Is it ever ok to nail on sandstone?

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Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member

Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 28, 2002 - 11:26pm PT

I have climbed two new routes in Zion. each one had the best nailing I had ever done. one pitch on Los Banditos had something like 20 beak placements and 20 blades (and two rivets) on an overhanging seam. it was euphoria!

But... those nailing intensive pitches will surely be trashed quickly (if anyone bothers to repeat them). Nailing placements in Zion just don't have much of a lifespan.

when i look back, I wonder if a route that can only hold 5-10 ascents is worth climbing.

what do you think? is it ever cool to nail on sandstone?

jim

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 12:45am PT

hmm....i thought you were the expert in this area. i guess i would have to say, if you value sandstone formations, or the opinions of people who do (if there are any sandstone lovers), then stay away from it. otherwise, sandstone is gonna be gone soon anyways right? its like stomping on a beautiful sandcastle, its bound to happen soon anyways. and how many sandstone routes turn into popular trad routes? im never climbing any of that crap, so do as much as you want.

Mr. L

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:33am PT

20 beaks and 20 blades? I know that you are a clean climbing aficionado so I trust they were necessary. Can you imagine any future clean climbing technology that would allow someone do that FA without beaks and blades? I can't. Maybe I lack imagination.

The analogy is not perfect (sandstone is diffferent in many ways from ganite), but the process that many nailing routes undergo on El Cap is just sped up on sandstone routes. Maybe those beak and blade placements will eventually become some nice clean placements, maybe they'll crater?

I like nailing on granite. Sometimes I do so when it's possible to make a clean placement (hmm.. A2 or C4..Bam), but because of the nature of sandstone I think there is a greater imperative to climb clean if it's at all possible. It sounds like it wasn't possible. It might not be cool, but I think it's definitely okay, and I'd like to hear more about the route.

DNA Man

Novice climber

Livermore Ca

Aug 29, 2002 - 04:31am PT

>Can you imagine any future clean climbing technology >that would allow someone do that FA without beaks >and blades? I can't. Maybe I lack imagination

Oh, how about a hanger the size of a watch, with a gecko foot like base? Tiny battery/circuitry causes fibers to stick to the rock on a molecular level.

Or a genetic blend of a limpet and a gecko, with a hanger shaped shell. After a few weeks it wanders off by itself and decomposes.

100 years ago nearly no one could fly and we burned whales for light.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 10:50am PT

Wow...look at Jim go. What a tough guy.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 11:09am PT

"sandstone is going to be gone anyway"? wow, there's some philosophical power. Suppose earth will be gone soon also, so vote Bush.

Mid Cal

Intermediate climber

los banos

Aug 29, 2002 - 11:14am PT

Well, Chris, I guess that depends on your sensitivity to the environment vs. your desire for the climb. It's true that eventually the formations will erode away to nothing but we'll be taking dirt naps by that time, so who cares, right? I haven't climbed everything else that you have so I don't feel the need to go explore new routes, there's plenty left for me, so I wouldn't do it.

Will

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 12:54pm PT

To me, it is all a question of whether the line is worth it. It is a tough call without seeing the line, but I would trust Chris Mac's judgment on this one.

Most first ascents in Zion, Fisher Towers, El Cap etc... required some nailing and bolt placement. The bottom line is in order for some formations to be climbed pitons and bolts will have to be used. (Pending DNA man's technologic advancements of course...)

Any route that begins as a nailing route will under go a metamorphosis or sorts. It has been said before on this thread that this process happens much more quickly on Sandstone than Granite. Five or six ascents from now this new line will probably have a much different character.

While I don't like it, this metamorphosis is part of climbing. All climbing changes the rock to some degree. Incredible Hand Crack and Supercrack are getting larger because so many people climb them. Reed's Direct in Yose can be spotted from a mile away because of it's white polish.

If the line is worth it, my feeling is to have a go. If the line doesn't look that great, don't just do it so that a first ascent can occur. Not everything needs to be climbed.

eminoh

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:05pm PT

Be cognisant of travel impact and dicide with an unselfish mind whether a project is meritorius to our collective world. Could its ascent enrich the lives of enough (?) climbers and others hearing of or repeating the ascent? Recycle. Buy recycled products. Contribute to green organizations and causes. Do as much as reasonably possible to keep the earth in good shape. But stay off the walls beacause there will be traces of our having been there? Never go off the trail because footprints might be left? Think and act conservationally, but not at the expense of personal adventure.

eminoh

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:25pm PT

Be cognizant of travel impact and decide with an unselfish mind whether an ascent's impact and projected longevity negate its benefit to the collective world. Will it's ascent enrich the lives of enough (?) climbers and others hearing of or repeating the ascent?

Recycle. Buy recycled products. Contribute to green organizations and causes. Do everything reasonably (?) possible to keep the earth in good shape. But stay off the walls because we might leave traces of our passing? Leave that perfect powder slope trackless because it's more beautiful untouched? Never hike off trail because footprints might be left there?

Change is the inevitable process. Granite, sandstone, ice, snow -- all our adventure mediums -- have different characteristics of longevity/durability. Consider others' experience and think/act conservatively wherever traveling, but keep pursuing adventure.

eminoh

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:27pm PT

Of course I'm new at this.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:28pm PT

There are are just too many of us in the world generally, and in the world of climbing, to without selfish egocentrism suggest that personal adventure outweighs conservation per Eminoh.

On the other hand (and I'm an aid moron so correct me if wrong), after a few ascents, perhaps additional nailing won't be relevant anymore and it will go clean, markedly reducing the additional impact after that? Actual environmental impact is probably minimal also if its off the beaten track? Maybe then it's OK.

Think Serenity Crack-- damage done, but no more occuring. Was it worth it from the start? I don't know, but its a wonderful climb now and further impact is minimal. It still feels a bit like guilty pleasure though.

Jeepers

Novice climber

Fisher Towers

Aug 29, 2002 - 01:44pm PT

Creative scarring is an option, with an eye toward eventual HAFWEN condition. Reminds me of the question how many bolts are justified on a new line?

As far as nailing cr@p lines, I think that's the best place to do it.

Jeep

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 03:01pm PT

I've got no problem with nailing on existing crack/seams, etc... It would be highly hypocritical to say its OK on granite but not sandstone.

But what I really have a problem with is the practice of "trenching" copperhead placements on the harder aid routes in the desert, especially the Fishers. For a good discussion of this issue see:

http://www.climbingmoab.com/rock/db/fisher_towers/cottontail_tower/intifada.html

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 03:24pm PT

why is it hypocritical to distinguish sandstone and granite? Is it also hypocritical to say that shitting in the ocean is unlike shitting in small oasis in the desert?

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 03:36pm PT

Nice try, but bad analogy my friend.

A more apt analogy to granite vs. sandstone nailing would be shitting on the beach and shitting in the ocean. It may take a little bit longer, but yeah, that shits still going to end up in the ocean.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 03:39pm PT

Let's try again friend. You say that the relative degradation rates of granite and sandstone are not relevant to the discussion on nailing. Assuming that degradation of the rock is the issue here, why are degradation rates not important? If my assumption is incorrect, i.e., you do not believe that degradation of the rock is important, then we can end the discussion.

leadbonesjones

Novice climber

California

Aug 29, 2002 - 04:01pm PT

I appreciate your candor in the ethical question of nailing on sandstone climbs. Stoney Point, Los Angeles, is a testament to the destructiveness of pitons in soft sandstone. Most of the freeclimbing holds are piton scars, enhance holds or outright chipped routes. Stoney is a great bouldering area but not very aesthetic.

I think your exploration of new routes is acceptable if you consider the long term impact of your actions. My suggestion is to keep new nailing routes, in environmentally sensitive areas such as Zion, to yourself. A Supertopo or other route information about your new nailing routes would turn a beautiful climb into another Stoney Point.

A few years ago a friend, W.H., added two new routes on the El Captain. He did not provide detailed information on the routes. His vague description and sandbag beta left subsequent ascents to only the most adventurous and committed climbers.

P.S. Thanks Chris for the great photo of the North Dome Gully descent. It saved my partner and I a major epic on the descent. Your valuable photo also saved the delicate ground cover that would have been damaged or destroyed if we had lost our way.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 04:04pm PT

Well, what then is your proposed "degradation rate limit" for nailing? Apparently, that limit is somewhere between that for granite and sandstone. Very convenient... you can still go nail away on the Captain while proudly proclaiming your environmental sensitivity by condemning nailing on sandstone.

I don't know what to say... nailing on granite scars the rock; nailing on sandstone scars the rock. I think drawing the line between the two is hypocritcal at worst, self-serving at best.

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 04:07pm PT

...the last post was in response to the post before leadbonesjones

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 04:27pm PT

OK. I can appreciate your point that degradation is degradation. I'm not proposing a "rate limit". But . . . since degradation is directly related to use is directly related to the popularity/advertising associated with a climb, it seems to me that it is still relevant how fragile a cliff is in publicizing a climb that will degrade quickly. I don't nail up anything so my input is purely observational -- I have no self serving motive.

radical

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 05:30pm PT

There are so many climbs in so many places. More places and climbs than can be explored in a 100 lifetimes. Maybe it is time to leave a few places to the birds and the lichen.

Mr. L

Novice climber

Aug 29, 2002 - 09:31pm PT

As to this degradation rates argument that's been going on here, there is another factor: it's not just that through repeated nailing the placements widen faster on sandstone than they do on granite, but nailing on sandstone has a greater likelihood of creating cratered useless placements. Remember Mac asked if it was alright to do a FA if it might only hold 5-10 future ascents. I don't know if you can be sure about that. The placements might widen and go clean or they might become useless over time. Though I would worry that your beak seam might turn into a groove with heads and then a shallow groove with rivets next to it, I think that if it's a beautiful line it might be worth the risk.

Copperhead

Novice climber

Aug 30, 2002 - 12:37am PT

Trenching in sandstone??? That's cheating.

At least it's a lot of work in granite.

Copperhead

Novice climber

I like to nail...

Aug 30, 2002 - 01:55am PT

I don't think people climb a new line or not, based on weather it can sustain another 5 ascents or another 100 ascents (unless you are RO). Freshies are climbed because they are there and future ascents are irrelevant. I hate to think what the next ascent of 'The Hazing' will be like.

If subsequent ascentionists can climb the line in 'good style' then so be it. It is not a matter of respecting the rock; the rock doesn't give a sh#t if it gets scarred. It's a matter of respecting the route and those that follow.

Novice climber

Aug 30, 2002 - 02:07am PT

As long as you have a soft blanket, she should be ok.

Skully

Intermediate climber

Idaho

Sep 2, 2002 - 01:22am PT

Nail all you want....Hell,that's what the gumby's are doing to our Valley......In 10,000 years who's gonna care?

Pile Driver

Novice climber

Iron Town

Sep 2, 2002 - 02:53am PT

The impact of nailing is about human values and not the organic environment (carbon/H2O cycles and whatnot) If you can't climb it without nailing, might as well nail it since once you're 100 yards away from it, you can't tell anything happened there anyway.

I walked by a slab climb in the valley yesterday with a partner. I pointed out a route as we walked within 25 feet of it. He said "not many bolts on that one" I said, "Dude, there's 17 bolts on that climb!"

Naturally, we're part of a community and it's good to consider the local ethic as well

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Jan 17, 2003 - 12:36pm PT

Chris asked: "what do you think? is it ever cool to nail on sandstone?"

I think on especially the less traveled routes in Zion, thin pitons, when cleaned properly, are better than cam hooks.

On the trade routes that I've done, I've noticed some of the bomber nut and thin cam placements have been blown out by folks using cam hooks. Second aid pitch of Spaceshot, last aid pitch of Prodigal Sun, second pitch of Moonlight Buttress for example. Blown out placements are difficult to aid past, especially cleanly.

Piton cracks will get blown out. But, if always cleaned constructively, then there's at worse a nut placement, at best, a well configured feature for the first free ascent. Rather than the blown out pod where nothing will work.

Was bummed to see the supertopo's in the climbing rag list cam hooks as recommended gear.

Once a route goes "clean", should it really be off limits to drivin' iron? I don't know. Better style vs safety. I can see even thin nut placements gettin' blown out over time. And, with cams like Wild Country zero's getting smaller, chances for crack damage are reduced.

So, to answer the question, I'd say "yes". Not that I care to place 20 beaks in a row...

Brian in SLC

Melissa

Big Wall climber

oakland, ca

Jan 17, 2003 - 03:00pm PT

Has anyone used a #0 or #1 Zero Cam in soft sandstone? They are dicey as hell on granite in my inexperienced mitts. I'd be afraid that they'd dig right through.

Also, another question regarding sand stone aid ethics (I've only aided on granite)... Is in uncool to test pieces really hard on sandstone if the end result is digging up the rock? Just curious.

Miles

climber

San Francisco, CA

Jan 17, 2003 - 07:01pm PT

I think nailing on sandstone is just as legitimate an activity as nailing on granite. In both cases, the rock is scarred, the difference being that it happens faster on sandstone. As long as pitons are cleaned with an eye toward eventually creating a nut/cam placement, I don't see a problem.

Jody

Mountain climber

San Luis Obispo County, CA

Jan 18, 2003 - 01:15am PT

I don't see a problem with it.

Miles, do I know you from somewhere? Debries?

Miles

climber

San Francisco, CA

Jan 18, 2003 - 01:32am PT

Yep, Jody, c'est moi.

More Air

Big Wall climber

slc

Jan 18, 2003 - 01:57am PT

I think it's ok to nail on sandstone as long as the route hasn't gone clean. Many cracks in Zion are deep enough so that constructive pin scaring (favoring upward blows) can lead to nut or small cam placements. For example, when Swoop Gimp was first done, the classic 2nd & 3rd pitch had a crack that was too thin to do clean, but now with pin scars the 2nd pitch does go clean WITHOUT CAM HOOKS. Some of the trade routes go clean because of this too.

I've done a lot of aid in Zion and have found that cam hooks are more harmful than pins because they don't deepen the crack, they just flare it. (perhaps fixed pins could be used for blown placements) Hopefully cam hooks will be left out of future supertopo gear lists for Zion trade routes.

Funny thing about Zion is that when you're there, the trade routes are crowded while LOTS of other worthy routes are not... many of these require nailing. Hopefully more clean 1st ascents will get done. (Ball & Chain now does).

Chris, it would be cool to see a list of hammerless Zion routes added to Supertopo...

David

Trad climber

San Rafael

Jan 18, 2003 - 11:38am PT

My first aid climb was in Zion. I remember getting through a clean aid crux with a #1 LoweBall. I've since heard that these are getting the same reputation as cam hooks in terms of their destructive nature on sandstone. It doesn't seem like it would be any worse than a small cam but I bow to those with more experience...

What do the sandstone experts think?

mike hartley

climber

Jan 18, 2003 - 01:58pm PT

Being an old fart climber it's surprising to me how little this debate has progressed in the last 25 years or so. In comparison to clear cutting, etc pin-scars, strings of copperheads with broken wires, and other "nailing techniques" are a non-issue. But there's no doubt that they are incredibly ugly up close and some would say represent a pattern of "if I want it I'll do whatever is necessary to get it" mentality. In my mind it would be interesting to see the results if the climbing community adopted the philosophy of:
1. The goal is to climb a route non-destructively. If a hammer is required then we admit that the goal of climbing the route clean has failed.
2. If a route won't go without a hammer what is the least destructive option? Even “constructive pin-scarring” is ugly. After thinking about this quite a bit the best option I can think of is to use Removable Bolts. Once drilled they visually do little to alter the route. In most rock (I haven’t used them in sandstone) little degradation occurs over time. If keeping a route challenging is your goal a ¼” RB is still damned exciting so its not like a bolt-ladder of 3/8” bolts. The larger sizes are quite strong. I’ve tested 3/8” ones in bad granite in a straight pull-out to 2000 lbs. Another nice thing about RB’s is that they don’t change the original crack so if techniques or equipment advance to where a truly clean ascent is possible (like the Shield headwall) the challenge remains intact for future climbers.

To me it would be a nice change to be on a wall and link natural features without miles of stuff that even hardened climbers call junk (busted rurps, pitons with the eyes broken off). Route finding could have a new dimension. Any thoughts?

mike hartley

climber

Jan 18, 2003 - 03:35pm PT

of course add dowel ladders to the "fixed junk" list.

Vinny

climber

Solana Beach, CA

Jan 27, 2003 - 06:38pm PT

Nailing on sandstone should'nt be taken for granite.

Joe Climber

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

Feb 7, 2003 - 07:59am PT

A string of 20 beaks and 20 blades! Sounds beautiful. I say "beautiful" meaning not only the way the seam itself looks, the picture of the wall that you SEE. Some lines are aesthetically pleasing to look at. I also in this case mean that the thought of climbing such a line is beautiful. In sandstone, especially in thin seams, usually it is the removal that does the most damage to the rock. I say just remove carefully. Take a pair of vice grips to gently pull beaks straight out, damaging the rock very little compared to funking it out with your hammer. That said, nail responsibly, and keep the lines beautiful!

David

Trad climber

San Rafael

Feb 7, 2003 - 11:31am PT

Looks beautiful indeed! I'm think this is a photo of the route Chris is referring to. I was blown away when I saw a large print of this at IronWorks. A gorgeous photo by Jerry Dodrill.

clustiere

Big Wall climber

Running Springs

Oct 24, 2003 - 10:21pm PT

yummy

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Oct 24, 2003 - 11:23pm PT

Pretty darn sweet!

Yup, and even better to drill on...

thebravecowboy

climber

my pals call me Shackleton

Mar 5, 2015 - 09:59pm PT

a genetic blend of a limpet and a gecko, with a hanger shaped shell. After a few weeks it wanders off by itself and decomposes.

alright we're well into the future, now where is my #3 limpet-gecko?

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Mar 6, 2015 - 01:02am PT

Bump of the century award!

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Mar 6, 2015 - 02:18am PT

do whatever you want, life is short, and humans will be gone from the earth in another thousand years do to warming or global conflict,

Dickly

Social climber

Mar 6, 2015 - 05:21am PT

do whatever you want, life is short, and humans will be gone from the earth in another thousand years do to warming or global conflict,

But whatever you do dont clean up and bolt some unknown pitch of climbing in S AZ that hasnt been done for 20 years. Having fun is not cool at all.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Mar 6, 2015 - 05:29am PT

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Mar 6, 2015 - 07:23am PT

Ha ha ha, Skip for the win!

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Mar 8, 2016 - 11:12am PT

having assembled a vast stack of limpet-geckos, articulated chocks and micro-sized chocks, and the like, I gotta say, I bought some Tomahawks and I am pretty excited about that hammer.

So yes, I have reached that sad sad point of desperation where I am convincing myself that it is indeed acceptable to nail sandstone. yikes.

Reeotch

climber

4 Corners Area

Mar 8, 2016 - 12:26pm PT

Sandstone should be nailed thoughtfully, with the admission that you are creating a clean placement.
Some FAs have to be nailed, but those routes only have so many nailed ascents in them.

TokerVillan would know . . .