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tbailey
Trad climber
canoga park
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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Everybody needs to " Shut up and climb "
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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Good post Katie.
What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?
She's saying just climb the route and don't let all the bolting controversy get in the way.
It' an awesome location and once you're there all this bullsh!t here starts to fall away.
It's how most people actually climb these days.
Except you supertopo type people ?????
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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I just want to thank everyone for sharing their very important opinions.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jan 13, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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Wow,
Thanks for the report, Katie.
What a day!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 13, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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Food for thought....
Every free route on El Cap has had bolts added, and most of them were placed on rap either from the top or from a belay anchor.
Nobody bitches about the bolts on El Cap.
Basically all stance drilled routes are slab routes. You take the stances that mother nature gives you. We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.
There are probably a good dozen or so free routes on HD that could be discovered on that wall. The only way to stitch the line together is on rap, top down.
I talked to Doug and he told me that he never saw a power drill while he was helping out, so stop the slander on that.
We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.
I've changed my opinion of this route. After the initial argument, we have been reading all about Tommy Caldwell's free routes on El Cap, and those of the Huber Brothers. The way Tommy figured out where the free line is on the Dawn Wall was by swinging all over the place and finding holds where the route could go. Then he put in bolts for pro (although he firmly did NOT put bolts on aid routes other than putting a fatty in a rivet hole).
It is really the only way to go about it now. We have been waiting 20 years or more for the next Southern Belle, and nobody has found one. There is a shitload of rock back there, and routes WILL be put in from the top down. Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc. The only practical way is to scout the line on rappel, swinging around and scouting out a line that will go. No way could you do this ground up.
Geez, I remember doing the Nose the year after the FFA, and the Changing Corners pitch sprouted shiny new 3/8" bolts. Even the last pitch had every single one of Harding's bolts replaced. Yep, there were 3/8" bolts every 4 or 5 feet.
Coz and Kurt Smith did the Muir ground up, Skinner and Piana did the Salathe ground up. As far as I know, all of the others were scouted top down. If Growing Up were on El Cap, nobody would care.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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Some good input, imo. Base. Good to hear different opinions/ perspectives on the subject.
Pretty "sweeping" comments though.
Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.
I don't agree. Alot of climbers out there (here) still willing to risk for reward. Respecting the line. Keeping it real yo.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc
This presupposes an outcome. Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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Quite right that there is no enforcement that prevents particular climbing choices of behavior. As food for thought, however, is it workable to universalize the notion that all of climbing's impactful activities (f*#king up the rock in whatever way we select) can be merely personal activities with personal reasons? IMHO, the answer is no. Would I retrobolt the BY? Would I replace all copperheads with bolts? Why not, if we have already damaged the rock, do it up fully, right? There are self regulating ideas, but there is no bible to hand them down from gen to gen. It's not absolute.
Munge, I agree with you entirely. BUT I disagree with the level of criticism the FA party got. For one, Doug Robinson made the FIRST CLEAN ascent of Half Dome. He was one of the fathers of the Clean Revolution. His actions have saved rock. Saving rock is a big part of who he is. I believe IF there was a way to avoid rap bolting the short bolt ladder, they would do it. In my opinion, they took the top down approach for the upper section of the climb primarily to save rock. If they completed the first half of the wall, as they did, and let it stand, there might me another party who would decide to continue over the blank bulge via a much longer bolt ladder into nowhere. By completing the upper portion from the top they might have eliminated over bolting, and maximized possible free climbing (big part of who is Sean Jones as I understand). Not sure if that was their primary reason or not. In any case, if their goal was to put up an amazing climb that has decent protection and very hard free climbing, they have done it. If a figure like DR, considering things he HAS accomplished in his life, thought it was ok to do, it is fine with me.
I love the OP for being opinionated and expressing his views, but I think if he had something negative to say it would be wiser to talk about it with the FA team in person. This subject is way more complex than top down vs ground up and people like DR don’t deserve such criticism from a bunch of nobodies who have not done a fraction of things that he has done for the community.
In addition, people who have done a part of this climb stated it is incredible and had nothing negative to say about the way it was put up. Hmmmmm.
We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.
After they watched that Hank Caylor video! LOL It is fantastic. Can't get enough.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.
COMPLETE BULLSH#T! On walls if you have enough food/gear the outcome is always a 'success' unless you are a complete noob or the weather comes in. Blank section? Bolt/rivet ladder! Throw in a few hook moves in between, wooooo we have a A3! Crack system peters out? We do a pendulum into another one! No problem. Nailing on walls is hard work, but success is almost always guaranteed. Unless you do something A4-5 where if you blow it, you die. But when was the last time you heard someone getting killed while putting up a A4-5 pitch? People that do, usually know exactly how much they can get away with, and make their own rules. So I think putting up a FA is much easier than repeating someone's climb of high danger/difficulty where you have to work with what you have (not drill more holes etc).
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TMayse
climber
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better. Shhhhh.... Don't talk about this place Base... I enjoy having the place to myself...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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We are talking about a 2000 foot slab. There are no more crack climbs on HD.
SAC, yes, there are some climbers who aren't intimidated by dangerous routes, but from my experience, not many. I know people who can do 5.12 in their sleep who won't do some of the 1981 runout slab routes here. They just won't do it.
That doesn't mean that they aren't good climbers, it is just that slabs aren't exactly in style, and by their nature, stance drilled routes are almost always on a slab. You have to drop both hands to drill. Stance drilling with a power drill takes no time, in comparison.
Anyway, I see very few people doing routes that all of the mere mortals used to run laps on BITD. I couldn't sniff 5.13 in my dreams, but I've done routes that 5.13 climbers aren't interested in.
It is all about caves now. Super overhanging is the style. The type of climbing that Caldwell and Jorgensen are doing on the Dawn wall is downright freaky. If you have ever done an aid route through that area, they are freeing stuff that was impossible to even nail. Since even vertical rock is now called a slab, not many people know how to climb on those micro edges. I've read that they wear out a pair of shoes in a day, and the weather has to be pretty cold to even attempt it.
What they are doing is proud and amazing. The old runout routes were also proud and amazing. I'm just saying that if people don't get their panties in a bunch, there will be new routes up the south face of HD. I hate to say it, but it is far better to scout it top down in order to find where a route will go. Old farts might not like it, but nobody has retro-bolted Southern Belle and likely never will. It is a proud route. They know that.
It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD. The times have changed.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Whoa, never saw the Hankster highlight reel!! Good Find!
I've done MUCH crazy STUPID sh#t too, but certainly didn't have to pay the same body bills that Hank has.
Some of those may feel EXTRA good when you hit 60 or so, eh Hank? Keep on poppin' bro.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD.
This argument seems to presuppose that rap-bolting on El Cap is okay. For many, and I'm that group, it's not okay. But it's happened nonetheless. Not much point in arguing it as the genie can't go back in the bottle. But that doesn't mean that every other cliff should welcome rap-bolts or that I'm inconsistent to speak against it when it comes to HD.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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Could only imagine if this were done by a duo of hotshot Superhuman Brothers
Thought they were firm voices against big lines of bolts at a particular Mexican destination some years back. Emailed around for a bunch of support, offering to go down there and chop them at 'own expense'.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but exactly where has rap bolting been done on El Cap?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
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IMHO: There's plenty of room for rap-down bolting shenanigans on the huge unclimbed East Face of Mt. Watkins, rather than on Half Dome. Some drop of water bolt ladder sieges would yield more interesting results straight up from the huge eyes that Scott Burke went out to explore in the 80s. What's more there are also some traditional ground up stanced bolted lines out there too and nobody seems to be doing them. What's the matter rap-bolters? Two new routes out there in 35 years and no one taking up the gauntlet for some 5.13/14 drop of water lines? Lots of work no doubt, but rap bolters and siege climbers love to work and work and work. Spending a whole summer out there on rappel would be good for the soul (i.e. sole) me thinks.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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Let me ask the panel what would have happened had that been two unknowns, not local to the valley who rapped that in?
Interesting. When people apply for a job, what does an employer do first? They look at your resume. What have you done? Are you qualified for the project this company is working on? Makes sense, no?
People that put up many lines in a place like Yosemite gain credibility. And this should be considered. Take Coz as an example, the only reason people tolerated some of the remarks from him is because he has accomplished a lot in the past. And exactly why Wings of Steel team was harassed – they did not have the resume (credibility) to drill on a sacred rock like El Cap.
So you people are saying we shouldn’t assess if people qualify for something by looking at what they have done in the past? Funny. Well common sense says past should be looked at before making an informed opinion.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 13, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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didn't robinson and the pullharder guys power drill the strassman memorial route?
What, and you think Mike Strassman, who once wrote a guidebook naming, rating, and claiming routes that no one had ever climbed, wouldn't approve of that sort of thing? Methinks a true Strassman memorial would be a bit of a dodgy, shadowed, slander strewn affair.
It's a damned shame that man is dead and gone though, we're all a wee bit poorer for his loss.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 14, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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There is footage of this route in the last masters of stone video that was made.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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Coz and Kurt Smith did the Muir ground up, Skinner and Piana did the Salathe ground up. As far as I know, all of the others were scouted top down. Ever heard of The Prophet?
How about The Secret Passage?
I didn't think so. :-)
Read about them here if you'd like:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/longhf.htm#theprophet
And in general, you are comparing a few free variations on existing El Cap routes with a 1000' rap bolted slab. They are not very similar in my view.
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