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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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The only route I chopped, and it wasn't so much a chop as unscrewing the hangers was a route at Summit Rock across from Castle Rock in the Santa Cruz mountains. It actually required pulling the hangers twice to send the message.
Some of the formation was maybe 1/2 rope length high, but there were plenty of boulders around. There was this one slab maybe, maybe 15' high, that had a large horn on the top a good 2' high and well over a foot in dia. Somebody had placed not one but two bolts on the thing to "lead" it, and two more to belay from. It was like a 5.7 boulder problem, If you had to use rope a rope for it, this could have been easily accomplished by just wrapping a sling around the massive horn and top roping it. The base was completely flat, so risk of tweaked ankles on a bad landing.
It was at that point that I realized for some of these "climbers", the "first ascent" really wasn't what it wasabout, nor the route, nor even climbing. These people were little more than dogs urinating on a post to mark their teritory, and their "routes" were little more than an effort to leave their mark on the world.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John wrote: bob - Not many if any at all 13c routes have been done that I know of - they all got rap bolted. No one gave the ground up guys a chance.
John...I still do ground up and top down. Still a lot of new rock even in a place like Boulder Canyon...the so called traddies just seem to be their own worst enemy...a lot are good at complaining...but not doing.
Joe...go do a cutting edge new route and then come back and talk. The level you are climbing at was reached 30-40 years ago. As to risk...the r and x rated routes never had waiting lines...even 20-30 years ago.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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John Bachar.
Free Soloist.
Boot Guy.
Fascist.
Geez Werner!
What a Buzz buster you are.
At least he tried.
You know; standard bargaining procedure.
Ask for the world and settle for a little less...
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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weschrist said-
"I think the "just don't clip the bolts and we won't place bolts closer than..." preserves your adrenaline rush."
It's not about the adrenaline rush.
For me and other first ascensionists, it's about having some rock to do first ascents (the most challenging type of climbing I've encountered over all these years). If it doesn't matter to rap bolters "how" the bolts got in, why not let a bunch of dumb first ascent guys risk life and limb to do it ground up. The top downers can add bolts later so the general public can feel safe and have fun and get better at "free climbing" and all that other good stuff. The ground up first ascent dude gets what he wants - a chance to pit his will and might against the unknown.
I've climbed all styles, techniques, etc. on rock and the two most enjoyable things I've ever really liked are doing "on-sight, ground up, first ascents" and "free soloing". I can free solo tons of stuff and still get my groove on but on-sight ground-up first ascents are hard to come by.
Why not give a brother a chance?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"But it is only a bolt after all, hardly the eye sore others would have to (have had to) see when someone craters."
Let me try visualizing that one...
Pools of bloody, pounded flesh and bones - or bolts. Given we aren't talking whales washed up on beaches, that's a pretty powerful image. And quite an easy choice, too. I'd have to consult with Tar (who seems to have his fingers on an amazing breadth of visual and factual climbing history) to see if that wasn't the Powerpoint deck that convinced Boulder of the need to institute draconian down-bolting measures on the Flatirons, but I wouldn't doubt it if it was.
So, we're talking bolts in their savior role here (or is that you for sinking them), protecting people from their own judgment. Or is the point of bolts also to protect us from the disturbing aesthetic consequences of other climbers' bad judgment? Clearly I'm not up to speed on all the many safety attributes of bolts - but I'll be sure and add this rationale to a list. Is this one of those "I have a dream..." sort of deals where some year they don't have to publish an ANAM? I personally don't want to be protected from my own actions, from routes, or from the mistakes of others which - hopefully - we all learn very real lessons.
Tar, I hear and see you searching for some common point where both sides might meet and move forward from, but personally I find the denials about the rate lines are being drilled up and the radical disparity between notions of individual and group risk management to be pretty serious impediments. It's about like tribes in the 1800's who tried sending representatives to Wash. DC. for honorable discussions with the US government. Not sure what 'treaty' you could write that wouldn't literally be full of holes before the ink[jet] dries.
Edit: Bob, you're right, we were putting up .12s in the mid-70's just like folks in other places and now I'm just as happy as a clam putting up .10-.11 ground up trad lines 30+ years later. I've never once - not once - climbed for difficulty, only interesting rock and lines. If they happen to be hard so be it, otherwise I could care less.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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For many a seasoned climber, there comes a time when some realize the only chance they have to put everything together and test themselves against the rock is during a ground-up first ascent up an unclimbed piece of rock. It forces them to dig deep into their soul and come up with everything they know and feel to make it up some unknown face.
Top down bolting is a bummer for would-be first ascensionists. Ground-up is slow, hard and dangerous, rap-bolting is fast, easy and safe. Ground-up guy has a harder time nowadays. His dream of climbing unknown terrain gets eaten up quickly by top-down dudes. Where can he go to do first ascents?
Can top-down dudes leave ground-up dudes some space to do their own thing?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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jb - Have you done Southern Belle?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Bob, you're right, we were putting up .12s in the mid-70's just like folks in other places and now I'm just as happy as a clam putting up .10-.11 ground up trad lines 30+ years later.
Joe...the difference is that in those other places they were doing them ground up at the time...weren't most of those routes done on top-rope and if they were you started at the top?
How can you have a top-rope x rated route?? Wouldn't that be a solo?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I appreciate the flavor of a ground up first free ascent, on-sight, and all that yummy stuff.
And I don't agree with this whole notion about it being a selfish endeavor, because if it is conducted within the confines of ground-up territory, the end product is something that makes sense for those who come to repeat it, generally speaking. Southern Belle, the Bachar Yerian: these are exceptions to the rule of ground-up routes in terms of the risk; they are the corner cases.
Just to level the playing field (or perhaps only to trim the lawn back a bit), a couple other things, one from each side, which I find annoyingly off mark:
From Rappel Bolters:
"If you like run outs, you don't have to clip all the bolts on our routes"
-hogwash! For a route to have realistic run out tension, that kind of contrivance won't cut it.
From Ground-up Boys and Girls:
"Why don't you just top rope it, instead of punching in all those bolts?"
-um, no. There is plenty of artistry and tension in leading a sport route, but it is of a different nature, more athletic.
Okay, now that I have that off my chest:
Yes Healyje,
You've outed me!
My whole shtick is about bringing people together. I do not even care about the subsequent state of my first ascents so much; because to me, it's all about that experience of looking into the eyes of those people who were present with me on those adventures. It's transitory.
We are all climbers. Different preferences is one thing, but a fractious, divided and bickering community, heck, WORLD, is not my best hope for us and in some real sense, it scares the crap out of me for our future.
Anyway, yes I like to try to appeal to a model of conflict resolution where possible.
A simple distinction:
We can fight, bargain, argue for positions:
In this case the outcome is such that there is usually a winner and loser.
Alternately, if we choose to do so, we can examine interests, expand our understanding of these and perhaps come to common agreements, yes, compromises.
An example:
We all want to continue bolting, (at least in this context we're discussing).
That is common ground. Those are interests. Interests are more general than positions, not so specific.
To avoid gathering too much notice from the powers that be: this might be required to avoid the shut down of all bolting, so it might behoove us to clean up our profile, so that we don't lose all bolting privileges. That is also an interest and not a position.
So common interests are common ground. And if we care to seek a solution that serves both parties, we start evaluating and valuing these types of things and then try to come to agreements based on their recognition.
Yes I have pretty much said all of this before. No I don't have the answers. But that's not how conflict resolution works; one person doesn't walk in with the answers, the disputants have to step forward and choose to engage the process of understanding one another in hopes of seeking a solution, typically because they believe the standard adversarial process will not serve them.
We don't want a winner and loser; we want both styles to exist and flourish, um, maybe…
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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TiG - I did the first three pitches of Southern Belle with Werner. We got onto the face after the amazing crack (which I couldn't do free - had to aid a bit - 5.12c it is I think).
After a while I knew I wasn't going back up there so I told Middendorf and Shultz about it. I truly thought it might go free and wanted them to have a go at it. I thought they might be able to make it and send a little message to further first ascensionists.
They did.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Joe...weren't most of those routes done on top-rope and if they were you started at the top?"
Yes, many were top roped, but not one of those from the top, or dogged, and not one them got previewed.
"How can you have a top-rope x rated route?? Wouldn't that be a solo?"
Only through the crux on roofs, on really steep stuff you had to worry about the trees both going out and coming back in. One route, "Fear of Flying" did break one back - he made it out through the trees alright, but didn't manage to navigate back through them quite as well.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Yes, many were top roped, but not one of those from the top, and not one them got previewed.
Joe..how can you not top rope from the top??? It is called top-roping because the anchor is above you.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar...you are like Jimmy Carter trying to resolve the Middle East crisis...there is no end in sight. Sadly...this is a 100-500 year war.
:)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, we walked to the top and set anchors, walked to the base and did things ground up. Again, on that steep rock the easiest way to 'bag' those climbs would have been to bolt and dog them - but it simply isn't possible to dog with a top rope on steep rock or roofs.
Having done a lot of TR FA's I'd say we were 'sport' climbing (minus the dogging) way before sport climbing came in. All the more reason why I've never understood the inherent contradiction involved with bolting single pitch routes - either you're into 'the movement' - in which case you should dispense with clipping faux placements and just climb (on a TR) - or, on the other hand, you're into the clipping for clipping's sake for some reason as an weak emulation of placements and 'movement' really isn't as big a deal as it is often claimed to be. And I do understand it is its 'own thing' now, I just don't much care for what it has become; or what would become of the Bastille and Eldo in general if sport climbers had their way with them.
I do, however, agree with you about Tar essentially playing the role of Jimmy Carter in the ME - but that's what I like about both of them - integrity, good intentions, smart with a sense of history, and a willingness to at least try in the face of overwhelming odds. But then, hey, that also sounds like what JB ended up being all about on more than one or two climbs and walked away accomplishing something inspite of the odds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: I do, however, agree with you about Tar essentially playing the role of Jimmy Carter in the ME - but that's what I like about both of them - integrity, good intentions, smart with a sense of history, and a willingness to at least try in the face of overwhelming odds. But then, hey, that also sounds like what JB ended up being all about on more than one or two climbs and walked away accomplishing something inspite of the odds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Jimmy Carter is one of my personal heroes...love the man and what he stands for.
Bachar..along with with others have done a lot for the sport of climbing. The ball is going to keep rolling and the new will carry it when the old can no longer. I also admire what the new breed is doing...some really amazing stuff going on.
Joe...you seem like a good guy..let's hook up the next time you are in my neck of the woods.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, would love to. I'm normally in ABQ every month, although the past three months I haven't while we've been renegotiating with the folks who bought our vendor down there. I've been having to go to Milwaukee instead (bummer). But, we've just about got a new contract in place, so I should be starting to head down that way again soon with stops in Eldo as often as possible. And for that matter, all my gear is in a friend's garage in Vegas and I need to get down there at least once as well. And hell, I also need to get my ass kicked by the locals in the Sandias, while I'm at it. Will let you know when I start heading back down you're way.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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So...what if we said,rap down means hand drill,to slow the pace.Grid bolters would have to consider more thoroughly where they were going to expend their efforts.
Ground up,it seems drills,in conjunction with hooks,allow some additional options,and the pace would be similar.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Slow the pace!?
If this is a good thing, faster is better. Lower down on scaffolding, maybe with air compressor.
Could do maybe 3 routes at once! What are we waiting for.
Plus you could probably get much better deal buying bolts and bits wholesale.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Healyje,
I'm quite sure there is no way ACE, (Action Committee for Eldorado), would ever allow the retro bolting of things like the Bastille Crack, or just about any Eldo classic for that matter.
It's a very preservationist set of controls they have in place, regarding the old classics. As an example: a fellow climber of mine, who fancies himself a guide, (in my opinion more to shore up his self-professed legacy, than to actually make a living as a guide), this person petitioned for ACE to retro bolt the anchors on some of the classic 5.8’s "so they could be guided". (Of course I countered that idea from the fundamental standpoint that the guiding experience should include building anchors). ACE was having none of that idea of adding bolt anchors to classic routes where there is ample opportunity to build an anchor, so from a preservationist standpoint I think they're doing good things to quell any impetus to change those routes.
In understanding why they don't allow ground up bolting, I've indicated a bit of that before; for one, there isn't much legacy of that style of bolting in either Eldorado Canyon or the Flatirons. In the 80s, most of the bolting in the Flatirons, if not all of it, was of the top-down variety purely for sport climbing. So the current model is merely a resumption of that style. (... and I don't think it has anything to do with the death of Goukas on PowerPoint, Higher Cathedral, if that's what you were asking).
Second, they see this as a very limited set of terrain in a Mountain Park setting, very close to urban areas, not so wild at all, and subject to many gentrified climbers of the gym population. So their assertion is, even moderately run out bolted routes would be a liability for those people; and equally as strong, is the assertion that they don't want routes to exclude people, they want a style of access in terms of bolts which accommodates a broader range of users (climbers).
But here's an interesting speculation that might be made about this situation, in light of what is indicated in that last paragraph:
Piton Ron suggested a point about the democratic process up thread: to paraphrase, he asked wouldn't it be more democratic to allow a variety of styles to have their play. I think what we have here in Boulder, (notwithstanding the lack of a lot of historical precedent for ground up bolting), is the analog to the Neocon, which I might call the Neoliberal (keep in mind I'm perhaps not so politically astute). This is a style of liberal who is all in favor of instituting structures which protect us from ourselves. -Now I wonder if that was a loaded pair of statements? ...But it is an interesting thought in terms of how it might be affecting policy here in Boulder.
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jstan
climber
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Roy fairly clearly sketches out the nature of the policy decisions facing us. Depending upon density of population we may be looking at something like a vertical theme park in Eldorado, if you will. I think there is one thing we are carefully ignoring. If you are in a theme park, the equipment fails, and you are injured or killed someone can sue. Who is going to be liable during the years between now and when we reach an insured commercial theme park in Eldorado? Indeed we have commercial and would-be commercial entities interested in creating sport areas all of which are putting customers on bolts installed by god knows whom. Companies producing the personal protective equipment itself have been structuring themselves for years so as to limit their liability. Some even changed their names or created new corporate structures for this reason. How is it the actual placing of bolts has fallen through the cracks? One would think the city of Boulder, now that it is involved administratively in the placing of personal protective equipment, would be very interested in this.
Here in town a young girl suffering epileptic seizures tragically drowned while participating in a city sponsored program. The city was sued for $200,000,000. Would you believe me were I to tell you this taxpayer can't afford that?
Edit:
There was the usual waiver which is easily by-passed through claiming gross negligence.
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