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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:22am PT
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LEB - "No doubt his supporters will explain it away - I would expect nothing else from them - trivial details."
Give me a fuking break! You are the God damned fuking queen of 'explain it away'.
You will probably never read this, but here:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html
I would cut and paste it in but it not being a partisan opinion piece it's a bit long on facts and quite thorough. Of course, thorough analysis is not your strong suit.
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Pennsylenvy
Big Wall climber
Cox's Balls, AZ
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:28am PT
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Dirtbag,
you better watch out posting that mitigating crap. LEB's brain might just go poof......
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:32am PT
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Again?
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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Brain?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:07am PT
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Everybody who throws out the label "terrorist" or even "domestic terrorist" should re-read their history books on the founding fathers and the revolutionary war.
The United States of America birthed a federalist union, one that ORIGINALLY SUPPORTED "DOMESTIC TERRORISM" as a way to keep the government (Legislative) powers in check, if AND when the Supreme Court and Congress failed to do so.
DOMESTIC TERRORISM IS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT (2nd amendment, the "gun" one)
It's an effed up concept if one doesn't understand intent, and why/how it allowed the citizens of this country their freedom AGAINST government.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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Pennsylenvy, I sure hope so. :-)
Tomcat, let me help you out here since you are struggling.
You said:
"Are you denying Obama was connected to ACORN dirt?"
Helpful hint #1, Tomcat--I did not deny anything.
You also said:
"Do you think that might be because a lot of the evidence has surfaced since 2006,or is that too rational an approach for you? "
Helpful hint #2, Tomcat--The 90s, when Obama was involved with ACORN activities, are much farther away from 2008, which is when they've gotten into trouble, than 2006,. So if you want to play the distance in time game, Obama's association was much longer ago.
And finally, if you want to play guilt by association games for the candidates, we could have fun all day long without really getting to what they did or didn't do.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:16am PT
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Dirt,you are the one who posted the picture of McCain at a meeting with them,implying association.Meeting with a group,versus being a member,is quite different where I come from.
Struggle on Dirt.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:20am PT
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Dirtbag, less than a year ago Obama said ACORN (and others) would be a significant part of his campaign. Watch this video, dude!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU
Obama's own words, not a mere 'association'.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:23am PT
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Tomcat,
I don't give a rat's ass about ACORN-Obama, nor do I care if McCain spoke before them in 2006.
But you and other righties apparently are quite worked up about it. So why is McCain's campaign hammering ACORN when he spoke before them as late as 2006, long after Obama was involved?
Here's helpful hint #3--it's called HYPOCRISY. And that was the point of bringing up McCain.
So, I expect you and others to condemn McCain's 2006 involvement in an organization that perpetrates voter fraud.
Guilt by association is all that McCain has left to try to win, apparently.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Wow - Minorities and people under 25 are almost all supporting a particular party? Got any stats to back up that assertion?
The concept of having outreach programs to get people to register is pretty simple. Many people simply do not realize that there is a cut off date to register, nor do they know what that date is. On top of that, finding out locations to register is an effort unto itself.
Young people do tend to move from their parents homes during the ages of 18-25 and often they move out of that voting district. Poor people also tend to move, like everyone else, and may not have the same resources to research their voting locations. For most of us, we can search online during working hours. PAID to look it up! Poor people are much less likely to have access to internet at home. During working hours, they're less likley to have jobs that afford them the perks that people earning higher wages have - like being able to use company time for personal efforts.
People often want to vote but get to the polls unaware of the efforts needed to allow them access. I'll tell you this: I USED to get updates by mail about where my voting location is and other stuff. Since 2000 - I haven't received ONE piece of literature on it. I can only hope my voting location hasn't changed.
How on earth anyone would be against outreach programs helping people to register is beyond me. It stinks.
About prison registration:
"In Alabama, nearly 250,000 people have been stripped of their right to vote due to a felony conviction. But, in a 2006 court ruling which was the result of a lawsuit by Ryan Haygood of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, a judge found that only those persons convicted of felonies of "moral turpitude" lose their right to vote. The judge found that certain felonies -- such as drug possession -- do not constitute crimes of moral turpitude and, therefore, individuals convicted of those crimes do not lose their voting rights, even during incarceration."
From the website: http://www.alternet.org/democracy/99779/fighting_for_the_rights_of_voters_behind_bars_/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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McCain has distanced himself from an obviously corrupted group since his immigration speech that was sponsered by them.
I wonder if Obama will too?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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Acorn is a Mickey Mouse outfit.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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"How on earth anyone would be against outreach programs helping people to register is beyond me. It stinks."
What stinks, Happie, is that these people in ACORN are fraudulently registering people multiple times.
Just because some groups claims to be an 'outreach' or 'community organizer' doesn't give them a green-light to commit fraud and potential crimes.
edit: As TGT points out, even Mickey Mouse can register through ACORN. Yeah!!!!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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Bluey, it kind of looks like the State of Florida is responsible for Mickey Mouse being on their registration.
But they prolly don't mind HIM on the registrar, good for tourism, hehe.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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The default position of precinct officers is to throw out questionable ballots. There are a number of reasons why this might be done, including an odd name, incorrect address, etc. The process is imperfect but almost certainly there are more legit voters whose ballots are not counted than bogus ones that get through.
It would be interesting to know how many votes are lost due to caging and other illegal tactics vs. ballots tallied from illegaly registered voters. Does it more or less wash out? It may be such a comparison has been documented but I haven't yet found it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:00pm PT
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Acorn is not corrupt nor guilty of voter fraud. This is a Repub dirty tricks smear and disinformation scheme. Throughout their existence they have been repeatedly investigated for reasons of partisan politics. And in the bright light of day they have been repeatedly cleared of wrong doing. They will be cleared in this case also. It was Acorn it'self that tagged, bundled and reported these fishy forms to the election officials. Read the whole story find out the truth. Acorn has been an invaluabe asset to the promotion of democracy in the US for years. That is why even McSameShame spoke with them. It is at best disingenious of the current naysayers to flaunt this false assusation against only one canidate. It has no more relevance than the bogusly trumped up Ayers disinformation campaign.
Desperate republicans will attack and destroy anyone for political gain at the expense of truth and integrity. Just as they did to one of their own.Remember McCain in 2000. Not to mention Max McClellan and a few other mangled American war heros. Sacrificed to corrupt political ambitions.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2008 - 12:07pm PT
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There has always been voter fraud to one degree or another in the US. In the past it's been through local machines or precinct corruption. Both parties have had this problem. This is the first time an organization--Acorn--has spread voter corruption across the entire nation. The FBI and state agencies are focusing in on Acorn all across the country. Acorn, in the past, has been accused, found guilty and fined for fraud.
This issue is now spreading with more and more attention given it. Acorn finally overreached. Face it, even Obama is rapidly distancing himself from Acorn; although, that will be very difficult since they've been kissin' cousins for years.
Lois is correct. I find it amusing how some of you go at her personally instead of dealing with the issues point by point
I don't always agree with her, but I read her posts carefully because she's thoughtful, reasoned, coherent and she writes well. Something many of you aren't/don't. You attack instead of reply in a less than mature manner. I've wondered about this attitude of her opponents for quite a bit and have come to two conclusions: she's an outsider and an intelligent female that makes some of you squirm.
I don't know how all of the Acorn issue will effect the campaign; however, it won't help Obama and may do him damage. I have, however, come to a final impression: Obama is nothing more than a corrupt and typical Chicago machine pol. He's dirty to the core. He may well win the coming election; and, if he does, I can't predict the ultimate outcome. It's impossible to know how an individual, based on past history, will perform as President of the US. I know my US history quite well. I will say, though, it is very troubling to have a political hack like Obama running for president. If he wins the election, you better keep all fingers crossed and hope like hell for the best. The next president is going to have not just a full plate of serious problems but an entire banquet to deal with.
In my entire adult/voting experience, I've never been presented with such a disturbing and cockeyed mess. It's too bad the parties can't just start the whole process over and come up with some reasonably decent candidates.
I know, I'll go live with Locker for awhile until I can determine if the nation will hold together. He's so far in the wilderness, it might as well be OZ.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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I've posted this several times but clearly it is not getting through.
Regardless of the allegations against ACORN and their merits these are the actual facts about Obama's connection to Acorn:
1. He was NEVER a community organizer for them.
2. He provided a total of 2 hours of training for them.
3. He represented them as an outside attorney in a legal case alongside the US Justice Department forcing the State of Illinois to enforce voter access laws.
If you actually read the articles associating him with ACORN (and they are all op-ed columns) they all focus on the allegations against ACORN and then very sneakily associate Obama with them with no details and usually not much more than a brief mention.
If you want to be a tool of the Republican party then just close your eyes and keep on believing. If you are the informed person that I'm sure you think you are, you'll do a little research and actually find objectively reported articles.
LEB- Please post some evidence to support your claim of Obama's contemptuous view of the military. Oh wait I forgot, you're just a huge stinkin troll.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Lois,
For Chirst sake, quit pretending you have some kind of special insight into "common folks." Polls show Obama with a 7 point lead. It looks to me like a lot of common folks don't agree with you.
And frankly, it's a rather patronizing term to use.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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"Non-partisan appointed officials"
Well, we have an elections act with regulations and finance to go with it. The Chief Electoral Officer is appointed by a multi-partisan committee of Parliament. There is consensus in the public and the chattering classes that it is essential that all those who are eligible have the opportunity to vote. Any real hanky-panky with respect to registration or voting would be condemned across the country. The CEO is given sufficient resources to do a good job.
Political parties are allowed an oversight role, but not permitted to be active in registering voters - though they do what they can to encourage their supporters to get out and vote, and help them. (I'm expecting three calls any time now - no fun being an independent.)
For rare serious issues, usually a recount, there is a judicial process, open to the public and news media.
Canadians are utterly mystified by the way quite routine public servants are elected on a partisan basis in the U.S. We just appoint them, give them a clearly defined job, and keep them on a respectably tight leash.
Considering how much publicity the work of ACORN is getting, I doubt they could illegally have a smoke outside the office without it being written up. The real issue is that your 'system' is set up to foster partisanship at all levels, often unnecessarily.
I doubt that ACORN has done anything substantive wrong, and no doubt the voter-denial efforts of the Republicans and their fellow-travellers are worse. In terms of ACORN, the Republicans are simply trying to prevent poor, brown, and black people from voting - based on their prejudice that such people would mostly vote Democrat. Of course, if you can manipulate the voting software, as can the Republicans, or have the backing of the Supreme Court for your manipulations, then ...
LEB's reference to Kipling's fine poem "Tommy" is apposite - the poem precisely summarizes the attitude of the current administration (the Republican elite) to the ordinary soldier. Mere servants, sent to do a dirty job.
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