Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Novice climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2002 - 04:27pm PT
|
OK. I can appreciate your point that degradation is degradation. I'm not proposing a "rate limit". But . . . since degradation is directly related to use is directly related to the popularity/advertising associated with a climb, it seems to me that it is still relevant how fragile a cliff is in publicizing a climb that will degrade quickly. I don't nail up anything so my input is purely observational -- I have no self serving motive.
|
|
radical
Novice climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2002 - 05:30pm PT
|
There are so many climbs in so many places. More places and climbs than can be explored in a 100 lifetimes. Maybe it is time to leave a few places to the birds and the lichen.
|
|
Mr. L
Novice climber
|
|
|
Aug 29, 2002 - 09:31pm PT
|
As to this degradation rates argument that's been going on here, there is another factor: it's not just that through repeated nailing the placements widen faster on sandstone than they do on granite, but nailing on sandstone has a greater likelihood of creating cratered useless placements. Remember Mac asked if it was alright to do a FA if it might only hold 5-10 future ascents. I don't know if you can be sure about that. The placements might widen and go clean or they might become useless over time. Though I would worry that your beak seam might turn into a groove with heads and then a shallow groove with rivets next to it, I think that if it's a beautiful line it might be worth the risk.
|
|
Copperhead
Novice climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2002 - 12:37am PT
|
Trenching in sandstone??? That's cheating.
At least it's a lot of work in granite.
|
|
Copperhead
Novice climber
I like to nail...
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2002 - 01:55am PT
|
I don't think people climb a new line or not, based on weather it can sustain another 5 ascents or another 100 ascents (unless you are RO). Freshies are climbed because they are there and future ascents are irrelevant. I hate to think what the next ascent of 'The Hazing' will be like.
If subsequent ascentionists can climb the line in 'good style' then so be it. It is not a matter of respecting the rock; the rock doesn't give a sh#t if it gets scarred. It's a matter of respecting the route and those that follow.
|
|
Novice climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2002 - 02:07am PT
|
As long as you have a soft blanket, she should be ok.
|
|
Skully
Intermediate climber
Idaho
|
|
Nail all you want....Hell,that's what the gumby's are doing to our Valley......In 10,000 years who's gonna care?
|
|
Pile Driver
Novice climber
Iron Town
|
|
The impact of nailing is about human values and not the organic environment (carbon/H2O cycles and whatnot) If you can't climb it without nailing, might as well nail it since once you're 100 yards away from it, you can't tell anything happened there anyway.
I walked by a slab climb in the valley yesterday with a partner. I pointed out a route as we walked within 25 feet of it. He said "not many bolts on that one" I said, "Dude, there's 17 bolts on that climb!"
Naturally, we're part of a community and it's good to consider the local ethic as well
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Jan 17, 2003 - 12:36pm PT
|
Chris asked: "what do you think? is it ever cool to nail on sandstone?"
I think on especially the less traveled routes in Zion, thin pitons, when cleaned properly, are better than cam hooks.
On the trade routes that I've done, I've noticed some of the bomber nut and thin cam placements have been blown out by folks using cam hooks. Second aid pitch of Spaceshot, last aid pitch of Prodigal Sun, second pitch of Moonlight Buttress for example. Blown out placements are difficult to aid past, especially cleanly.
Piton cracks will get blown out. But, if always cleaned constructively, then there's at worse a nut placement, at best, a well configured feature for the first free ascent. Rather than the blown out pod where nothing will work.
Was bummed to see the supertopo's in the climbing rag list cam hooks as recommended gear.
Once a route goes "clean", should it really be off limits to drivin' iron? I don't know. Better style vs safety. I can see even thin nut placements gettin' blown out over time. And, with cams like Wild Country zero's getting smaller, chances for crack damage are reduced.
So, to answer the question, I'd say "yes". Not that I care to place 20 beaks in a row...
Brian in SLC
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
|
Jan 17, 2003 - 03:00pm PT
|
Has anyone used a #0 or #1 Zero Cam in soft sandstone? They are dicey as hell on granite in my inexperienced mitts. I'd be afraid that they'd dig right through.
Also, another question regarding sand stone aid ethics (I've only aided on granite)... Is in uncool to test pieces really hard on sandstone if the end result is digging up the rock? Just curious.
|
|
Miles
climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jan 17, 2003 - 07:01pm PT
|
I think nailing on sandstone is just as legitimate an activity as nailing on granite. In both cases, the rock is scarred, the difference being that it happens faster on sandstone. As long as pitons are cleaned with an eye toward eventually creating a nut/cam placement, I don't see a problem.
|
|
Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 01:15am PT
|
I don't see a problem with it.
Miles, do I know you from somewhere? Debries?
|
|
Miles
climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 01:32am PT
|
Yep, Jody, c'est moi.
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
slc
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 01:57am PT
|
I think it's ok to nail on sandstone as long as the route hasn't gone clean. Many cracks in Zion are deep enough so that constructive pin scaring (favoring upward blows) can lead to nut or small cam placements. For example, when Swoop Gimp was first done, the classic 2nd & 3rd pitch had a crack that was too thin to do clean, but now with pin scars the 2nd pitch does go clean WITHOUT CAM HOOKS. Some of the trade routes go clean because of this too.
I've done a lot of aid in Zion and have found that cam hooks are more harmful than pins because they don't deepen the crack, they just flare it. (perhaps fixed pins could be used for blown placements) Hopefully cam hooks will be left out of future supertopo gear lists for Zion trade routes.
Funny thing about Zion is that when you're there, the trade routes are crowded while LOTS of other worthy routes are not... many of these require nailing. Hopefully more clean 1st ascents will get done. (Ball & Chain now does).
Chris, it would be cool to see a list of hammerless Zion routes added to Supertopo...
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 11:38am PT
|
My first aid climb was in Zion. I remember getting through a clean aid crux with a #1 LoweBall. I've since heard that these are getting the same reputation as cam hooks in terms of their destructive nature on sandstone. It doesn't seem like it would be any worse than a small cam but I bow to those with more experience...
What do the sandstone experts think?
|
|
mike hartley
climber
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 01:58pm PT
|
Being an old fart climber it's surprising to me how little this debate has progressed in the last 25 years or so. In comparison to clear cutting, etc pin-scars, strings of copperheads with broken wires, and other "nailing techniques" are a non-issue. But there's no doubt that they are incredibly ugly up close and some would say represent a pattern of "if I want it I'll do whatever is necessary to get it" mentality. In my mind it would be interesting to see the results if the climbing community adopted the philosophy of:
1. The goal is to climb a route non-destructively. If a hammer is required then we admit that the goal of climbing the route clean has failed.
2. If a route won't go without a hammer what is the least destructive option? Even “constructive pin-scarring” is ugly. After thinking about this quite a bit the best option I can think of is to use Removable Bolts. Once drilled they visually do little to alter the route. In most rock (I haven’t used them in sandstone) little degradation occurs over time. If keeping a route challenging is your goal a ¼” RB is still damned exciting so its not like a bolt-ladder of 3/8” bolts. The larger sizes are quite strong. I’ve tested 3/8” ones in bad granite in a straight pull-out to 2000 lbs. Another nice thing about RB’s is that they don’t change the original crack so if techniques or equipment advance to where a truly clean ascent is possible (like the Shield headwall) the challenge remains intact for future climbers.
To me it would be a nice change to be on a wall and link natural features without miles of stuff that even hardened climbers call junk (busted rurps, pitons with the eyes broken off). Route finding could have a new dimension. Any thoughts?
|
|
mike hartley
climber
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2003 - 03:35pm PT
|
of course add dowel ladders to the "fixed junk" list.
|
|
Vinny
climber
Solana Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2003 - 06:38pm PT
|
Nailing on sandstone should'nt be taken for granite.
|
|
Joe Climber
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
A string of 20 beaks and 20 blades! Sounds beautiful. I say "beautiful" meaning not only the way the seam itself looks, the picture of the wall that you SEE. Some lines are aesthetically pleasing to look at. I also in this case mean that the thought of climbing such a line is beautiful. In sandstone, especially in thin seams, usually it is the removal that does the most damage to the rock. I say just remove carefully. Take a pair of vice grips to gently pull beaks straight out, damaging the rock very little compared to funking it out with your hammer. That said, nail responsibly, and keep the lines beautiful!
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael
|
|
Looks beautiful indeed! I'm think this is a photo of the route Chris is referring to. I was blown away when I saw a large print of this at IronWorks. A gorgeous photo by Jerry Dodrill.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!