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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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John...Eldo, the Gunks, Yosemite amd almost every other so-called trad area has issues and big ones.
Bolts are a very small part of the equation.
Todd...great post. Hitting the nail on the head several times.
John...you seem so tickled pink by the effort of the Facelift...that type of effort has been happening in the SLV and Shelf Rd for over 20 years.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 12, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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Bob, I don't agree with your assertion that "bolts are a very small part of the equation," they are some of the most apparent alterations that climbers make of the rock which are noticed by non-climbers.
My wife, who doesn't climb but has been around climbing nearly as long as I have, doesn't understand why we are allowed to bolt in wilderness areas (or any area) and continually asks me why we bolt at all. To her, it is an unnecessary alteration which should not be tolerated. Second only to "gardening" lines on FAs, it is the quickest way to a heated debate in my household.
Since pin scaring was eliminated by "new" equipment and the transformation of the community to it's use, bolts have been the last sanctioned, intentional modification of the natural landscape climbers have tolerated. The whole issue has revolved around where to draw the line, just how many bolts are acceptable? How easy should it be to put them in? Should they be allowed at all? Land use managers have meetings over this...
Bolting is a very large issue.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 11:07am PT
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Ed...it 's the human equation. chalk parking, trail erosion etc...are way bigger issues in Eldo, the Gunks and Yosemite than bolts. A lot of sling anchors in Eldo have been replaced by....bolt anchors which have a less visual impact that slings.
It really the human equation and how we deal with issues when they arise. Cars driving to and from the Gunks and the Valley on a weekly basis would seem to be a bigger environmental issue than bolts on a wall.
Ed...what does your wife like to do for recreation??
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 11:35am PT
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Bob, you can't define the issue away. Read the comments.
Conservation efforts exist in almost all areas and deserve everyone's support. In order for these to exist people have to work together and compromise. Which poses a huge question. Since people are so able to work together and compromise
how is it we even have a bolting problem?
How?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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Hold it there Ed,
pin scarring eliminated? Since when?
Hammering on aid routes is far more insidious than bolting, generally a one time alteration, because of its progressive and cumulative nature. In the end it could alter more rock than drills.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 12, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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It seems to be Jump on Bob Time right now.
I guess you've been here before.
I have one to add to your growing list of questions.
I could be wrong, but places like Shelf Road, seem fairly focused in terms of appetite to sport climbers and sport bolting. So that appears to be, for the most part, appropriately a designated sport area in terms of terrain and inclination. (Perhaps someone like John Bachar would have preferred to do those routes ground up, but I'm thinking that's the outside case). I'm sure nobody is stopping anybody from bolting ground up at Shelf Road, so an even more strict example to top down only is the Flatirons of Boulder.
As an example to the opposite, is the Pinnacles of California, which is subject to trad bolting only. Also currently on that side of the fence, the trad fence, even though its private property, is the Gunks, with no new bolting whatsoever.
My question(s) Bob:
Some areas are currently mixed sport and trad; while other areas are distinctly one or the other.
Can you see leaving areas as limited to strictly trad bolting or even no bolts? As a sport bolter, do you believe that is a fair concession in certain instances? Or do you believe that there is no area which should be closed to sport bolting? (leaving the private property situation out for the moment).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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John wrote: how is it we even have a bolting problem?
How?
We have climbing issues John...and bolts are a part of them.
Sorry you can't see that.
Tar...yes...simple enough??
Funny that I am getting interrogated by John when in the last 25 years I been a pro-active climber when it came to access, trail work, bolt and anchor replacement and other issues dealing with the climbing community. I was the first coordinator for Celebrate Eldorado, serve on ACE, volunteer of the year for the state of Colorado for the BLM in 1992 and to this day continue to do real world work on climbing issues.
John...I asked you a number of questions that you will not respond to.
What sport and trad-climbing areas have you been too in the last 15 years and what have you done to help access and climbing issues?
Tar wrote: It seems to be Jump on Bob Time right now.
I guess you've been here before.
Yes I have and it is usually the arm chair quarterbacks who make the biggest noise.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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No Bob. If people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem.
I will repeat what I said above. Through their support of conservation efforts climbers generally have shown their willingness to compromise and to work together.
So why is there a bolting problem?
Ron:
Your point is entirely valid IMO. Where pinning has continued, for whatever reason, the climbers in an area have a choice to make. They should include bolts as one candidate technology, if technology is thought to be the answer. As always, the specific situation which the people will take into consideration, should guide their choice. But that decision needs to be broadly based.
In the early seventies before improved nuts came out I was so bold as to ASK if it were possible we needed to redefine where on the rock it might be necessary for us not to go any longer. The times were so painful I sensed the question was actually being asked. Better equipment then came out and later even better new kinds came out, thereby relieving us of the necessity to choose such a thing. No one was more relieved than myself.
But people did begin to ask this question. Asking it required both courage and discipline.
Edit:
Clean up of points.
Grid bolting:
Go back up to my edit on the point raised by Ed. That's what I think grid bolting is.
What have I done:
After my efforts on the east coast during the sixties and the seventies I retired.
Do you require some sort of status in the climbing world before you will listen to someone? Examine yourself. If so this is a deadly failing.
Why do I pick on you:
Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world. Read above. At the same time you persist in saying there is no problem where you are getting a lot of comments insisting there is a problem. Are we to presume this is the behavior characteristic of a leader?
I am suggesting the primary characteristic of a leader should be their willingness to follow. A leader who does not listen is entirely limited by their personal weaknesses and may well lead to failure. Just look about you to see the evidence for this.
Our task here is to make you a better leader. You can do it, if you will but listen.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 12, 2008 - 01:06pm PT
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Has anyone here NOT established routes ??
Now you guys are being silly.
This is a debate, and a pretty good one, I sorta think.
There are different opinions about this. I just
find it interesting that some won't even acknowlege
the other sides point.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Who would we ask? Those who think their opinion matters? They are usually the ones who are not climbing.
Great post Todd.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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"Those who think their opinion matters."
We may, finally, have reached the heart of the bolting problem.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 12, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Tomcat,
Even the bolted anchors in the Gunks have created problems. There is an epidemic of toproping at what is arguably the most trad friendly crag imaginable.
Your choice of the word "epidemic" is peculiar. It does not help to answer any questions because it connotes a disease.
FWIW. The Gunks are crowded. Yesterday - (Sunday, if you frequent the area, you know what that means), I was able to lead Jackie and Classic. (Bolts to preserve the tree there.)
We first did Jackie (actually, after Horseman), even though we went there for Classic, because it became free while a second took a very long time following her leader on Classic. My partner was able to dispatch Jackie, cleaning my gear, quickly as we hoped to do Classic as soon as they finished. In the mean time, a party showed up and jumped on Classic as she was climbing Jackie. So instead of rapping off, she lowered and quickly climbed a variation of Jasmine/Jackie (to avoid conflict with the new Classic leader). I then TR'ed Jasmine and rapped off.
We returned and got Classic a bit later.
All of this occurred on a Sunday (think really busy), precisely because those bolts made it fairly simple to coexist happily there. Certainly the Classic tree is better off.
Most of the true top-roping routes have no bolts - At this time I can't even think of one - but there might be some.
So maybe "cure" is better description than "epidemic"!
Consider also the reduction in time spent building anchors. I think many trad climbers would actually like to see more bolted anchors, if for no other reason than being able to speed up the process, effectively getting more climbing traffic (less waiting time) on a limited resource.
:-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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So, Wes, it's your idea that a 'tyranny of democracy' - made up almost entirely of people who are only able to define themselves as 'climbers' because of wholly bolted lines - should be able to define climbing? And that new definition should be risk-free entertainment at the expense of rock?
Because that is what you claiming and it will be the exact same argument used down the road to install via ferratas in climbing areas so everyone can be a 'climber'.
Personally, I consider it pandering, not leadership.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 12, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
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TIG.Most of my Gunks climbing took place in the eighties.I've been there once,twice or three times each year of late.I would have to stand by my statement,an epidemic of toproping.
Used to be(I know,I know)just about no one toproped right of the Uberfall.Now people camp on everything.We actually come to see the show as much as climb.I will cite the following recent incidents and try to do so without prejudice.
We start up Frogs Head,after waiting for the second of two Canadians to get to the ledge.They are maxxed,so I step left and make a gear anchor to stay out of their hair.The leader is sketching on those first moves off the ledge and the belayer has the rope wrapped all around himself.We wait.I tell Tradchick we will just slide onto the bolt anchor after they leave,so she can sit back.Not so fast.A guide,complete with monogrammed polo shirt has been toproping City Lights,yep,on Sunday,and decided to move his anchor over to the right of us.He states he is planning to construct an independant gear anchor.He climbs behind us,can't make an anchor and leashes into the bolt anchor instead while explaining how we are not affected.Good of him,he then pulls all his rope across us.Now he has one of those u shaped constructs going.We are outta there.
We trudge down to Never Never Land.A threesome has a toprope going,five hours later we return,they are still on it.One person led one route here.Three in party.
We'll just finish our day on Sente.There is a party toproping Thin Slabs Direct.They are unable to do the route.The guy is basically just burning rubber while mumbling about his shoes.Upon discovering they can not climb this 5.7,they slide over onto Sente as soon as we pass.They can't climb that either.
We climb City Lights and finish up Pas de Deux.The anchor is taken so I just belay off gear,but would like to rap when they are through.Before they clear that anchor a guy all full of bristle thrashes in from another climb and starts threading the anchor,which is again,in use,and we are pretty clearly next on.Some words ensue.
One thing I have learned TiG.Gunkies tend to view climbing in the Gunks perspective.You are accustomed to this sort of thing.We found that it was impossible to plan a day of climbing there anymore,as people get on routes routinely for half a day.That only happens with toproping.We spent twenty minutes doing Sente,maybe forty on NNL.
Appears that the big thing with the bolt anchors are those two route loops.Used to be you could go all weekend and not see a toprope right of Ken's Crack.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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John wrote: Why do I pick on you:
Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world. Read above. At the same time you persist in saying there is no problem where you are getting a lot of comments insisting there is a problem. Are we to presume this is the behavior characteristic of a leader?
What are you eight years old?? I didn't say you picked on me.
And can you read what I write?? I said there was CLIMBING ISSUES and bolting is one of the issues.
You have no ideas what the real issues are sport areas as you have been so far out the loop for so long. Even back in the day you were against bolts...nothing has change in your world of climbing but much has in mine. You have done nothing to address these problems other than wank on the internet.
To me John...Actions in the climbing world speak louder than words.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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Jstan, you say that as soon as you place the first bolt that's when the problems start. What a load of Crap!
Change that to as soon as the word gets arround that there is good climbing to be had, Now that is when the problems start. The bolts have very little to do with it. I have been to pleanty of trad areas that are trashed with social trails and human caused erosion that is 100 times more noticeable than any bolts... I have been to sport areas that have decent trail systems and erosion control.The bolts are more of a clash of styles problem than an enviro problem....
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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May 12, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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from John Bachar
to* ,
dateMon, May 12, 2008 at 11:12 AM
subjectRe: Trad climb?'s
mailed-byacopausa.com
hide details 11:12 AM (2 hours ago) Reply
Maybe. The ST is a big mess most of the time but there might
come something one of these days.
jb
On May 12, 2008, at 8:33 AM, * wrote:
What about posting this in a relevant thread when found?
On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 2:59 PM, John Bachar wrote:
On May 10, 2008, at 10:51 AM, * lawbes@gmail.com wrote:
Good morning John,
came across this. Looks like TBY on Medlicott? Who's having fun (falling)?
/*Edited to reduce redundancy. */
[img]
[/img]
Do you know the name of the 5.10(b) equivalent? I forgot the
name though I think the route is also on Medlicott? Another Ron
not Kauk wrote a article about the 2 routes that was published
in the late 80's in R&I or another magazine I purchased. I think
his name was Ron Olevesky? I can't remember if you put up the
5.10(b) also?
John wrote:
Not Ron Olevsky. Alan Nelson did, Kurt Smith, Steve
Schneider...I can't remember.
Bryce wrote: I think the article was about Ron O doing the route
(s)...I can't either.
John wrote:
"You Asked for It" is 10b/c X. Three pitches, not many people do
this route - a fall on the last move (10b) of the second pitch
would equal a 140 feet screamer into a big ledge and sure death.
Bryce wrote:
Thank's, that's it now I remember the route name and.
It was late afternoon when I On-Sight Red Pointed the Dike
Route. It was my partners choice to pick the climb. I thought
he was going to choose the one I asked about above.
This is my interpretation of Red Point.
Lead from the ground up and leader leads every pitch without
a fall with full completion of the climb.
John wrote:
You got it - he places all gear as well (unless it's been bolted).
Bryce wrote:
This is my interpretation of On Sight. You have never attempted
or pre-rehearsed the route prior to climbing it. It's probably
not fair to say never seen the route prior to climbing it.
John wrote:
You got that as well.
Cheers, JB
midarockjock
--
Bryce Sawin
**
This email transmission may consist of
privileged attorney client work and or non
communicative privileged information.
If you have received this email in error,
translating to your email address is not
included in the message, immediately
forward to the sender and delete any
copies of the transmission.
*
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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"We may, finally, have reached the heart of the bolting problem."
Your right John. We should let the "extreme" top ropers from out of state, and climbers from prior generations sitting in their armchairs tell those folks lacing up and getting ready to drill right now how, where and what to bolt.
The issue, (not "problem"), is geographical. Rock type, and local say determines how it is handled.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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Atc wrote:Your right John. We should let the "extreme" top ropers from out of state, and climbers from prior generations sitting in their armchairs tell those folks lacing up and getting ready to drill right now how, where and what to bolt.
The issue, (not "problem"), is geographical. Rock type, and local say determines how it is handled.
Correct and to the point.
It is also about control...I didn't do it in the Gunks so no one should be doing it anywhere else.
John wrote: Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world.
No John...I am presenting myself as a rock climber who has been ACTIVE in climbing issues for the last 30 years.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 12, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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Tomcat,
It is not the 80's any more. I wasn't climbing back then. But for what you want, to plan to climb route x, y, and z, you will have to go there during the week. Even then it may not happen. It is just too busy. Giving exceptional examples of "bad" behavior does not bolster your "epidemic of top-roping" argument.
But you do point out a problem. It is busy. Consider it a road. There are two ways to get more traffic on a busy road. Build more lanes or raise the speed limit.
Adding bolts could do both.
Increase the average speed
I could have climbed Classic significantly faster if all I needed were a few quick-draws and the bolts were close enough that gear issues and falling weren't part of the lead equation. In a sense that roughly 90 foot climb already has 3 bolts - fixed pins. But the gear opportunities are spread out. There are a couple spots were not only is the gear well below, but the moves are thin. Protect those moves with a bolt, and I climb that almost as fast as a TR. Seconds climb faster as well. When I climbed Classic, I actually had to stop for about 5 minutes to clean a nut that some guide had left behind - his client could not clean. My follower had to clean gear - though my nut in the same place was easy, I can't claim that all of my gear ever cleans as fast as a quick-draw.
More lanes
Some routes share anchor locations. Bolting could not only eliminate this, but even allow for anchors where there are no gear placements. Again, this wall is a good example. Jasmine and Classy share the wall, but are almost never done.
Top-roping is really part of the solution
To the extent that demand has increased, easy TR's can put people on stuff that other-wise would not be acceptable, e.g. climbs that are just plain X other-wise. Even Williams points out climbs that are only recommended as TR routes.
In that category, you have perfect examples of routes that really demand TRs. Sure Boston is 5.4G, except that nobody carries 5 and 6 inch cams on a Gunks rack. So it is really a TR (X) route. Somebody died the day before I backed off that route when I found out the 4 inch cam - most don't have that size either - could not be placed at all in there.
Finally, of course, there is that inescapable and paradoxical truth, that the more accessible something is the more it is accessed. It holds true for roads as well.
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