is basically what makes you and i different-
...well, that, and then i actually do go climbing sometimes, while you cannot even stand up w/out doing some sort of mantle.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 16, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Per fattrad:
"You should see some of the creative persuasion methods that are infrequently used in US institutions, the guys at gitmo have it easy because of the media. "
Are you indicating that use of torture in US institutions is excusable?
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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May 16, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
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"...instead we have drifted into something that stands for the betterment of ourselves and our standard of living at the expense of anyone or anything that might somehow have a conflicting interest of any kind..."
Hasn't this been the complaint from Liberal Land against America for its entire history? Leftwing revisionist history complains about America starting with the Founders themselves (just a bunch of eeeevil white overlords, right?). Why do you think any drifting has taken place at all?
Worldview differences aside, if you don't think that a founding pillar of world history consists of nations bettering themselves & their standard of living at the expense of conflicting interests, then you really have your head in the sand.
But then, that's not an altogether surprising perspective coming from a demographic that thinks partial-birth abortions are great but being Mr. Mean to terrorists is a travesty.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 16, 2005 - 01:30pm PT
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bullsh#t.
the plan is to further radicalize the extemeists so that our military presence will be required in the region for another 20-40 years.
"we neo-cons"
pure comedy, that phrase is. funny that you quote some obscure historical example, in light of the way history is likely to remember that neo-con group.
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