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Blight
Social climber
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May 23, 2005 - 09:56am PT
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80% of young americans are unable to locate Iraq on a world map.
Still, that's not surprising when you consider that 11% are unable to locate the united states on a map.
Keep them scared and stupid. Gold bless america.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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I have had to make the decision whether to take a life, it is a terrible responsibilty, but sometimes the best choice is to do so.
Yes, Kstriya class [warrior] has this responsibility and the license to act it out.
And; I've seen yo've lost the Jody's evil twin thing?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 04:49pm PT
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Hi Jeff
While I don't accept either the facts of your rebuttal of my points, nor your interpretation, I thank you for taking the time.
I'm sorry I can't fully reciprocate. Just as an example, let me rebut your point #1. You say:
"1) No WMD/Premptive war - Iraq had WMD in the past, Iraq claimed to currently pocess WMD, Intel. gave conflicting evidence, most logical people would err on the side of believing that they still had some WMD. Perhaps some was transferred to Syria, current Intel. says Syria does have WMD. When dealing with WMD it is much better to act first rather than suffer huge losses waiting for confirmation."
So even though they let us totally defeat them the first time without them using WMDs, which they did have at the time, suddenly they were an immediate threat in 1993?
I don't know whether you were sold this crock or are selling it but the gig is up on it. Read the secret Downing Street memo. a highest level document leaked to the British press that shows that the war was based on lies and that it was known from the beginning that Saddam wasn't a real threat. Some excepts from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
"C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."
and
"The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss [the timing of the war] with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran."
It is to the Dark political credit of the adminstration that they have consolidated power to the extent that this information wasn't even widely reporrted in the US, much less investigated by congress.
But let's say that all your rebuttal points are true. It still seems that the message is that the US amorally persues it's "interests" no matter who gets kille and that the message is "Do what we say, not what we do" I would hope for more. It implies that the ony way for a country to be safe from the US intervention is to have enough WMDs to be a real threat to us. When the Pakistani Dictator falls, and Pakistan swings to radical Islam, do we immediately strike or do they have enough WMDs already get off the hook. I hear we're selling them F-16s, but I guess they can't fly this far.
Peace
karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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May 24, 2005 - 01:36pm PT
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How is electing a Republican (or a Democrat) going to affect whether the Indian Hindus and the Paki Muslims have a nuclear "duke out" over a the Vale of Kashmir? Sounds as though there's going to be big trouble in that region of the world no matter what happens politically in the US.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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May 24, 2005 - 01:58pm PT
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"6) The US are Greedy Imperialists - Is that why we have returned the Panama canal, air bases in the Phillapines, Grenada and the various other nations our military has defeated during the past century. Imperialst nations attempt to maintain control for centuries, i.e. Britain. "
Just wnted to hop in on this one since it is quick. We retruned the Panama canal because it is largely obsolete. A small percentage of our military vessels can fit through it and I don't know the percentage of commercial vessels but I'm sure it has dwindled. We gave up those bases but 2 or 3 have sprouted in other countries that had more economic and military relevance for us. If you can't see that you simply aren't paying attention...or are simply paying attention to the wrong things which is more what I suspect.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 24, 2005 - 03:27pm PT
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There might also be an argument about the current strageic importance of US military bases in Grenada, but that argument, like so many others, is lost upon guys like fratty, who seek only to bolster their own jingo-istic outlook on global politics.
India and Pakistan aren't going to have a nook-ya-lear war anymore sooner than we are going to close the border w/ Mexico, in either case the costs outweigh the gains.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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May 24, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
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fattrad imperialism has evolved with the times. it is too blatant for us to be completely invading other countries and taking them over as we have see with Iraq. It is much easier to establish military bases, extend a sphere of influence and support governments that support our policies. Why take over a country by force to get at resources or establish a base when you can give some aid, prop up a leader (who may be elected or not, who really cares?) and coerce them into letting you get the resource that way? We have for decades not only supported dictatorships but actually supported the overthrow of democratically elected leaders so that we can continue with our own agenda. If you can't see how that conflicts with core democratic values....
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dirtbag
climber
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May 24, 2005 - 06:13pm PT
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"There have been 1,822 coalition troop deaths, 1,643 Americans, 88 Britons, 10 Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 21 Italians, one Kazakh, one Latvian, 17 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of May 24, 2005."
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Fattrad, try explaining with a straight face to the families of the service people killed in Iraq your far-fetched, neo-con wet dreams about imperialism and how Bush's lies about WMD are justifiable.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 25, 2005 - 10:01am PT
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Not to mention all of the dead Iraqis
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 10:19am PT
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Dead Muslims don't matter.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 25, 2005 - 11:20am PT
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to you? or are you projecting here?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 12:19pm PT
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Just saying what politically astute right-wingers might not say, but are really thinking.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 01:13pm PT
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"Why not insist on their acceptance of our constitution, an foundation that respects all religions might bring peace to the region."
Cuz it won't work cuz they hate and mistrust us cuz we've screwed them in the past.
"Hello, we're with the United States Government, and we're here to help."
Uh-huh.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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May 25, 2005 - 01:32pm PT
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That sounds like a pretty hard project to accomplish: Occupy the Middle East and force them to change their religion. I don't see that happening unless the US occupies the whole region with 2 million troops, who then would inter-marry with the local girls (the Alexander the Great method). Doesn't anyone in the State Department realize the East has been hating the West for 6000 years?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 25, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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i have decided to try to be more accepting of the varied political views of other people..
I agree with your comments in the above post. We have done a poor in the past of selecting/supporting leaders in other nations. I'm afraid that in the middle east, only full occupation of several states will moderate their religious extremeism. A program of building more schools and mosques would need to occur, concurrently a re-write of school textbooks would take place. Why not insist on their acceptance of our constitution, a foundation that respects all religions might bring peace to the region.
ok, i give up!
idiot!
idiot, idiot, IDIOT!
I'm afraid that in the middle east, only full occupation of several states will moderate their religious extremeism.
yes, that will "moderate" their populations, and they wil greet us with flowers in the street, when we get there!
IDIOT!!!
A program of building more schools and mosques would need to occur, concurrently a re-write of school textbooks would take place.
yes, they would love to ave us rewrite their textbooks, particularly while we are occupying their countries! wouldn't you love to have that happen in your country? of course yu would, who wouldn't?
IDIOT!!!
Why not insist on their acceptance of our constitution, a foundation that respects all religions might bring peace to the region.
yes of course, we will occupy them and force our ideas upon their kids and then force our form of government upon them... and that will lead to the moderation of the radical elements in their populations, because, eventually that wil bring them nascar races and cheeseburgers, so they will become politically apathetic and generally obese and unhealthy too!
you really are an idiot.
so when are we going to your IDIOT support group meeting?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 01:44pm PT
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"so when are we going to your IDIOT support group meeting? "
Isn't that what the SuperTopo forum is?
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 25, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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I think we've been trying to keep this particular thread from becoming an idiot support group (in style of "what rope length works best? need help! thanks!")
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 25, 2005 - 02:21pm PT
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gee, fattrad, we better do it fast before these folks develop sufficient nuclear capabilities and delivery systems...
now, the Chinese: we've been concerned about them for millenia too. can't nuke'm though, can we?
then, the russians are getting out of hand with their roll backs of democracy, what now?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 25, 2005 - 04:08pm PT
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idiot-
maybe the military occupation of their land (combined w/ the insults and humiliation we have all read about, and which are no doubt going to occurr in a wartime environment) is not the ONLY option, in terms of changing their perception, and "moderating their hate" (what about YOUR hate?)
i just LOVE how you describe your plan of occupation, dominance, and forced compliance w/ our ideas and political systems: "I'd rather build them mosques"
if only you were young enough (and brave enough) to join up...
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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May 25, 2005 - 05:16pm PT
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"China and Russia are good partners now and will only improve in the future ( Putin has overreacted to the asset thefts of the Yeltsin years and China is now on the path of uncontrollable capitalism/democracy), we do not have thousands of years of hatred with them."
I've lived in both Russia and China for years.
I'm afraid that you greatly oversimplify those countries' current and potential relationships w/ the US.
My main concern is that the line between looking for a diplomatic solution and "coming out swinging" gets awfully blurry with the progression of the other side's ability to retaliate.
Are "the powers that be" able to make those crucial distinctions?
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