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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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Wow look. Another opinion piece about Acorn and Obama. Still no actual journalism though. That simply MUST be because all journalists are liberals and totally in the tank for Obama.
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php
"A goldfish's lifetime ago, Sen. John McCain was happy to accept the honors and acclamation of the Service Employees International Union, People for the American Way, UNITE HERE -- and ACORN. Here he is, on Feb. 20, 2006, telling immigration rights activists at a rally in Miami that they "are what makes America special." ACORN co-sponsored the rally, and its volunteers surround McCain, and while there's no evidence that McCain ever formally teamed with the group, the video serves as a reminder that he did not mind being associated with them when the politics of the moment were different."
BONUS MATERIAL: Video footage of John McCain saying these things.
BTW Woody I'm still waiting for you to comment in the Obama hate threads about how McCain supporters only have bad things to say about Obama and no good things to say about McCain.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:00am PT
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Funny that the right wing was so silent on voter fraud when districts with few hundred voters using electronic machines managed to submit thousands of Bush votes.
I think voter fraud should be aggressively punished in all its forms. That said
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/10
The Truth About ACORN's Voter Registration Drive
by Bertha Lewis and Steve Kest
Election Day is less than a month away, and our efforts to make sure that low-income and minority voters have a voice and vote on November 4th are in full swing. Unfortunately, just as we've seen in previous election cycles, the more success we have in empowering these voters, the more attacks we have to fend off from partisan forces making unfounded accusations to disparage our work and help maintain the status quo of an unbalanced electorate. We want to take this opportunity to separate the facts of our successes from the falsehoods of our attackers.
On Monday, October 6, as voter registration deadlines passed in most states, ACORN completed the largest, most successful nonpartisan voter registration drive in history. In partnership with the nonpartisan organization Project Vote, we helped register over 1.3 million low-income, minority, and young voters in a total of 21 states. Highlights of this success include:
We collected over 151,000 registrations in Florida, 153,000 in Pennsylvania, 215,000 in Michigan, and nearly 250,000 in Ohio.
An estimated 60-70 percent of our applicants are people of color.
At least HALF of all are registrations are from young people between 18-29.
We are proud of this unprecedented success, and grateful to everyone who supported us in this massive effort, from our funders and partners to the literally thousands of hardworking individuals across the country who dedicated themselves to the cause and conducted the difficult work of registering 1.3 million Americans, one voter at a time.
And this work is far from over: now begins our effort mobilize these new voters around local and national issues, getting them to the polls and helping to channel their commitment and conviction into an ongoing movement for change in our communities.
As The Nation pointed out recently, ACORN's success in registering millions of low-income and minority voters has made it "something of a right-wing bogeyman." Though ACORN believes that the right to vote is not, and should never be, a partisan issue, attacks from groups threatened by our historic success continue to come, motivated by partisan politics and often perpetuated by the media without full investigation of the facts. As a result, there have been a few recent stories about investigations of former ACORN workers for turning in incomplete, erroneous, or fraudulent voter registration applications. Predictably, partisan forces have tried to use these isolated incidents to incite fear of the "bogeyman" of "widespread voter fraud." But we want to take this opportunity to set the record straight and tell you a few facts to show how these incidents really exemplify everything that ACORN is doing right:
Fact: ACORN has implemented the most sophisticated quality-control system in the voter engagement field, but in almost every state we are required to turn in ALL completed applications, even the ones we know to be problematic.
Fact: ACORN flags incomplete, problem, or suspicious cards when we turn them in, but these warnings are often ignored by election officials. Often these same officials then come back weeks or months later and accuse us of deliberately turning in phony cards.
Fact: Our canvassers are paid by the hour, not by the card, so there is NO incentive for them to falsify cards. ACORN has a zero-tolerance policy for deliberately falsifying registrations, and in the relatively rare cases where our internal quality controls have identified this happening we have fired the workers involved and turned them in to election officials and law-enforcement.
Fact: No charges have ever been brought against ACORN itself. Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes.
Fact: Voter fraud by individuals is extremely rare, and incredibly difficult. There has never been a single proven case of anyone, anywhere, casting an illegal vote as a result of a phony voter registration. Even if someone wanted to influence the election this way, it would not work.
Fact: Most election officials have recognized ACORN's good work and praised our quality control systems. Even in the cities where election officials have complained about ACORN, the applications in question represent less than 1% of the thousands and thousands of registrations ACORN has collected.
Fact: Our accusers not only fail to provide any evidence, they fail to suggest a motive: there is virtually no chance anyone would be able to vote fraudulently, so there is no reason to deliberately submit phony registrations. ACORN is committed to ensuring that the greatest possible numbers of people are registered and allowed to vote, so there is also NO incentive to "disrupt the system" with phony cards.
Fact: Similar accusations were made, and attacks launched, against ACORN and other voter registration organizations in 2004 and 2006. These attacks were not only groundless, they have since been exposed as part of the U.S. Attorneygate scandal and revealed to be part of a systematic partisan agenda of voter suppression.
These are the facts, and the truth is that a relatively small group of political operatives are trying to orchestrate hysteria about "voter fraud" and manufacture public outrage that they can use to further suppress the votes of millions of low-income and minority Americans.
These tactics are nothing new, and history has shown that they will come to nothing. We'll continue to weather the storm, as we've done for years, and we'll continue to share the truth about our work and express pride about our accomplishments.
Most importantly, we want to assure you that this good work continues, unabated and undeterred. ACORN will not be intimidated, we will not be provoked, and in this important moment in history we will not allow anyone to distract us from these vital efforts to empower our constituencies and our communities to speak for themselves. If the partisan political machines are afraid of low-income and minority voters, they're going to have to do a lot better than coming after ACORN.
After all, there are now at least 1.3 million more of them, and they will not be silenced. They're taking an interest, and taking a stand, and they'll be taking their concerns to the voting booth in November.
And ACORN will be here, to make sure that the voices of these Americans are heard, on Election Day and for every day to come.
Bertha Lewis is a senior organizer for ACORN. Steve Kest is ACORN's Executive Director. ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, is the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families, working together for social justice and stronger communities.
++=
Personally, I wonder if this Acorn whining is just to get us so we won't riot when the real voter fraud happens in a few weeks. Will democrats wait 10 hours to vote again in some states while in GOP areas people just waltz in?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:08am PT
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Perhaps you should consider doing things as we do here. Non-partisan appointed officials are in charge of enumerating and registering voters, and conducting the vote. Representatives of all parties can oversee the process. Works just fine. In the rare case of a contested election, there is a judicial recount.
I'll vote later today and report back on how it went.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:10am PT
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"Non-partisan appointed officials"
How to you find non partisan officials and who appoints them?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:23am PT
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http://blackboxvoting.org/
This site is concerned with hinky voting of all sorts. Good to check em out.
peace
Karl
Here's a bit more
Velvet Revolution today issued a press release calling for Republican candidate John McCain to fire computer expert Michael Connell from his campaign for covering up alleged election manipulations of Karl Rove and others. Mr. Connell, the GOP’s top computer expert, was subpoenaed based on a September 19th court order to testify under oath in an Ohio federal lawsuit looking into serious allegations that Mr. Rove has directed a strategy to illegally manipulate elections through the use of computer technology. Rather than cooperate in the investigation, Mr. Connell hired attorneys close to the Bush/Cheney Administration and refused to appear for the deposition arguing client (GOP) confidentiality. Those attorneys have said that they will do everything possible to keep Mr. Connell from testifying before the November general election.
Mr. Connell’s refusal to comply with a federal subpoena looking into credible evidence that the upcoming presidential election will be manipulated is at odds with John McCain’s promise to run a clean campaign. Another GOP cyber security expert, Stephen Spoonamore, has stated that Mr. Connell has vast experience and knowledge of the GOP computer networks at issue in the federal lawsuit.Mr. Connell has admitted to Mr. Spoonamore that in his zeal to 'save the unborn' he may have helped others who have compromised elections.”
Cliff Arnebeck, the Ohio election attorney who issued the subpoena, said Friday that he is aggressively moving to enforce the subpoena. “Mr. Connell has information about how the votes are tabulated in key states in the upcoming election. In order to ensure that the election is fair and accurate, Mr. Connell needs to testify under oath and pursuant to a lawful subpoena about how these votes are tabulated, whether the tabulation will be compromised and whether anyone has directed him to compromise those tabulations.”
According to federal filings, Mr. Connell is working for John McCain to help him win the election. VR believes that until Mr. Connell testifies under oath about his apparent knowledge of election manipulations, he should not be working for Mr. McCain. If he does, the McCain campaign will appear to be in league with Mr. Connell to cover up criminal conduct and engaging in election tampering. This will call into question the results of the November election and again cast a shadow over our election process.
What does another GOP computer expect say about mcConnell under oath?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Deposition-by-Spoonamore-A-by-Stephen-Spoonamore-080919-58.html
"..IN REGARD to Mr. Mike Connell.
Mr. Connell and I share a mutual interest in democracy building, freedom of speech and religion worldwide. We have mutually participated in activity to forward this goal. At a meeting in London last year, and again at a Lunch in Washington, DC, Mike and I briefly discussed voting security. While he has not admitted to wrongdoing, and in my opinion he is not involved in voting theft, Mike clearly agrees that the electronic voting systems in the US are not secure. He further made a statement that he is afraid that some of the more ruthless partisans of the GOP, may have exploited systems he in part worked on for this purpose.
Mr. Connell builds front end applications, user interfaces and web sites. Knowing his team and their skills, I find it unlikely they would be the vote thieves directly. I believe however he knows who is doing that work, and has likely turned a blind eye to this activity. Mr. Connell is a devout Catholic. He has admitted to me that in his zeal to 'save the unborn' he may have helped others who have compromised elections. He was clearly uncomfortable when I asked directly about Ohio 2004. .."
Sorry to post all this stuff but voter fraud pisses me off and I think the accusations trying to pin it on the Dems is 90% distraction from the real crimes planned.
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:30am PT
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Hey look. Another LEB troll post. Tell us about your cat again.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:50am PT
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It's great to read what the media says about voter fraud but I'm still wondering what I should do with this letter I got from one of the candidates suggesting I vote twice. He sent it to my present address reminding me that I am still a registered voter in my previous state if I should want to cast an absentee ballot. I thought of casting that vote against him just for sending me that crap but it's still illegal. Meanwhile the same senator's party recently registered all of the inmates at my local jail to vote. A real public service that. It's just heartwarming to see how much they care.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 04:00am PT
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Yes LEB that's the good stuff. I realize it's hard for you to think that someone "pays attention" and "reads the news" and when they don't have actual facts and info they "use the google" and "read more articles."
I get the impression from reading your posts that you are either:
A. A troll robot programmed to post slight variations of the same posts repeatedly on different (or even the same) threads based on their title
or
B. A terrible, terrible troll.
I'm having a hard time believing that someone can code a trolling robot that is as bad as you, so I'm going with option B.
So tell me, troll, who exactly do I consult? I mean often my posts follow yours by no more than one or two minutes. What Great Committee am I using as my posting oracle and how do they manage answers at 1 or 2 in the morning with such efficiency?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 04:05am PT
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"Seems to me that Obama has a string of seedy associates. If it is not ACORN then it is William Ayers (terrorism anyone?)"
LEB, do some research on the whole Ayers thing will ya? The guy was named by the city of Chicago "Citizen of the year in 1997" and has worked with MANY local republican officials and Chicago Republicans nor Chicago Democrats have never made an issue of it before. The "terrorism" was when Obama was 8.
Meanwhile McCain was bombing civilians in Hanoi while we killed 2-3 million people in a country that never posed ANY threat to us, that NEVER attacked us, and in a war that was basically the aftermath of French Colonialism in Indochina (Vietnam)
So many crimes were committed in that war the Henry Kissinger (whom Palin recently associated with) is a wanted man in certain countries as a war criminal.
All the while McCain's involvement with Keating was actually DURING the period when Keating was involved in the very same kind of crimes that recently brought down our whole financial system and 23000 people were defrauded of their investments.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95442902
"..Regardless of his background, it was never a problem for anyone — including Republicans and Chicago's most powerful business leaders — to work with Ayers on Chicago's public schools. In fact, Ayers is widely respected in the field of urban education.
"It was never a concern by any of us in the Chicago school reform movement that he had led a fugitive life years earlier," said former Illinois state Republican Rep. Diana Nelson, who worked with both Obama and Ayers over the years. "It's ridiculous. There is no reason at all to smear Barack Obama with this association. It's nonsensical, and it just makes me crazy. It's so silly."
Nelson says her fellow Republicans "might snort when they hear the name Bill Ayers, because they know he comes from a wealthy family, they know he became a radical activist early in his life ... but beyond just snorting, I don't think anyone gives it another thought."
"I don't remember ever hearing anyone raise concerns or questions or concerns about [Ayers'] background," says Anne Hallett, who has worked closely with Ayers on the Annenberg Challenge grant and with Obama on education and other community and legislative matters. "And that included everybody I was engaged with," including prominent Republicans, and corporate and civic leaders in Chicago, Hallett adds..."
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 14, 2008 - 04:12am PT
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Woody, there is a reason why that link you provided is to the OPINION page. It's all opinion and emotion with very few facts.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 14, 2008 - 04:29am PT
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LEB - It's called "Democracy behind bars" go figure.
So tired of all the crap. Both Candidates should be held accountable for who they chose to associate with. Doesn't matter if the guy was a terrorist when I was 8 if he didn't do the time for doing his admitted crime and he is unrepentant. Look, were not talking about someone who was caught drunk driving or something. The guy and his entire family are anti Americans. It is completely relevant that their association with a candidate for President of the United States should be questioned. Has Obama been to his home? Did Obama endorse his book? Etc. Politicians are crooked, money hungry slaves to bureaucracy. Any of the foul beasts willing to deal with a turd like Ayers should be discredited. Do we or Do we not have the right to peaceful demonstration in this country. We are lucky to have a means in which to enact change. Terrorism is a cowardly display of petty violence. What is the statute of limitation on attempting to kill innocent people anyway?
Oh yeah and Journalism 2000's = Opinion.
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dogtown
climber
Where I once was,I think?
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Oct 14, 2008 - 05:02am PT
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Acorn is the paramilitary wing of the sub prime melt down.
More commonly known as Obama brown shirts.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 14, 2008 - 05:28am PT
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ACORN responds. It should be easy for Faux News and the others to check whether they are telling the truth or not.
ACORN Statement: Nevada Secretary of State 'Stunt' Serves No Useful Purpose
Last update: 8:56 p.m. EDT Oct. 7, 2008
WASHINGTON, Oct 07, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- On Oct. 7, ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) interim Chief Organizer Bertha Lewis issued the following statement in response to the raid of ACORN's office in Las Vegas:
"Over the past year, ACORN has worked hard to help over 80,000 people in Clark County register to vote. As part of our nonpartisan voter registration program, we have reviewed all the applications submitted by our canvassers. When we have identified suspicious applications, we have separated them out and flagged them for election officials. We have zero tolerance for fraudulent registrations. We immediately dismiss employees we suspect of submitting fraudulent registrations.
For the past 10 months, any time ACORN has identified a potentially fraudulent application, we turn that application into election officials separately and offer to provide election officials with the information they would need to pursue an investigation or prosecution of the individual.
Election officials routinely ignored this information and failed to act. In early July, ACORN asked to meet with election officials to express our concerns that they were not acting on information ACORN had presented to them. ACORN met with Clark County elections officials and a representative of the Secretary of State on July 17th. ACORN pleaded with them to take our concerns about fraudulent applications seriously. One week later, elections officials asked us to provide them with a second copy of what we had previously provided to them. ACORN responded by giving election officials copies of 46 "problem application packages," which involved 33 former canvassers.
On September 23, ACORN had received a subpoena dated September 19th requesting information on 15 employees, all of whom had been included in the packages we had previously submitted to election officials. ACORN provided our personnel records on these 15 employees on September 29.
Today's raid by the Secretary of State's Office is a stunt that serves no useful purpose other than discredit our work registering Nevadans and distracting us from the important work ahead of getting every eligible voter to the polls."
ACORN is the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families, with over 400,000 member families across the country. Since 1970, *ACORN* has taken action and won victories on such issues as better housing, living wages for low-wage workers, more investment in our communities, and better public schools.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:54am PT
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OK so,now I know what a "Community Organizer" is.
I like the part where it's "non- partisan",but they only solicit minorities and people under 25.They could give a sh#t about anyone else.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 09:26am PT
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Do you think that might be because a lot of the evidence has surfaced since 2006,or is that too rational an approach for you?
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Chris2
Trad climber
The Gunks to Joshua Tree
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Oct 14, 2008 - 09:30am PT
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"This may well be the largest organized voter fraud effort in our history."
Absurd accusation considering the antics in Florida 2000.
LEB, in Flordia 2000 there was something called the Voter Purge List created by the Secretary of States office. It was supposed to contain the names of convicted felons to keep them from voting. The list was not “complete enough”, so names were added. Individuals who’s names were spelled similar to the Felons on the list were added.
It was estimated that 20,000 individual were turned away from the polls because of this list, however there is no factual information to base this on. However in one county, of its 693 purged voters only 35 were convicted felons.
“It is not who you vote for, it is who counts the votes.”
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 09:30am PT
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Oh yeah, 2006 Tomcat. That was how many years after Obama was a community organizer?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 09:37am PT
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Are you denying Obama was connected to ACORN dirt? Are we going to pretend that soliciting only low income minorities and the young is non-partisan?
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:22am PT
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LEB - "No doubt his supporters will explain it away - I would expect nothing else from them - trivial details."
Give me a fuking break! You are the God damned fuking queen of 'explain it away'.
You will probably never read this, but here:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html
I would cut and paste it in but it not being a partisan opinion piece it's a bit long on facts and quite thorough. Of course, thorough analysis is not your strong suit.
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Pennsylenvy
Big Wall climber
Cox's Balls, AZ
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:28am PT
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Dirtbag,
you better watch out posting that mitigating crap. LEB's brain might just go poof......
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:32am PT
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Again?
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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Brain?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:07am PT
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Everybody who throws out the label "terrorist" or even "domestic terrorist" should re-read their history books on the founding fathers and the revolutionary war.
The United States of America birthed a federalist union, one that ORIGINALLY SUPPORTED "DOMESTIC TERRORISM" as a way to keep the government (Legislative) powers in check, if AND when the Supreme Court and Congress failed to do so.
DOMESTIC TERRORISM IS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT (2nd amendment, the "gun" one)
It's an effed up concept if one doesn't understand intent, and why/how it allowed the citizens of this country their freedom AGAINST government.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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Pennsylenvy, I sure hope so. :-)
Tomcat, let me help you out here since you are struggling.
You said:
"Are you denying Obama was connected to ACORN dirt?"
Helpful hint #1, Tomcat--I did not deny anything.
You also said:
"Do you think that might be because a lot of the evidence has surfaced since 2006,or is that too rational an approach for you? "
Helpful hint #2, Tomcat--The 90s, when Obama was involved with ACORN activities, are much farther away from 2008, which is when they've gotten into trouble, than 2006,. So if you want to play the distance in time game, Obama's association was much longer ago.
And finally, if you want to play guilt by association games for the candidates, we could have fun all day long without really getting to what they did or didn't do.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:16am PT
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Dirt,you are the one who posted the picture of McCain at a meeting with them,implying association.Meeting with a group,versus being a member,is quite different where I come from.
Struggle on Dirt.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:20am PT
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Dirtbag, less than a year ago Obama said ACORN (and others) would be a significant part of his campaign. Watch this video, dude!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU
Obama's own words, not a mere 'association'.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:23am PT
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Tomcat,
I don't give a rat's ass about ACORN-Obama, nor do I care if McCain spoke before them in 2006.
But you and other righties apparently are quite worked up about it. So why is McCain's campaign hammering ACORN when he spoke before them as late as 2006, long after Obama was involved?
Here's helpful hint #3--it's called HYPOCRISY. And that was the point of bringing up McCain.
So, I expect you and others to condemn McCain's 2006 involvement in an organization that perpetrates voter fraud.
Guilt by association is all that McCain has left to try to win, apparently.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Wow - Minorities and people under 25 are almost all supporting a particular party? Got any stats to back up that assertion?
The concept of having outreach programs to get people to register is pretty simple. Many people simply do not realize that there is a cut off date to register, nor do they know what that date is. On top of that, finding out locations to register is an effort unto itself.
Young people do tend to move from their parents homes during the ages of 18-25 and often they move out of that voting district. Poor people also tend to move, like everyone else, and may not have the same resources to research their voting locations. For most of us, we can search online during working hours. PAID to look it up! Poor people are much less likely to have access to internet at home. During working hours, they're less likley to have jobs that afford them the perks that people earning higher wages have - like being able to use company time for personal efforts.
People often want to vote but get to the polls unaware of the efforts needed to allow them access. I'll tell you this: I USED to get updates by mail about where my voting location is and other stuff. Since 2000 - I haven't received ONE piece of literature on it. I can only hope my voting location hasn't changed.
How on earth anyone would be against outreach programs helping people to register is beyond me. It stinks.
About prison registration:
"In Alabama, nearly 250,000 people have been stripped of their right to vote due to a felony conviction. But, in a 2006 court ruling which was the result of a lawsuit by Ryan Haygood of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, a judge found that only those persons convicted of felonies of "moral turpitude" lose their right to vote. The judge found that certain felonies -- such as drug possession -- do not constitute crimes of moral turpitude and, therefore, individuals convicted of those crimes do not lose their voting rights, even during incarceration."
From the website: http://www.alternet.org/democracy/99779/fighting_for_the_rights_of_voters_behind_bars_/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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McCain has distanced himself from an obviously corrupted group since his immigration speech that was sponsered by them.
I wonder if Obama will too?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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Acorn is a Mickey Mouse outfit.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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"How on earth anyone would be against outreach programs helping people to register is beyond me. It stinks."
What stinks, Happie, is that these people in ACORN are fraudulently registering people multiple times.
Just because some groups claims to be an 'outreach' or 'community organizer' doesn't give them a green-light to commit fraud and potential crimes.
edit: As TGT points out, even Mickey Mouse can register through ACORN. Yeah!!!!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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Bluey, it kind of looks like the State of Florida is responsible for Mickey Mouse being on their registration.
But they prolly don't mind HIM on the registrar, good for tourism, hehe.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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The default position of precinct officers is to throw out questionable ballots. There are a number of reasons why this might be done, including an odd name, incorrect address, etc. The process is imperfect but almost certainly there are more legit voters whose ballots are not counted than bogus ones that get through.
It would be interesting to know how many votes are lost due to caging and other illegal tactics vs. ballots tallied from illegaly registered voters. Does it more or less wash out? It may be such a comparison has been documented but I haven't yet found it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:00pm PT
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Acorn is not corrupt nor guilty of voter fraud. This is a Repub dirty tricks smear and disinformation scheme. Throughout their existence they have been repeatedly investigated for reasons of partisan politics. And in the bright light of day they have been repeatedly cleared of wrong doing. They will be cleared in this case also. It was Acorn it'self that tagged, bundled and reported these fishy forms to the election officials. Read the whole story find out the truth. Acorn has been an invaluabe asset to the promotion of democracy in the US for years. That is why even McSameShame spoke with them. It is at best disingenious of the current naysayers to flaunt this false assusation against only one canidate. It has no more relevance than the bogusly trumped up Ayers disinformation campaign.
Desperate republicans will attack and destroy anyone for political gain at the expense of truth and integrity. Just as they did to one of their own.Remember McCain in 2000. Not to mention Max McClellan and a few other mangled American war heros. Sacrificed to corrupt political ambitions.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2008 - 12:07pm PT
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There has always been voter fraud to one degree or another in the US. In the past it's been through local machines or precinct corruption. Both parties have had this problem. This is the first time an organization--Acorn--has spread voter corruption across the entire nation. The FBI and state agencies are focusing in on Acorn all across the country. Acorn, in the past, has been accused, found guilty and fined for fraud.
This issue is now spreading with more and more attention given it. Acorn finally overreached. Face it, even Obama is rapidly distancing himself from Acorn; although, that will be very difficult since they've been kissin' cousins for years.
Lois is correct. I find it amusing how some of you go at her personally instead of dealing with the issues point by point
I don't always agree with her, but I read her posts carefully because she's thoughtful, reasoned, coherent and she writes well. Something many of you aren't/don't. You attack instead of reply in a less than mature manner. I've wondered about this attitude of her opponents for quite a bit and have come to two conclusions: she's an outsider and an intelligent female that makes some of you squirm.
I don't know how all of the Acorn issue will effect the campaign; however, it won't help Obama and may do him damage. I have, however, come to a final impression: Obama is nothing more than a corrupt and typical Chicago machine pol. He's dirty to the core. He may well win the coming election; and, if he does, I can't predict the ultimate outcome. It's impossible to know how an individual, based on past history, will perform as President of the US. I know my US history quite well. I will say, though, it is very troubling to have a political hack like Obama running for president. If he wins the election, you better keep all fingers crossed and hope like hell for the best. The next president is going to have not just a full plate of serious problems but an entire banquet to deal with.
In my entire adult/voting experience, I've never been presented with such a disturbing and cockeyed mess. It's too bad the parties can't just start the whole process over and come up with some reasonably decent candidates.
I know, I'll go live with Locker for awhile until I can determine if the nation will hold together. He's so far in the wilderness, it might as well be OZ.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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I've posted this several times but clearly it is not getting through.
Regardless of the allegations against ACORN and their merits these are the actual facts about Obama's connection to Acorn:
1. He was NEVER a community organizer for them.
2. He provided a total of 2 hours of training for them.
3. He represented them as an outside attorney in a legal case alongside the US Justice Department forcing the State of Illinois to enforce voter access laws.
If you actually read the articles associating him with ACORN (and they are all op-ed columns) they all focus on the allegations against ACORN and then very sneakily associate Obama with them with no details and usually not much more than a brief mention.
If you want to be a tool of the Republican party then just close your eyes and keep on believing. If you are the informed person that I'm sure you think you are, you'll do a little research and actually find objectively reported articles.
LEB- Please post some evidence to support your claim of Obama's contemptuous view of the military. Oh wait I forgot, you're just a huge stinkin troll.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Lois,
For Chirst sake, quit pretending you have some kind of special insight into "common folks." Polls show Obama with a 7 point lead. It looks to me like a lot of common folks don't agree with you.
And frankly, it's a rather patronizing term to use.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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"Non-partisan appointed officials"
Well, we have an elections act with regulations and finance to go with it. The Chief Electoral Officer is appointed by a multi-partisan committee of Parliament. There is consensus in the public and the chattering classes that it is essential that all those who are eligible have the opportunity to vote. Any real hanky-panky with respect to registration or voting would be condemned across the country. The CEO is given sufficient resources to do a good job.
Political parties are allowed an oversight role, but not permitted to be active in registering voters - though they do what they can to encourage their supporters to get out and vote, and help them. (I'm expecting three calls any time now - no fun being an independent.)
For rare serious issues, usually a recount, there is a judicial process, open to the public and news media.
Canadians are utterly mystified by the way quite routine public servants are elected on a partisan basis in the U.S. We just appoint them, give them a clearly defined job, and keep them on a respectably tight leash.
Considering how much publicity the work of ACORN is getting, I doubt they could illegally have a smoke outside the office without it being written up. The real issue is that your 'system' is set up to foster partisanship at all levels, often unnecessarily.
I doubt that ACORN has done anything substantive wrong, and no doubt the voter-denial efforts of the Republicans and their fellow-travellers are worse. In terms of ACORN, the Republicans are simply trying to prevent poor, brown, and black people from voting - based on their prejudice that such people would mostly vote Democrat. Of course, if you can manipulate the voting software, as can the Republicans, or have the backing of the Supreme Court for your manipulations, then ...
LEB's reference to Kipling's fine poem "Tommy" is apposite - the poem precisely summarizes the attitude of the current administration (the Republican elite) to the ordinary soldier. Mere servants, sent to do a dirty job.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Woody- You have GOT to be kidding me. LEB's posts are rebutted "point by point" again and again and again. Seems like the only defense you guys have is to not read the posts and then pretend that they are nothing but personal attacks.
Also, it's difficult to rebut trolls.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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"Regardless of the allegations against ACORN and their merits these are the actual facts about Obama's connection to Acorn:
1. He was NEVER a community organizer for them.
2. He provided a total of 2 hours of training for them.
3. He represented them as an outside attorney in a legal case alongside the US Justice Department forcing the State of Illinois to enforce voter access laws. "
Pathetic how they inflate guilt by association. It's all they have left. They can't win on issues.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:18pm PT
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Excellent WoodStroke! Classic double speak from where the world is still flat.
AND LEB
"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there."
Exactly WHAT about that statement indicates the slightest verification of your personal belief of Obama's attitude?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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Or do you believe that bombing civilians is effective military strategy and ethical foriegn policy?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Gee LEB. Looks like you're getting a little touchy there. Is it that I post actual information and the best you can do is post quotes that you reinterpret in the worst way possible?
"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there."
He's saying that currently we don't have enough troops to do much more than air-raid villages which results in a higher civilian casualty toll than would a proper ground operation. This is a simple fact recognized by top military generals which is why he's saying it. He's saying that the troops need MORE SUPPORT.
Now I think this is pretty clear. In fact I think it's so clear that the only way someone could misinterpret it is if they were:
A. Incredibly stupid
or
B. A huge troll
You have your NP (allegedly) so you aren't incredibly stupid, so that must mean you are intentionally misinterpreting it to be a huge troll.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:29pm PT
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"You have your NP (allegedly) so you aren't incredibly stupid, so that must mean you are intentionally misinterpreting it to be a huge troll."
Yep... I think she is intentionally trying to get under peoples skins so that she can tthen act all superior when they blow up and she doesn't. Dirt called it. Smug.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:31pm PT
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LEB if you had been paying any attention at all (which you haven't) you would know that there have been numerous air raids lately that resulted in HUGE numbers civilian casualties because we had bad intelligence and simply bombed the target. That is what he is responding to.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:32pm PT
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LEB - "Now here is my very favorite Obama statement which fits right in with your views. Here is a statement made in Aug 2007 by a man (Obama) who would be Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed forces."
"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there."
Of course it's your favorite line. It's taken out of context, twisted, distorted, and misinterpreted and supports your forgone conclusion. The way the Republicans are spinning it they are implying that he said our military is targeting civilians when in fact they all know he meant 'accidentally', or as they like to call it 'collateral damage'. Our own military leaders are dismayed over the loss of civilian lives while the Republican mindless flock such as yourself 'explain it away' as acceptable as the end justifying the means. Anyone with half a brain knew what he meant by that statement.
The whole damned Republican party is grasping at straws. They are desperate and unscrupulous so anything goes.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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It seems to me there are lots of questions that need answering with regard to this group, ACORN. They appear to be cooperating, but only after they were discovered to be negligent, corrupt, or worse.
From Las Vegas office investigation…
“Some of them used non-existent names, some of them used false addresses and some of them were duplicates of previously filed applications,” (Secretary of State) Walsh said, describing the complaints, which largely came from the registrar in Clark County, Nev. He said some registrations used the names of Dallas Cowboys football players.
From Ohio…
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1125393&srvc=2008campaign&position=12
I guess we'll see where the investigations go.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:38pm PT
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"They appear to be cooperating, but only after they were discovered to be negligent, corrupt, or worse. '
BULLSH#T
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:38pm PT
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bluering- The problem with ACORN that I see is that they are paying people to get voter registrations. They are not alone in this as there have been numerous instances in the recent past of republican organizations paying people to get voter registration but they only got paid for the registrations to the republican part and the rest of the forms were simply thrown away.
Paying people to get voter registrations will always result in numerous registrations of the same person and other problems because people have an incentive to get as many registrations as possible.
In any case, as I've stated this has no connection to Obama.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:39pm PT
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LEB, Did you ever bother to look up the thread where you blew up at me? You called me names, stomped your feet, and maybe even held your breath.
Edit: Oh yeah, you accused me of stalking you, too.
2nd edit: So don't get all high and mighty holier than thou. You lose it in your own way, almost always.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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"consort with Satin"? This I gotta see.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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LEB, but do you teach sex to kindergarteners and pal with terrorists? Until then, you aren't part of the "the club."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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Republicans support torture. This is fact. Lots of democrats also support torture.
George Bush supports torture. So does McCain.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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Sheets or panties Lois sheets or panties?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
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No LEB, it's just that only a stupid person could see that quote as meaning "our troops are evil and specifically target civilians."
Either that or a huge troll. I went with troll since I'm guessing you're not stupid. But maybe you are it's really up to you.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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Anyway, just as long as no one's criticizing hanging chads, Diebold voting "machines", or the Supreme Court - all for proven vote manipulation - it's all good, isn't it? I mean, how can the Republicans win if they don't try the race card?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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Philo, I thought that it was "Fold, or crumple?"
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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LEB, I told you before to look it up for yourself. I know the facts already. It was almost exactly a year ago, if that helps.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:49pm PT
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This ACORN voter fraud meme began several years ago when the Bush Administration began firing state U.S. Attorneys for not complying with suggestions to pursue ACORN voter fraud cases in New Mexico, even after the Attorneys declared the cases to have no merit. Not only does this smear an organization with apparent ties to the Democratic party, but the feds have confiscated computers used by ACORN, hampering their efforts to register voters. It's another case of voter suppression, the preferred method of manipulation by Republicans.
And tell me that some Republican agent provocateur is not responsible for the Micky Mouse application posted earlier. This stinks of right-wing trickery, and comes at a time when the media might have been looking at the increasingly messy Troopergate controversy. Even before this hit CNN, protesters at an Obama rally in Ohio were wearing t-shirts linking Obama to the ACORN scandal. I call bu11sh1t.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:50pm PT
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You guys kill me! If a person is awake and paying attention, a little critical thinking will show that most of these GOP attacks have little more validiity than that of a redneck coming up to you in a bar and saying menacingly "You lookin' at me!"
"From Las Vegas office investigation…
“Some of them used non-existent names, some of them used false addresses and some of them were duplicates of previously filed applications,” (Secretary of State) Walsh said, describing the complaints, which largely came from the registrar in Clark County, Nev. He said some registrations used the names of Dallas Cowboys football players. "
Read my Acorn press release. They are REQUIRED by law to turn in all registrations that are given to them and they flag the hinky ones. No mention of that there. How do we know it's not some fringe conservative group deliberately filing registrations with them so they can level these charges? That would come right out of the playbook of the past two big elections.
And even so, wake up Woody! EVEN if you managed to register as "Elvis Presley" you can't walk in and get away with voting as Elvis.
This is just a smokescreen to smear Obama and coverup in advance the fraud they are planning.
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:52pm PT
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"Yup, that is the choice. I either agree with your conclusion or I admit I am "stupid." Could not possibly be any other alternative - just those two options. The black animal definitively MUST BE a crow.
I will tell you one thing. This "very stupid" person is going to tell you that if you don't stop wasting so much time here on ST arguing with me instead of studying YOU will not even get your RN much less your NP. I think you need to waste less time with me and more time with your textbooks and written assignments."
I think the analogy you are looking for is actually "if it looks like sh#t, if it smells like sh#t and it tastes like sh#t...it's probably sh#t."
Feel free to give me an alternate conclusion then.
Also why do you always revert to trying to tell me to go study? Are you really so lacking substantive argument that the best you can do is tell me to leave?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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" They are REQUIRED by law to turn in all registrations that are given to them and they flag the hinky ones"
Anyone know why this law exist? Its to keep them from screening out people they disagree with. Simple eh? They aren't allowed to screen. That is the job of the registrars office.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:54pm PT
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So TGT, is this really voter fraud or a setup. How childish to use this as an example. You think somebody really goes in and says "I'm Mr Mouse! Let me vote for my fellow rat!"
Just for that, I'm going to post the core of Acorn's statement here again.
"Fact: ACORN has implemented the most sophisticated quality-control system in the voter engagement field, but in almost every state we are required to turn in ALL completed applications, even the ones we know to be problematic.
Fact: ACORN flags incomplete, problem, or suspicious cards when we turn them in, but these warnings are often ignored by election officials. Often these same officials then come back weeks or months later and accuse us of deliberately turning in phony cards.
Fact: Our canvassers are paid by the hour, not by the card, so there is NO incentive for them to falsify cards. ACORN has a zero-tolerance policy for deliberately falsifying registrations, and in the relatively rare cases where our internal quality controls have identified this happening we have fired the workers involved and turned them in to election officials and law-enforcement.
Fact: No charges have ever been brought against ACORN itself. Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes.
Fact: Voter fraud by individuals is extremely rare, and incredibly difficult. There has never been a single proven case of anyone, anywhere, casting an illegal vote as a result of a phony voter registration. Even if someone wanted to influence the election this way, it would not work.
Fact: Most election officials have recognized ACORN's good work and praised our quality control systems. Even in the cities where election officials have complained about ACORN, the applications in question represent less than 1% of the thousands and thousands of registrations ACORN has collected.
Fact: Our accusers not only fail to provide any evidence, they fail to suggest a motive: there is virtually no chance anyone would be able to vote fraudulently, so there is no reason to deliberately submit phony registrations. ACORN is committed to ensuring that the greatest possible numbers of people are registered and allowed to vote, so there is also NO incentive to "disrupt the system" with phony cards.
Fact: Similar accusations were made, and attacks launched, against ACORN and other voter registration organizations in 2004 and 2006. These attacks were not only groundless, they have since been exposed as part of the U.S. Attorneygate scandal and revealed to be part of a systematic partisan agenda of voter suppression.
These are the facts, and the truth is that a relatively small group of political operatives are trying to orchestrate hysteria about "voter fraud" and manufacture public outrage that they can use to further suppress the votes of millions of low-income and minority Americans. "
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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"The implicit comment is that we need to do things differently i.e. we need to do things in a manner so we are NOT just "air-raiding villages and killing civilians.
Apparently, he felt that is precisely what we were doing (lovely!) over there and that we ought not be doing that. Well, I certainly agree we ought not be doing such things but I would dispute him in the notion that such is what we were doing."
LEB, that is exactly what we have been doing. We do not have enough troops on the ground and have to rely on airstrikes without having our own people in the area to "call in" the strikes. As a result, we have been killing more civilians than militants.
Obama wants to change that and give the American commanders the reinforcements that they have been begging for, but which have been denied them by the Bush administration.
There are only so many troops available and the Bush administration (and McCain) have been focusing on Iraq and trying to just "muddle by" (to use McCains' words) in Afghanistan.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081400950.html
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/06/fact-check-what-did-obama-say-about-troops-in-afghanistan/
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
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This isn't complicated. Karl lays it out very concisely above.
ACORN is REQUIRED BY LAW to submit all forms. This serves to prevent a partisan registration drive from simply throwing out registration forms from the opposing party.
ACORN flags potential problem forms themselves.
Even if ACORN registered 8 million people under Mickey Mouse, Alfred E Nueman and others, nobody could actually show up at the polls to vote under those names without fake IDs,addresses, etc.
The only "fraud" here is AGAINST acorn, not on the part of acorn. People are submitting fraudulent forms to get paid for them. That's not voter fraud, that's cheating ACORN for cash.
I know that in the hive mind of the rabid right that logic, law, and facts don't really matter, but this one is simple enough for even the LEBs of the world to understand (whether they want to understand it is debatable).
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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DaftRat I thought we were disscussing the Afganistan theater of operations. But good on ya for bringing up the ole hiding behind civilians trump card again. How many of them do you have? Or do you just keep printing them on demand?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there." "
This statement is entirely and factually correct. It highlights the most glaring of the administration's and Rumsfelds folly in both Afganistan and Iraq. The problem in both was and has been the lack of troop strength - boots on the ground.
Afganistan in particular has been a disaster in this regard. We couldn't get the job done with the troop levels dedicated to the country so we have chosen to rely heavily on the very warlords whose behavior generated the Taliban's rise to power. We chose to abdicate Afganistan to the warlords as our fallback military strategy and ever since we have been largely garrisoned in the capitol and a few outlying provinces - and totally ineffective at bringing about any meaningful societal change in that country beyond returning it to lawlessness and thuggery.
Throughout both conflicts, and as a direct result of not enough boots on the ground, when the US does flex it's might, it relies heavily on air power to do it. The result, as stated in other's posts above, is a tradgic and basically unavoidable level of 'collateral damage'. This collateral damage is families just like yours and god knows the furious rant LEB would be on if so much as her cat were similarly and anonymously dispatched.
And in the end, you don't win 'wars' from the air - you win them on the ground. Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the administration's attempts at [free] 'war' in both Afganistan and Iraq could not be more dismal failures from a military, let alone a geopolitical, perspective. Both 'wars' represented a savage level of incompetence in projecting - no, make that squandering - US military might.
And not unlike Iraq, where we've spent a trillion dollars to simply turn the country over to Shiites with strong Iranian ties. What we have bought with our alignment with and vigorous support of Afganistan's warlord thugocracy is the guaranteed resurrection of the Taliban.
Oh, and don't kid yourself, the only difference between McCain and Obama's hasty retreat from Iraq is a calendar block measured in months - that, and the bumper sticker saying we 'won'.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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LEB et al.,
Stick to the topic, or STFU. Signal to noise and all that...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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LEB- And if you were indeed a professor I have a hard time believing that you are so inept at information gathering that you can't see how you've been lead by the McCain campaign by the nose to the conclusion that you reached regarding your "favorite quote." Ergo...troll.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
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NOBAMA
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:14pm PT
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LEB,
Oh I wasn't hurt by you. I could not possibly care less what you think of me. Truth be told, I was actually quite pleased with myself, which is why I remembered it.
My point it telling you to look it up yourself is that I know you will never bother to dig deep enough for any facts.
Oops. Sorry. You didn't call me a stalker. You called me a predator. My bad.
edit: Sorry, klinefelter. I know it's OT but it strikes at the heart of LEB's lack of interest in details.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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Send me a stack. They would be a great add ons to the McSameShame and Failin stickers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:31pm PT
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Oh, and 'voter fraud' and 'ACORN' - anytime you hear either of those two, guess what that sound is. No, really, take a guess at what that is. Do you hear it? No, come on, try opening your mind and focusing on the intent...
There you go, yep, you're right! Yes, indeed, that's Karl Rove yanking your nipple ring from the shadows trying to make 'voter fraud' into 2008's Willie Horton! Abortion, gay marriage, and immigration just aren't quite carrying their fair share this election cycle so the decisions been made in high - er, low - places that we need to press the race button a little harder to amp up the volume.
What? Race? Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't realize 'voter fraud' (which essentially doesn't exist in the US at any level which even begins to broach statistical significance or an election's margin of error) and 'ACORN' are republican code words for 'black people'. Ah, silly me! what with you being from the mid-atlantic and all I sometimes forget you have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. Doubly so with those guazy blinders on. Girl, Karl makes Jim Henson look like a hack and has you strung up like a marrionet - with almost every political thread you post on you can almost see Karl's pinky twitch.
In fact, I use your uncritical, kneejerk responses here as sort of a 'canary in a coal' or windvane/anemometer to gauge how on-target Karl's performance is each time he looses another one of these festering and divisive volleys on our country. And you? Your songs here are exactly the sweet music that Karl takes to the bank and makes him the maestro of political mayhem.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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I must admit, the campaign isn't boring.
Some of you guys can spin all you want; however, Acorn has in the past been found guilty and fined and is now under serious scrutiny by the FBI and various state investigative agencies. So let's see where it goes. I will make two predictions: if these investigations should ultimately show Acorn involved knowingly in massive voter fraud, it will negatively impact Obama; but that's not my primary prediction. The Obama supporters and the hard left will scream bloody murder that the FBI and various state agencies are part of the "Great Rightwing Conspiracy" to steal the election, and it will also be the greatest manifestation of RACISM in US history since the Pre-Civil War era.
Hang in Lois. It's quite evident from the manner and quality of responses to your posts, you significantly stir up the kids in the sandbox.
This is great fun even if the candidates do suck big time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
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No Woody - repeat after me - there is no statistically significant level of voter fraud in the United States.
'Voter fraud' is a wholly-manufactured proxy for pressing the race button in order to shore up a republican base which is crumbling around the edges.
Say it one more time - the only 'fraud' associate with 'voter fraud' is it's use in this election cycle to play the race card. And when you try to advocate otherwise you are - in fact and deed - contributing to racisim in America. But that's not news other than being half the foundation of republican victories over the past twenty years alongside religion (spelled 'abortion' for the weakminded). Again, it's just this year's 'Willie Horton' writ large.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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LEB - you have no f#cking idea. In fact, your enduring, and in someways, endearing cluelessness and naivete is what makes you such a perfect performance measure for Karl's latest little stage plays. And the lip sync'ing! Marvelous! Quality work there, you've got to hand it to the little beast...
P.S. Oh, and I just LOVE the way he get's '666' to flash across your forehead in neon when you go into the voting booth.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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there is no statistically significant level of voter fraud in the United States.
If the Daily machine hadn't delivered the votes of 30,000 dead Democrats in 1960, Nixon would have won.
Nixon refused pressure from his staff to contest the vote (he probably would have won the challenge). His position was that it would be to damaging to the unity of the country to force the issue.
Read up on your history H.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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"'Voter fraud' is a wholly-manufactured proxy for pressing the race button in order to shore up a Republican base which is crumbling around the edges."
I disagree. The Republicans are crumbling, period. At their core. Desperate people do desperate things. After 30 years of hegemony, they have little raison d'etre other than trying to hang on to power, by any means possible. They're bereft of ideals or direction.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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This is great. There are no issues that Republicans can win on. No ideas that they can put forward to better the country. Nothing good that they can say about their party or their candidate or even their world view.
It's 1994 all over again and all they can do is try to create as much fake scandal as possible and tie those they have deemed unworthy to them.
I'm sorry you guys think that "riling up" is the same as "making intelligent points." I'm sure it feels good though. "My political party and worldview are devoid of ideas that could better my country but I made someone post angrily on the internet so everything is ok now!"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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It's 2008 and such olde school machines don't exist in our society any more. Even in Chicago (where I'm from), Daly's son has long since moved past it as unwieldy and archaic.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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LEB wrote..."I have been a professor for 12 years"
LEB, you are NOT a real professor. You are most obviously a clued out troll :)
And according to your employer, your official position is "Clinical Instructor". Professors generally have Ph.Ds.
http://ucoll.fdu.edu/nursing/faculty.html
Lois Brenneman,; B.S.C, B.S.N., M.S.N.
Clinical Instructor
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Lois Brenneman,; B.S.C, B.S.N., M.S.N.
Clinical Instructor
Internet Troll
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Lois, you've reached the Loising point long ago.
Others have rebutted your Obama remark complaint but
From the NYT
"The rules of engagement were reviewed and tightened in 2007 after a spate of civilian casualties, under Gen. Dan K. McNeill, then the top NATO commander in Afghanistan, and reviewed and revised again in April, officials said.
American commanders acknowledge that civilian casualties undermine support for the NATO-led stability mission exactly at a time when the Taliban is experiencing a potent resurgence across the country. They say Afghan officials, including President Hamid Karzai, routinely complain about civilian deaths in meetings with Americans."
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Binks
Social climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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The GOP is dead. It has no message, no platform, and no plan. It is losing not only the presidential race, but nearly every contested seat in congress. How many times has McSame changed his song and dance in the last 6 weeks? I can't wait for next week's "revised stump speech".
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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Here let me sum up LEB's response for you Karl:
"I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but people such as yourself who hold the military in such utter contempt could not possibly hope to have a reasonable opinion about this matter. The simple fact is that Obama thinks the military is evil and you do not want that to come to light, because if the media ever took the spotlight off of McCain for a moment the whole country would realize how terrible Obama really is.
Also, MY GARDEN."
How'd I do?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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Thanks for proving my point Fatty.
(Don't forget to add that Palin knows more about energy than any person in the country.)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Really DaftRat you are desperate enough to pull the PLO card?
Wow digging deep in the bottom of the barrel now! You go girl.
McSameShame pales in comparison to Greg Mortenson and thousands of other Americans.
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Binks
Social climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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McCain is a loser who has systematically destroyed his own credibility over the course of this year. It's almost like he's intentionally destroying not only his own chances but bringing down the rest of the party as well. The disgust with his incredibly bad choice of Palin runs deep. He's switched positions and tactics so many times that no one believes he has any message or vision. Even if I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, that fool Palin just can't be allowed anywhere near the office of VP.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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"Anyway, I must go since I must I do I must give Karl Rove a BJ lest he continue to yank my nipple ring and mind control me."
Thanks for that. I'm not sure who's getting the raw end of that deal!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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"Obama was originally funded in Ill. by the US spokesperson for the PLO, Rezko has ties to Syria and he is just a socilaist. "
Blah blah blah, guilt by association.
By the way, the world's most active socialists right now occupy the white house. McCain supported those efforts.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 14, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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As for fraud by the "Daily" (you mean Daley) machine in Chicago tipping the 1960 election, try again.
The electoral college in 1960 was 303 to JFK and 219 to Nixon. Illinois had 27 votes. Forgetting about whether or not there actually was fraud, even if Illinois had gone the other way, it wouldn't have changed the overall result.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:06pm PT
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Guilt by association?
Why hasn't McCain quit the Republican party? I mean, this is an impressive list of pedophiles.
Maybe McCain never met any of these people but, hey, who's keeping track?
* Republican legislator Robert A. McKee pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography.
* Republican legislator Scott Muschany was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl.
* Republican chief of staff Eric Feltner pleaded guilty to showing pornography to a 13-year old girl.
* Republican presidential campaign official Matthew Joseph Elliott was convicted of sexual exploitation of a child.
* Republican Party Chairman Donald Fleischman was charged with two counts of child enticement, two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a child and a single charge of exposing himself to a child.
* Republican prosecutor John David Roy Atchison was arrested for soliciting sex from a 5-year old girl, then killed himself three weeks later. At the time of his arrest, Atchison was an "assistant U.S. attorney" appointed by President Bush's attorney general.
* Republican city councilman John Bryan killed himself after police began investigating allegations that he had molested three girls, including two of his adopted daughters, ages 12 and 15.
* Republican legislator Ted Klaudt was charged with raping girls under the age of 16.
* Republican city councilman Joseph Monteleone Jr. was found guilty of fondling underage girls.
* Republican congressional aide Jeffrey Nielsen was arrested for having sex with a 14-year old boy.
* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.
* Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
* Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
* Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin was convicted of molesting an underage teenage boy and sentenced to serve six to 18 months in prison.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
* Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.
* Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
* Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child and was arrested again five years later on the same charge.
* Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
* Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
* Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer.
* Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
* Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.
* Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.
* Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.
* Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.
* Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced prison after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.
* Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.
* Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.
* Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.
* Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.
* Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.
* Republican legislator Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).
* Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was found guilty of molesting a 15-year old girl.
* Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.
* Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.
* Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.
* Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.
* Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.
* Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.
* Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.
* Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.
* Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a "good military man" and "church goer," was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.
* Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.
* Republican campaign worker, police officer and self-proclaimed reverend Steve Aiken was convicted of having sex with two underage girls.
* Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.
* Republican president of the New York City Housing Development Corp. Russell Harding pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer.
* Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was found guilty of raping a 15-year old girl. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women.
* Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency. See excerpt of one prisoner's report here and his full report here.
Disclaimer: I did a search for 'convicted republicans' and found the above list. I also did a search for 'convicted democrats' and found a large list as well. However, there were only two listings for sex crimes against minors.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Maybe you should spend a little more time worrying about your candidate's lack of ideas and appeal, Fatty. Throwing mud at Obama has only helped divide the country...it hasn't done squat for winning votes. If you have succeeded in anything it's in motivating the most ignorant to be excited to vote for a candidate that they were previously unenamored with.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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fattrad - I've asked a couple other places but you must not have seen them: Can you get me tickets to the presidential debates happening tomorrow at Hofstra University?
I know it's last minute but I would love to see them in person.
Since it;s likely you won't be able to - will Supertopians please do like last time and make a "Live Action" commentators thread during the broadcast?
EDIT: Oh yeah - that list of sex offenders is hideous. Frightening. Some people are saying they don't want poor people/minorities/inmates to vote but jeezus christ - how on earth can people allow a person who treats others in the ways listed above to not spend at least a decade in prison? A rapist/molester/pedophile sentences their victim to a lifetime sentence; the least we can do is have harsher penalties for such abuses of children. NO person convicted of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, should EVER get off with probation only.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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Sure Happie. If I'm able I'll start another thread.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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I'm more worried about Obama's original funding from the former PLO spokesman.
Jody's evil twin......Emperor of Yosemite.
Hey Emp-error you never cease trying to give the Palestinians a black eye and by association anyone who even remotely associates with them. Are you trying to cast Obama as a PLO stooge? This too will backfire on you and McSameShame.
I personally know the former Swiss Ambassador to the PLO. He is one of the most intelligent, thoughtfull, insightfull, and decent people I know. Tell me what is his crime?
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:02pm PT
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Obama has been in bed with ACORN for years and that will remain no matter how his apologists try to spin it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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The best way to avoid factual information is to not look for it and pretend it's spin when it's presented to you.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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Was he or was he knott involved with ACORN?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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As I've stated numerous times, the only objective reporting on this issue showed that he was involved in the following manner all of which was in the mid-90's:
1. Trained acorn staff for 2 hours
2. Represented them along with the US Justice Department against the State of Illinois to enforce voter access laws, which he won.
That's it, that is all. He was never an organizer, never a staff lawyer, never a staff trainer.
Here is John McCain "being involved with ACORN" in 2006:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php
It's a joke of an issue. I understand that you're frustrated because he's winning but let's be serious, this is totally a bogus issue. The issue of voter fraud is serious, but Obama being involved with it is a total joke.
If you want to maintain that he was involved then you have to also maintain that McCain praised and supported their actions, just as he does in that video.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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10-4. McCain is a crook too.
The fraud all appears to be heavily weighted towards democratic registration.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
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The fraud is not ACORN's doing dimwit. They are the organization that brought these questionable forms to the attention of the officials.
But keep spewing your disinformation. At least you have convinced yourself. Oh and look again it's not a flashlight it's an anal dildo. Put it to good use 'cause you are full of it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 14, 2008 - 08:36pm PT
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They may be numb but at least I have some. ACORN has been investigated and cleared before.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
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Since this story is getting bigger and bigger in the news, even the MSM, we'll know soon enough. Acorn is being investigated all around the old USA due to local and state complaints.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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Yes, and as we speak, people are pulling up their Obama lawn signs in disgust.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:14pm PT
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Hey Woody, yooz be choppin' but no chips iz flyin'
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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WoodySt - Since this story is getting bigger and bigger in the news, even the MSM, we'll know soon enough.
Only thing getting bigger is Obama's lead: Obama now leads McCain 50% to 41% - LA Times
On CNN this evening, they're now discussing whether it's going to be a landslide. McCain has already lost.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Like I said, Jody (and Woody)....the best way to avoid factual information is to not look for it and pretend it's spin when it's presented to you.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:38pm PT
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" McCain has already lost."
Which means he has you right where he wants you.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:49pm PT
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I keep reading posts suggesting that voter fraud is a myth. I'm still sitting here with my mailer from one of the candidates suggesting I vote twice. It's from the party I registered with way back when I was in college. I don't belong to any party now. I also know for a fact that convicted felons have been registered to vote in Athens, GA and in Florida as reported by the Sun Sentinel. It's a fact. It would be nice if we could come up with a method to insure against voter fraud but neither party will agree to one. It would probably be "discriminatory" or something. Having accesable voting registration available for any citizen is important but you have to wonder when you live in a lower income area, as I do, and every grocery store suddenly has solicitation table set out with college punks pushing voting. They are worse than the girlscouts. And why is there a voting commercial on Nickelodeon?? WTF? Shouldn't it be on Noggin? Maybe "The Count" should start talking about politics. "One, one vote for Obama. Two, two votes for Obama. Ah ha ha ha ha!"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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Haha Jody you have no actual response do you? You asked for information, I gave it and you're right back with your fingers in your ears pretending you don't care who wins but rooting for McCain and looking for every reason (even invented ones) to demonize Obama.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 14, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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jbar - Would it be too much to quote the letter about voting twice? I,d like to know just exactly how someone would word such a thing. It seems to me that forget Acorn, if a campaign is suggesting people double dip in the vote - that would be a legitimate story. I'm sure that if you got such a letter others have too.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:11pm PT
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When Obama wins and things keep getting worse...are you guys going to blame Obama or Bush?
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
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When Obama wins and things keep getting worse...are you guys going to blame Obama or Bush?
When [Bush] wins and things [start] getting worse...are you guys going to blame [Bush] or [Clinton]?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
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"When Obama wins and things keep getting worse...are you guys going to blame Obama or Bush?"
Bush, 8 years of his policies will take some time to overcome. Plus you blamed Clinton for 911, so we get a free pass for awhile.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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Hey Happie - As you can guess neither of the candidates would be stupid enough to do something blatantaly illegal despite some of the stupid things that may come out of their mouths. You have to read a little into it to get the point. No comspiracy therory here though. It's simple common sense.
The mailer simply admonishes that I can "vote by mail" and gives me instructions on how to request an absentee ballot in my former state of Florida. I am and have been a registered voter in GA for nearly 10 years. I have also lived in 3 different homes since moving here. I find it odd that I received this mailer at my current residence in GA asking me to vote in FL. Could simply be because I am former military but I doubt it. I never believed our ballots were counted since the results were always announced a day and a half after our ballots were mailed out from the middle east.
Seriously, what does it matter who we vote for anyway if the electoral college is going to vote their bias anyway?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 14, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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Still waiting for a response about how McCain appointing a Saddam Hussein lobbyist who worked with two now convicted felons to the head of his Presidential Transition Team is supposed to be ok.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 15, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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We have Vote-By-Mail imposed on us here.
I have NO Polling Place to cast a secret ballot, and I haven't for several years. The only way The Man lets me and my neighbors vote is by mail, which deprives me of my right to cast a secret ballot and also imposes a poll tax; The Post Office ain't gonna deliver your ballot without a stamp.
And this year word on the street says it's going to require two first-class stamps to make postage because of the Vote-By-Mail's over-size-idiot-proof-mostly-in-Spanish ballot.
One stamp, like every other letter anyone mails, will get your ballot returned, probably after the election.
Where the f#ck is AKORN when I need them?
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 15, 2008 - 12:54am PT
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Chaz that sux! I don't see how they can charge postage on a ballot. I always laughed at people saying mandatory voter identification was discriminatory since a state i.d. is free but your case is clearly discriminatory. I don't agree with the push to get people to vote because I believe if a person feels voting is important they should get off their kiesters and go do it but it's got to be accessible.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 15, 2008 - 01:50am PT
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All I know is that if Obama wins he will enslave the white race and give out free Parliaments.
Also Islam will be the official religion.
And the Pledge of Allegiance will be changed to "one nation under Allah."
Chaz: That is super bogus they make you pay postage. I guess they could pay for it themselves if they RAISED TAXES. They could also probably afford voting machines if they RAISED TAXES.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:12am PT
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The latest CBS/New York Times poll reflects many others: "Over all, the poll found that if the election were held today, 53 percent of those determined to be probable voters said they would vote for Mr. Obama and 39 percent said they would vote for Mr. McCain."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/us/politics/15poll.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
In round numbers, the U.S. has 300 million citizens. Let's say that 200 million of them are theoretically eligible to vote - over 18, physically and mentally able, not in prison. Then let's say that 150 million of them actually register, and of those, 60% actually vote, or at least try to vote. That would be 90 million voters. (All in the rink, but I can't be bothered to look them up.)
Then let's say that Obama gets (53/39 + 53 + 1)% of the votes, and McCain (39/39 + 53 + 1)% of the votes. (I added 1% for third party and write ins.) That means Obama gets 51.3 million votes, McCain 37.8 million. The difference is 13.5 million.
If anyone, even Diebold, manages to steal or fabricate 13.5 million votes to make up the difference, I will be exceedingly impressed. And if Acorn has managed to register 13.5 million illegitimate voters, you should just let them take over, as they will anyway. I have no doubt that both parties will do what they can to try to influence the numbers of voters - they're supposed to do. I doubt that either will do so in the light of day. The real concern is who counts the votes, and how. A lot more rides on that than inconsequential allegations of trivial deficiencies in registration.
It's the "did not/could not registers" and the "did not/could not votes" who are the really depressing thing.
Look for McCain to come out punching as hard as he can on Wednesday.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:16am PT
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"Do we know for absolute certain that they will be Parliments. I mean have you carefully researched this matter? It is important that we post facts accurately. They COULD be Marlboros, no?"
LEB if you knew anything about racial stereotypes then you'd know that this in "fact" was not possible.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2008 - 02:26am PT
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For those of you that claim Acorn has never had workers prosecuted for voter fraud:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-complete-guide-to-acorn-voter-fraud/
The details are here on some of Acorn's legal problems in the past. They're corrupt, and that's why the Great One is scampering away from them as fast as he can. You Obama supporters better hope further investigations don't implicate him because this mess has legs now, and the legs are getting longer by the day.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:39am PT
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HDDJ I heard they were going to be Kools
Don't have to raise taxes if we stop giving money out to every open hand. There isn't a social program I know of I haven't seen abused. If your vote really counted I think people would be more concerned about it being fair.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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OK guys, Here's what's wrong with voter drives..explicitly fraudulent or otherwise: It's already easy enough to vote!
Most people here sound like they have actually thought about the issues and candidates, and care enough to cast a ballot that represents their beliefs. But I cringed when I read ACORN's proud achievements of registering tens of thousands of otherwise indifferent voters, showing them where to sign, telling them who the candidates are, taking them to polls on election day. If these new voters gave two sh*ts about the election or had anything going on in their brain regarding public policy they would have taken care of these things on their own. Yes, the old Jim Crow laws that tested voters' literacy were unfair, but at a minimum a person ought to have to make some minimal f&cking effort before they potentially counteract the votes of the rest of us.
And oh, voter drives are structurally fraudulent b/c people who know nothing about a decision they have to make naturally seek the advice of those helping them. "Hey Acorn guy, now that I have this power.. which candidate is good and which is bad?"
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 15, 2008 - 03:04am PT
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Balanced against that, the U.S. has amongst the lowest voter turnout for national elections of any developed country. Even less for state and local elections. In some democracies, such as I believe Australia, they get better than 80% turnout. Wouldn't it be worth considering a somewhat more effective and impartial registration and voting system, where citizens have some confidence in the integrity of the system, and it's protected against partisan distortions?
I suppose you'd next like to disenfranchise women ("they just vote the way their husbands do, anyway") and bring back a means/property test for voters ("proves someone's a solid citizen").
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 15, 2008 - 03:04am PT
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"The details are here on some of Acorn's legal problems in the past. They're corrupt, and that's why the Great One is scampering away from them as fast as he can. You Obama supporters better hope further investigations don't implicate him because this mess has legs now, and the legs are getting longer by the day."
Well sh#t that's it. Mind blown. I'm voting for McCain now. I don't know what I'd do without you guys feeding me this information.
I heard Obama is a Muslim? Is this true? Also that his preacher was actually a Muslim. Will you clear this up for me? I want my giant yard sign to be factually correct. Or do facts matter? I'm new to this whole voting Republican thing.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Oct 15, 2008 - 03:09am PT
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I can be a very charitable person. I don't have very much money to give anyone but I help who I can and I give any way I can. For example last week I: Bought lunch for my favorite "urban outdoorsman", loaned $500 I didn't have to my mother, replaced a wire and a transformer on someones a/c saving them $250 they didn't have, and replaced a starter on someones car. I don't make very much and I pay too much in taxes. I don't like going to the grocery store and seeing people that make more money than I do section their groceries so they cover the basics with the WIC check they get from my taxes and buy their beer, ice cream and cigarettes with the money they make under the table. Lot's of issues in that one sentence. Where I live I see it every day. If I'm going to give money away I want it to be for something or someone I think deserves it. Not someone who drives a nicer car than I do or someone who decided to take on 30,000 in debt with poor choices.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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Lois,
Your humor is appreciated.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 15, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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"Yes, the old Jim Crow laws that tested voters' literacy were unfair, but at a minimum a person ought to have to make some minimal f&cking effort before they potentially counteract the votes of the rest of us. "
Seems to me that in Ohio and many other regions last big election, it was the poor folks that had to wait in line for many hours to vote (many, many hours in some cases) while there were few to no incidents of such effort required in wealthy precincts.
This "Acorn" hub-bub is all about creating paranoia about them Black people voting and taking over control of us white people. Nobody has shown a shred of evidence that any of these problems could result in any number of people improperly voting
when you stack that against the fraud of electronic voting machines, calling people up with voter misinformation, and calling non-criminals felons to get them off the roles, it's offensive to hear the right wing suddenly upset about "voter (registration) fraud"
Put your money where your mouth is and let's advocate LONG prisons sentences for those who actually twist the vote against the law
Peace
Karl
Come on Woody, show a a link that's not from a right wing site that will show both sides of the story.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 12:47pm PT
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"Joe, yes that is right, Karl Rove is yanking my nipple ring and also, don't forget, he is controlling my mind, as well. And now he is even a regular on Fox News. Man, Satan, really HAS descended upon us."
No more Satin?
I'm still trying to figure out how Obamas connection with ACORN is wrong he didn't commit anything related to voter fraud(*preemptive show me facts*),even if ACORN did. It's more of this lame guilt by association,and truthfully, its not guilt, nothing has yet to be proven only sensationalized and fantasized by a group of people reduced to fits and temper tantrums that should only be acceptable from toddlers.
If we are to judge people by the people they have associated with, we are losing a much larger battle than a political one.
"...Dreams in which the human animal
walks past or bends down, a nameless thing
to attack or accept, whose hate or love
they sense is somehow relative to theirs,
brush on a palette, reed of the oboe,
sharper, mindful, but incredibly more lost
in the details of waking,
the blanket's ripple as we lift it from us,
the tiny words we say to know we are."
Get real People.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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Well Karl, unfortunately, finding it on a leftwing site is rather difficult. On the other hand, a day or two ago I posted an even more detailed article from the Wall Street Journal on this same issue. Of course, you probably don't find the WSJ acceptable either. So Karl, what you are really saying is "Please don't post anything that may oppose what I think. I don't like to read that which may conflict with my preconceived ideas; it's so upsetting."
I read across the board from Kos, Huff, Open Left, Crooks and Liars etc. to rightwing and moderate. I read through about fifteen sites a day from all quarters. You need to do that Karl; it's the only way you can put the puzzle pieces together and get a reasonable feel for what's going on-- as close to the truth as possible.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:06pm PT
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Unfortunately LEB, my post went whooshing over your head. Talking circles dose nothing but make people dizzy.
"This is more a case of having sympatico for given organizations or persons whose agendas are not exactly secret. It is more like his association with Rev Wright. You can not be a member of the man's church for twenty some years and not get the flavor of his thinking - which in this case was very extreme. If it did not ring some note of accord with you, then you would not be able to sit through those sermons and participate in the church. It speaks to an underlying mindset more than anything else."
Making the assumption that all Christians have to believe or follow every word their pastor says to them, is in your eyes guilt by association(yes, it is). Many intelligent Christians faithfully go to church but don't buy into everything preached to them. Categorically lumping people like this is unintelligent and demeaning to the followers, and the religion as a whole.
Black and white, with a touch of gray.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
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"It's not just voter fraud..............Obama is a fraud, early sponsorship from the PLO, Ayers, Wright, disciple of Alinsky, you folks are being duped. I've got some great houses in Stockton just ready for you."
Will the owner finance? Because I don't think the banks have any money to loan me after the fraudulent election and re-election of our current president.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
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If you all want to keep talking 'guilt by association' then I'll post this list again since some of you seemed to miss it the first time around.
Seems to me that Republican values means being a pedophile.
* Republican legislator Robert A. McKee pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography.
* Republican legislator Scott Muschany was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl.
* Republican chief of staff Eric Feltner pleaded guilty to showing pornography to a 13-year old girl.
* Republican presidential campaign official Matthew Joseph Elliott was convicted of sexual exploitation of a child.
* Republican Party Chairman Donald Fleischman was charged with two counts of child enticement, two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a child and a single charge of exposing himself to a child.
* Republican prosecutor John David Roy Atchison was arrested for soliciting sex from a 5-year old girl, then killed himself three weeks later. At the time of his arrest, Atchison was an "assistant U.S. attorney" appointed by President Bush's attorney general.
* Republican city councilman John Bryan killed himself after police began investigating allegations that he had molested three girls, including two of his adopted daughters, ages 12 and 15.
* Republican legislator Ted Klaudt was charged with raping girls under the age of 16.
* Republican city councilman Joseph Monteleone Jr. was found guilty of fondling underage girls.
* Republican congressional aide Jeffrey Nielsen was arrested for having sex with a 14-year old boy.
* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.
* Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
* Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
* Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin was convicted of molesting an underage teenage boy and sentenced to serve six to 18 months in prison.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
* Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.
* Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
* Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child and was arrested again five years later on the same charge.
* Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
* Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
* Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer.
* Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
* Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.
* Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.
* Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.
* Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.
* Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced prison after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.
* Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.
* Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.
* Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.
* Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.
* Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.
* Republican legislator Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).
* Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was found guilty of molesting a 15-year old girl.
* Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.
* Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.
* Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.
* Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.
* Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.
* Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.
* Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.
* Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.
* Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a "good military man" and "church goer," was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.
* Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.
* Republican campaign worker, police officer and self-proclaimed reverend Steve Aiken was convicted of having sex with two underage girls.
* Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.
* Republican president of the New York City Housing Development Corp. Russell Harding pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer.
* Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was found guilty of raping a 15-year old girl. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women.
* Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency. See excerpt of one prisoner's report here and his full report here.
Disclaimer: I did a search for 'convicted republicans' and found the above list. I also did a search for 'convicted democrats' and found a large list as well. However, there were only two listings for sex crimes against minors.
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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How is it apples and oranges?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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Once again, Lois misses the point.
But I can never vote for McCain since he associates with so many sex offenders.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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"Yeah but in 23 years one just might have found another minister. That is a VERY long time to sit in that church. I mean we are not talking about disagreeing with someone on a point or two. This man is as extreme as they come and two plus decades is nothing to sneeze at"
I'm sorry Lois, but its incredibly lame to call someone out on their religion. Many "accepted" religions have very passionate men and woman preaching what they believe, and a lot of it, to people like me, seems a bit out there, but I don't hold it against them. listening to what someone says to someone else, and then making assumptions about what you think the person hearing it thought about what was said, is a ridiculous way to judge a persons character.I have never heard Obama say "God Damn America" nor do I think he believes it.
As for ACORN, what was Obama's connection again? why is it an issue?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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The Ayers thing is a joke, does ANYBODY believe Ayers was one of the top 300 people in Obama's life. And LEB, Palin's preacher is a wacko too!
Woody, I read your WSJ article but I still don't see how anybody could fraudulently actually vote from this Acorn thing. Again, they say they flag hinky registrations and turn them in anyway, (BY LAW mostly) Why don't these articles ever note how many of the phony registrations were already flagged as bad by Acorn?
Why?
Funny, 2000 years ago the "holier than thou" crowd gave Jesus a ration of sh#t for hanging out with tax collectors and shady women.
Thing is, if this is al you have on Obama, then read the Rolling Stone piece and then come back here
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:46pm PT
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Karl, what's interesting is that no one (well, no one official and somewhat rational, anyway) has actually accused Obama of doing bad things with Ayers or ACORN. Guilt by association--and pretty thin associations, at that--is all they have.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 15, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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Let's see, both our current president and the GOP VP candidate have made comments that make it sound like they feel it was God's will that we invade Iraq. That's scarier to me than anything Wright has said.
This guilt by association thing is lame. I will give McCain some credit, as it sounds like he has gone against the advice of some of his team and continues to refuse to bring up the Rev Wright stuff. McCain's supposed words regarding this "I know Barack Obama and I know that he does not believe the things that Wright was saying".
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Oct 15, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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ACORN must submit any and all voter registration applications it receives.
Federal law.
Now, if a group of republican hacks decide to sabotage ACORN by submitting FRAUDULENT applications...... you get the picture.
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DJS
Trad climber
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Oct 15, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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Okay LEB
Since Obama is a "terrorist sympathizer" because of his association with Ayers while working on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge then that means these others are just as guilty:
Patricia Albjerg Graham - She was also appointed by the President of the United States as the director of the National Institute of Education.
Stanley O. Ikenberry - former president of the University of Illinois and served as the tenth president of the American Council on Education.
Arnold R. Weber - President Emeritus of Northwestern University since July 1998.
Ray Romero - Vice President and general counsel of Ameritech.
Edward Bottum - managing director of Chase Franklin Corp.
Susan Blankenbaker Noyes - daughter of Republican former Indiana state senator Virginia Murphy Blankenbaker.
Victoria Chou - dean of the College of Education at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
Also we obviously have to label Annenberg a "terrorist sympathizer" if he appointed Ayers to head the Challenge Group. Continuing your guilt by association theme will have to add Ronald Reagan who appointed Annenburg as ambassador to the UK.
Slippery slope anyone???
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 15, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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Well, I don't think you'll find anyone but Acorn hiring flashing transvestites.
http://tinyurl.com/4l9mr2
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
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"While no Biden family members are being paid by the Obama-Biden campaign, one of Joe Biden´s greatest political strengths and secret weapon has always been his sister Valerie, starting with her role managing his David-versus-Goliath upset Senate victory in 1972," said Biden spokesman David Wade.
"Valerie is a well-known and highly regarded political operative in Democratic politics in Delaware and nationally, and her firm has worked on top races from Michigan to Texas. End of story," Mr. Wade said.
hmmm.....
"Mr. Biden is hardly alone among members of Congress whose campaigns hold close ties to family. FEC records also show that Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain's political action committee, Straight Talk America, paid more than $15,000 in 2006 to his wife, Cindy."
"McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers said the payment reimbursed Mrs. McCain for catering expenses she had covered in connection with an election night party."
You and that article makes a scathing accusation up front, but the article ends saying that lots of dems pay the same company for the same work.
you need to look up nepotism, paying a company for its services is far from nepotism.
NEXT!
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 15, 2008 - 07:15pm PT
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"Well, I don't think you'll find anyone but Acorn hiring flashing transvestites."
That video never said that she was paid a dime nor did it say she was an employee of ACORN. Come on I know you TGT you seem like a reasonable fellow, your statement is not only an outright lie, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA!
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Oct 15, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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This ACORN stuff is now meaningless to most of the electorate. The tipping point has been reached and now it is just a question of how much Obama will win by.
My copy of "Physics Today" just came today and in it was the quadrennial article of questions on science policy posed by the editors to the presidential candidates. Obama responded, but the McCain campaign couldn't be bothered. What is his problem??Science policy is critical for the USA. Talk about out of touch.
Tomo
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 15, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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How much Obama wins by will be determined by ACORN and Ayers. McCain was right...they are a threat to the very fabric of our democracy.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 15, 2008 - 10:01pm PT
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Probably don't eat apple pie, either. Darn pinkos!
Not of course to be confused with reds, who live in red states. They may be red, but they're not really red. And they're certainly not pinkos, or fellow-travellers, or commies, even if they are RED. If you read me, that is.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 15, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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Tomo wrote: "...questions on science policy posed by the editors to the presidential candidates. Obama responded, but the McCain campaign couldn't be bothered. What is his problem??Science policy is critical for the USA. Talk about out of touch."
From this ST thread,http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=693933&msg=694080#msg694080, here's a list of each campaigns primary science and technology advisers. It makes for a pretty good explanation as to why Obama could answer and McCain neglected to.
For Sen. Obama they are:
Henry Kelly - Federation of American Scientists
Gil Omenn - Professor of Internal Medicine,University of Michigan
Dan Kammen - Professor of Energy Research, University of California, Berkeley
Sharon Long - Professor of Biology, Stanford
Don Lamb - Astrophysicist, University of Chicago
Harold Varmus - Nobel laureate -Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Jason Grumet - Bipartisan Policy Center (energy policy expert)
Tom Kalil - Science and technology advisor to the Chancellor, University of California
For Sen. McCain they are:
Robert McFarlane- former National Security Advisor
James Woolsey - former director Central Intelligence Agency
James Schlesinger - former Secretary of Defence
Meg Whitman - former CEO, eBay
Carly Fiorina, former CEO, Hewlett-Packard
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:05pm PT
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The entire subject of registration to vote, and voting, is the subject of a scathing editorial in today's New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/opinion/17fri1.html?hp
"But for all of the McCain campaign’s manufactured fury about vote theft (and similar claims from the Republican Party over the years) there is virtually no evidence — anywhere in the country, going back many elections — of people showing up at the polls and voting when they are not entitled to."
"Meanwhile, Republicans aren’t saying anything about another more serious voter-registration scandal: the fact that about one-third of eligible voters are not registered. The racial gaps are significant and particularly disturbing. According to a study by Project Vote, a voting-rights group, in 2006, 71 percent of eligible whites were registered, compared with 61 percent of blacks, 54 percent of Latinos and 49 percent of Asian-Americans."
"Much of the blame for this lies with overly restrictive registration rules. Earlier this year, the League of Women Voters halted its registration drive in Florida after the state imposed onerous new requirements."
A 'system' that in effect disenfranchises 1/3 of the voters, in part due to fabricated concerns that a trivial number of non-eligible persons would be registered, is a national embarrassment. I believe that in most developed democracies, voter registration is handled by civil servants, and over 90% of eligible citizens are registered to vote.
The continuing Republican attack on democracy.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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bluering- More activist judges deciding elections. This country is going downhill fast.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:31pm PT
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Who are these people that are too stupid to register to vote without ACORN ? Does ACORN help them wipe their ass too??
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:36pm PT
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didn't read the whole thread, but there is an article in the new rolling stone about teh mssive voter purges the repulican party has done across america
Colorado purging 1 in 6 voters this year...2.7 million new voter registrations rejected...
news is on palast's site...
http://www.gregpalast.com/rolling-stone-its-already-stolen/
good thing the army is on american soil now - mad voters might actually revolt, given that the economy is collapsing and the uber rich are starting to get a little blatant about the class warfare...
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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They are purging voters because they are fraudulent. Man, if someone really steals an election through widespread voter fraud ( and don't bring up the hanging chad BS from 2004 ), that will be trouble. Good thing I have lots of guns and 1000's of rounds of ammo..........
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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"overly restrictive registration rules"
pray tell...does the nyt fail elaborate on these "overly restrictive" rules or did the hiker just think the specific rules are not relevant...if the nyt says it's so, it must be so?
by the way, is photo identification "overly restrictive"?
and does the nyt believe that thousands of illegitimate forms submitted just weeks before the election--which i'd call a dump--is not cause for concern...it takes time and money to verify each form
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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the last two presidential elections were the only 2 where exit polls did not patch the results.
in all cases the race went red when the exit polls were blue.
when it happens again, we will all grumble and feed our kids and our money deeper into the war machine.
god is soooo f*#king proud of us all...so's jesus ;-) you now he was with the money changers and not the poor...
idiots...
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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Again, elections are not won by padding the voter rolls with fraudulent ballots, but by suppressing votes in key areas. ACORN and related stories will be smokescreen for the real fraud.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Oct 17, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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yeah - it gets you on the 'list' ;-)
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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fattrad, what's with all the ominous, cryptic warnings about voting a certain way? Are the Republicans planning their kristallnacht?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:29pm PT
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We have no documented evidence in any recent election of systematic voter fraud committed through spurious registration. Those claims were at the crux of the DoJ scandal, in which the Bush administration fired federal prosecutors for failing to pursue voting fraud charges. (They didn't pursue them, even though they were conservative Republicans, because there was no evidence of voter fraud.)
There are other means of election fraud. The Texas Democratic machine stuffing ballot boxes back in 1960; the systematic voter suppression carried out in essentially each and every election in southern and mid-southern states; Willie Brown's SF opening polls early in favorable districts. But we have virtually no documented cases (despite the devotion of 8 years of Republican investigators nationwide) of voter fraud through fake registration.
http://www.slate.com/id/2202428/
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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don't forget the sworn testimony before congress from the programmer clint curtis in florida that was paid to write the vote flipping software for the republican party...
actual footage :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hUPP_bdOo
no joke...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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If you can't afford to get a new photo ID every time you change addresses then you SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO VOTE.
It's that simple. People who are THAT poor or dumb having an equal vote with everyone else is ridiculous. Overly restrictive voting laws my ass.
Bluering is right. Just cause the NYT says its so doesn't mean it's so.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a8VcTV6qWpA8&refer=home
Ohio Democrats Win at Top U.S. Court in Voting Fight (Update3)
By Greg Stohr
Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Supreme Court, siding with Democrats, freed Ohio officials from a lower court order that might have limited participation by new voters in next month's presidential election.
Today's ruling means Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner doesn't have to provide county election boards with lists of new registrants whose information doesn't match up with government databases. A federal trial judge had ordered Brunner, a Democrat, to supply the lists by today.
The Supreme Court said Republicans who sued Brunner ``are not sufficiently likely to prevail'' because the federal law they invoked doesn't authorize private suits. The two-page unsigned order was issued on behalf of the full court, without any published dissent.
Brunner said the judge's order could have affected as many as 200,000 Ohioans, potentially forcing them to cast provisional ballots instead of regular ballots. Democrats likely would have been disproportionately affected by the judge's order because of the party's efforts to register new voters this year.
Ohio is a crucial state for Republican presidential candidate John McCain in his race against Democrat Barack Obama. Without Ohio's 20 electoral votes, McCain would have to carry every other state that voted for George W. Bush in 2004, plus one that voted Democratic. Recent polls indicate Obama has pulled even or ahead in Ohio, a state Bush won by less than 118,000 votes four years ago.
Weeding Out Fraud
The Ohio Republican Party accused Brunner of ignoring her duty under a federal law to help weed out fraudulent registrations. The dispute was one of several fights that have made Ohio a center of legal controversy leading up to the Nov. 4 election.
McCain campaign manager Rick Davis in a statement said Brunner is seeking to ``minimize the level of fairness and transparency in this election.''
Brunner ``has fought at every opportunity the appeals of the people of the state and the county boards of election to provide an oversight of this election so it's done in a free, fair and open matter,'' said John McClelland, spokesman for the Ohio Republican Party.
Democrats hailed the ruling. The decision ``allows Ohio to move about the business of ensuring a free, fair, open and honest election without the threat of widespread voter suppression by the GOP,'' Ohio Democratic Party Chairman Chris Redfern said in a statement.
`Myriad Discrepancies'
Brunner was elected secretary of state in 2006. She succeeded Republican Ken Blackwell, who was the target of Democratic criticism leading up to the 2004 election.
Brunner said in court papers that preliminary analyses showed ``myriad discrepancies'' in voter information. ``Many of those discrepancies bear no relationship whatsoever to a voter's eligibility to vote a regular, as opposed to a provisional, ballot,'' she said.
Brunner said the mismatches ``may well be used at the county level unnecessarily to challenge fully qualified voters and severely disrupt the voting process.''
The Ohio Republican Party argued that the 2002 Help America Vote Act, known as HAVA, requires Brunner to share the mismatches with county boards so they can investigate potential fraud before counting votes.
Republicans faulted Brunner for her ``steadfast refusal to provide the HAVA `mismatch' data to the county boards of elections in a meaningful way.''
In its decision today, the Supreme Court said it wasn't addressing the underlying question about Brunner's duties under HAVA.
Court Order
The Cincinnati-based 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had upheld U.S. District Judge George C. Smith's order on a 9-6 vote.
More than 660,000 new voters registered in Ohio this year, many of them motivated by the chance to participate in the state's contested March 4 Democratic primary between Obama and New York Senator Hillary Clinton. While the state doesn't require party registration, Obama's aides say their party has a significant edge among new voters.
In Ohio and other states, would-be voters whose eligibility is in doubt can cast provisional ballots, which will count only if eventually validated by election officials.
The case is Brunner v. Ohio Republican Party, 07A332.
To contact the reporter on this story: Greg Stohr in Washington at gstohr@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: October 17, 2008 14:20 EDT
END OF REPORT
If I remember correctly in the 2004 Ohio election the number of polling places specifically in black neighborhoods had been decreased sufficiently that voters had to wait a long time, as it turned out, in the rain.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 17, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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There was fraud all right, but Acorn is the victim not the perpetrator. Acorn paid people, some of whom were not well-qualified, $8 an hour to register voters. These employees were not supervised. Some just filled out forms with random names (like the Dallas cowboy lineup) and charged Acorn for work they didn't do. There was no conspiracy for anyone to go and vote those registrations, and Acorn flagged most of them as fraudulent before turning them over to the registrars (as they are required to do.)
But if you are looking for a group engaging in a conspiracy to defraud the voters read this. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fraud18-2008oct18,0,1216330.story
McCain won't mention them because they're Republicans.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 06:59pm PT
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Who cares, anyway? I'm voting Diebold. I've heard they even let Canuckleheads vote. As long as they vote Republican, anyway.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 17, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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Premier Election Solutions = Diebold
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2008 - 07:32am PT
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Rox, Acorn now pays by the hour, as listed in the "facts" I posted from them earlier in this thread.
I hope everyone checks out Pagan's video. The electronic voting machines HAVE been used to cheat elections. That's part of the REAL emergency in voting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hUPP_bdOo
Look for a McCain win if he can get close enough to claim bradley effect
PEace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oct 18, 2008 - 10:29am PT
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Paganmonkeyboy that was a great link! All hail the whistle blowers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2008 - 10:42am PT
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And here's the thing, the "Acorn" accusations are a meaningless smokescreen for the real fraud, which won't be given due attention after the "Acorn" disinformation clouds people's awareness. This just in
from
http://www.gregpalast.com/rolling-stone-its-already-stolen
"Don’t worry about Mickey Mouse or ACORN stealing the election. According to an investigative report out today in Rolling Stone magazine, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Greg Palast, after a year-long investigation, reveal a systematic program of "GOP vote tampering" on a massive scale.
 Republican Secretaries of State of swing-state Colorado have quietly purged one in six names from their voter rolls.
Over several months, the GOP politicos in Colorado stonewalled every attempt by Rolling Stone to get an answer to the massive purge - ten times the average state's rate of removal.
While Obama dreams of riding to the White House on a wave of new voters, more then 2.7 million have had their registrations REJECTED under new procedures signed into law by George Bush.
Kennedy, a voting rights lawyer, charges this is a resurgence of 'Jim Crow' tactics to wrongly block Black and Hispanic voters.
A fired US prosecutor levels new charges - accusing leaders of his own party, Republicans, with criminal acts in an attempt to block legal voters as "fraudulent."
Digging through government records, the Kennedy-Palast team discovered that, in 2004, a GOP scheme called "caging” ultimately took away the rights of 1.1 million voters. The Rolling Stone duo predict that, this November 4, it will be far worse.
There's more:
Since the last presidential race, "States used dubious 'list management' rules to scrub at least 10 million voters from their rolls."
Among those was Paul Maez of Las Vegas, New Mexico - a victim of an unreported but devastating purge of voters in that state that left as many as one in nine Democrats without a vote. For Maez, the state's purging his registration was particularly shocking - he's the county elections supervisor."
One in six names purged in Colorado. Let's see what happens
the whole rolling stone article is here
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/23638322/block_the_vote
Peace
karl
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Jim E
climber
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Oct 18, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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President Obama will make sure the Attorney General investigates the voter fraud allegations thoroughly.
If there are any election results being contested Halliburton has offered up their private jets to the Democrat lawyers so they may fly back and forth to DC. It would have been Enron jets but apparently the liberals running that company ran it into the ground.
Never fear, the liberal stacked Supreme Court will deliver an unbiased ruling.
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